Thanks KirstenK - Page 3

azrednex · #51 12/31/2007, 12:36 PM

These are growing pains they will hopefully pass.
Y-DesygnGuy
I know a few people like myself have found other things to do on Sat. because of the crowded nature of the current FRAG meetings.
There are only a couple of ways to fix this. One is splitting up the group , which seems to be a natural progression being that I hear a lot of *****ing about the location lately.
The other is to find a larger venue. ( I support dues for this venture, BTW).

moore_rb · #52 12/31/2007, 12:46 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by jerryz
To answer Jesse's question earlier I would be more than happy to participate in leadership.

Then why haven't you already started a club? What remaining barriers do you face?

Quote:

Originally posted by jerryz
I guess the question is, has FRAG and Phoenix for that matter matured enough to support some sort of structure.
[/B]

The simple solution here might be to post a poll, and ask the question to the community as a whole. Notice I didn't say club, because FRAG in not a club, it is a community. Participation is voluntary, discretionary, and open to anyone, which is never the case with a "formal" club.

Quote:

Originally posted by jerryz
if FRAG is ever going to be anything other than a swap meet for corals then it needs to look at who and what it is along with who and what we are. [/B]

My question is: who has decided that FRAG needs to be more than what it is?

Quote:

Originally posted by jerryz
In terms of the benefits of these things. Phil hit some of them on the head. However, I think the largest is retention. How long does someone stay with FRAG? In terms of membership, turnover is pretty high. Has anyone thought about why? A continuous influx of new people is fantastic... where are old timers? Providing enhanced opportunities for them is one area of potential member retention. [/B]

This is only my personal point of view, but I think many of the old-timers get burned out by the inter-personal issues that arise as a by product of this group's success. If I were to ride off into the sunset, I know this would be my personal reason why....

Quote:

Originally posted by jerryz
every success comes from the failures that went before. B]

I absolutley agree with this statement. I'm still questioning why now is the right time to re-attempt the very practices that led to the failures of before?

Jerry, I respect/applaud you for speaking your mind, and although you and I disagree on this topic, I know we have also agreed an many other topics in the past. Please understand that I harbor no personal animosity in this matter, and I am trying to ensure that my arguments in this debate orbit around the central theme.

I don't think anyone is opposed to anyone else starting a club. I say if you have the initiative, then take the chance. Get an LLC or S-Corp, organize a meeting place, and go to town, but in doing so, don't start castigating those of us who don't care to pay dues, or who only want a social experience or frag trade out of their monthly gathering.

Y-DesygnGuy · #53 12/31/2007, 12:46 PM

azrednex--
Oh I hear ya and i understand what your saying, but "text" does not always show the inflection in ones voice. From reading it, it sounds as if the "West Side" people have ruined the east side peoples fun.

And of course some people are going to complain about having to drive, we are all human of course and we all think the world revolves around us... well at least I do

Totally understand what you mean though, the auction in November I went to was "small" from what I read and it was still packed, so i get ya. A bigger room for everyone I think would fix that feeling, but there is no way to please everyone with this.

I am going to both regardless

twice as much fun, twice as much to learn and twice as many people to talk with. But if you start to put geographical limitations on people, (Oh you live on this side of the valley you can not come to our meeting) the entire thing will go in the toilet I think.

But again the title of the thread was to thank kirstenk for all her hard work, from these three pages alone should tell everyone what she was up against!!

*CHEERS* to everyone who is giving input on how they want to see things go in the new year! We need to have open communication and find out what everyone thinks that way the end solution will be the best ( I hope ).

OwenInAZ · #54 12/31/2007, 01:01 PM

Kirstin -- I'm not saying you haven't done a good job in getting FRAG off the ground into a functioning group. I see the evidence of that in terms of attendence at the monthly meetings and the activity on this forum. However, to say that just because I'm new to the hobby/group I can't recognize a problem when I see it is absurd.

I love going to the meetings -- I've made friends there and gotten some wicked cool frags (several of them for free when I was a complete and utter n00b). Moreover, who doesn't like a grownup dressing as an anemone?

I just think that it would be good for the group as a whole to progress into something more substantial.

As I said earlier, if the majority of the members of FRAG don't want to move in that direction, it won't happen. I don't have a personal stake in the group, so no matter what happens I'm not going to take it personally. I'll still come to the meetings, I'll still trade what little I can, I'll still drink beer, I'll still have a good time with and learn from people who know more than me.

In terms of choosing a new person to lead PROP, I'd like it if Adrian would do it, too. I hope she keeps up the enthusiasm that Kirstin has shown. I also hope she'll work to better the club beyond what it is now. I'm not suggesting, of course, that I don't think the group is great already. But we have before us an opportunity to mature as a FRAG entity, and I don't think we ought to pass that up.

moore_rb · #55 12/31/2007, 01:07 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Y-DesygnGuy
azrednex--
Oh I hear ya and i understand what your saying, but "text" does not always show the inflection in ones voice. From reading it, it sounds as if the "West Side" people have ruined the east side peoples fun.

This a is a very important point to discuss, and I'm only going to speak my own point of view. Others can agree with me if my expereince matches theirs, or you can all call me a snob...

"west-siders" haven't ruined anyone's fun. When the fun has been tainted, it is typically by the introduction of a disruptive person who feels the need to act a bit too juvenile in the forum, or derives pleasure by "stirring the pot" in the community, or who just outright enjoys getting under other people's skin.

Like it or hate it, the fact is that many of these individuals live (or did live) in the west valley. It's the classic "one bad apple spoils the bunch" mentality, and many of the other west-siders who are productive, grown up, socially respectful people have paid an unfair price for this, because you are labelled along with the bad seeds.

After reading Y-DesygnGuy's post, I started thinking about all the people I interact with regularly at FRAG meets, and I found that I have no personal bias toward east siders or west siders, or north central-siders (we don;t want to exclude Van, WideFX and ZMAN2000 from of this discussion

)

If the west side folks want to start holding regular meetings, then it should be purely for geographical convenience, and not to promote social or "class" separation, because that would be extremely disheartening to those who just want to hang out with cool people once a month, regardless of "which side of the tracks" they are from.

Ron1955 · #56 12/31/2007, 01:18 PM

I think the idea of a east and west side meeting is sort of a benefit in a lot of ways for all of us. First each side had the more convienent drive to the meets, has fellow reefers that are a lot closer to one another to help each other, trade etc. But also if the dates are different for east and west meetings it enables the two groups to attend one anothers meets if they decide to drive that time. I do think like some that no matter what you do it wont satisfy all but again if a meet spot is used that apparently is to small now for a group why not move it even the same area just a larger spot after all most of us like comfort not standing crowded don't you? I know this group is to strong to crumble it will vent its thoughts and go on as it is one of the best groups I have seen anywhere. And who ever runs the show im sure the old show runner will offer to help get things going smooth if you only ask she seems more than willing to help a transition go graeat for the group.

JMCAquarium · #57 12/31/2007, 01:19 PM

"If the west side folks want to start holding regular meetings, then it should be purely for geographical convenience, and not to promote social or "class" separation, because that would be extremely disheartening to those who just want to hang out with cool people once a month, regardless of "which side of the tracks" they are from."

In regards to the whole west side east side issue. I have attended meetings east and west. I have found all the meetings educational and a good time. I have met many new friends and learned more than I could have searching on the net. I don’t think that this should boil down to a east vs west issue. There are simply some people on the west side that for whatever reason are unable to attend the east side meetings, as I am sure if the meetings were always west there would be east siders that could not attend.
It is important to try to include everyone from around the valley, after all is it not the goal of FRAG to unite as one and help each other. There should be no boundaries placed on who can attend what meeting, as I intend to attend the east as well as the west side meetings when possible, and I am sure there are many others that feel the same way.
Its not about or should not be about sides, it should be about learning, building relationships as a group and helping each other out. We are a diverse group with years of experience at various levels, this is invaluable!!! and it needs to be fostered, bickering about things is not a way to foster growth, acting like mature adults and meeting the issues head on and solving them is the way to go..
my 2 cents

OwenInAZ · #58 12/31/2007, 01:23 PM

If the west side folks want to start holding regular meetings, then it should be purely for geographical convenience, and not to promote social or "class" separation, because that would be extremely disheartening to those who just want to hang out with cool people once a month, regardless of "which side of the tracks" they are from.

I agree completely.

Fliger · #59 12/31/2007, 01:25 PM

Just remember the vast majority of the "LE" corals here in the valley reside in the east siiiii-eeede.

KIDDING.

I forgot all about all that FRAG/PROP drama. Thanks KK for all the work. I have no idea who Adrian is but women are much smarter than men so I'm all for it ....

JMCAquarium · #60 12/31/2007, 01:28 PM

"women are much smarter than men so I'm all for it ...."

Amen, learned young did you Fliger? lol

Zoa_Princess · #61 12/31/2007, 01:30 PM

Kirsten
Thanks for being so helpful to me when I was just starting out, and I"ll buy you a beer the next time I see you. After reading this thread I think you need one or maybe two.

To my understanding this was always about trading, and selling corals so that more people could enjoy them in their tanks "for fun" and so you could meet others that share the same intrests as you. Everyone just meets, trades, sell coral, drinks a few, gossips alot, humps a few cars, has fun. Don't try to make it more than it is. Why change what is working? If you really want to Why not make a zoa meeting? A lps meeting? A sps meeting? A ric meeting? A softies meeting? The list could go on. Kirsten found what works lets just keep with that and make small changes when needed (example if a speaker is wanted...sell tickets or take a collection/donation...if it is wanted so badly the monies should be easy to come up with)

Once again Kirsten you do a great job and I don't think anyone could fill your shoes.

widefx · #62 12/31/2007, 01:35 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Zoa_Princess
Kirsten
Thanks for being so helpful to me when I was just starting out, and I"ll buy you a beer the next time I see you. After reading this thread I think you need one or maybe two.

To my understanding this was always about trading, and selling corals so that more people could enjoy them in their tanks "for fun" and so you could meet others that share the same intrests as you. Everyone just meets, trades, sell coral, drinks a few, gossips alot, humps a few cars, has fun. Don't try to make it more than it is. Why change what is working? If you really want to Why not make a zoa meeting? A lps meeting? A sps meeting? A ric metting? A softies meeting? The list could go on. Kristen found what works lets just keep with that and make small changes when needed (example if a speaker is wanted...sell tickets or take a collection/donation...if it is wanted so badly the monies sould be easy to come up with)

Once again Kristen you do a great job and I don't think anyone could fill your shoes.

I agree

But what is that in the bold mean

Zoa_Princess · #63 12/31/2007, 01:39 PM

:P I thought I would lighten the mood a bit!

Fliger · #64 12/31/2007, 01:40 PM

Yeah what the heck is car humping? I did a quick google and this was the top response

http://members.tripod.com/hotrain9/id20.htm

And I thought we Kansans had cornered the market on making fun out of nothing.

Zoa_Princess · #65 12/31/2007, 01:45 PM

omg!!!! I have only seen 1 person do that! too funny!
That was a ice breaker!!!!

Ron1955 · #66 12/31/2007, 03:19 PM

I wont post another post here since your one member thinks that a new person should keep their mouth shut and told me not to let the door hit me on the way out, this seemed like a nice group but as seen now the longer members dont like anyone talking about the group and giving opinions. I was hoping to join the group meets but most likely not now as it is bad to get private emails stating such to you when all your doing is giving an opinion

Philwd · #67 12/31/2007, 04:10 PM

Why do people leave this hobby? As Jerry said retention is a big issue. Partly burnout from all the argueing and interpersonal conflict. This hobby seems to bring out more passion... But partly also because it is so difficult and so easy to lose everything. And financial circumstances change. All those reasons apply to people I first came to know 4 years ago. None really relate to whether we have a formal club or not. Well maybe a couple since there were the "PROP" discussions.
We have sort of a chicken and egg situation here. It's really tough, near impossible, to find a spot to meet that will accomodate 70-100 people without paying. On the other hand we will not have near that many people showing up if dues were charged. So FRAG could possibly not meet the rent.
I don't think the west siders have ruined anything. They have been an integral part of FRAG's success. When any group grows there will be the inevitable complaints about drive and dates since not everyone can make Sat for example. I don't think anyone is trying to drive the West Siders away. If they want to meet on thier own all the power to them. It shows the hobby is growing. Go West young man!!

To Ron and Kathy. Don't let one person chase you away. Do what the rest of us do. If you don't like someone smile nicely at the meetings and sit with some others and have a good time. We'd all love to meet you and share experiences.

Ron1955 · #68 12/31/2007, 04:38 PM

Thanks Phil, we wont drive away we just could not believe because we gave opinions that we would be told a few things since we are new and not attended any meets we have no say so or no right to voice opinions. Well I hope to meet you Phil sometime also.

azrednex · #69 12/31/2007, 07:07 PM

nevermind.

OwenInAZ · #70 12/31/2007, 08:24 PM

Don't worry, Phil is a cool guy. He won't chase you away

badfish · #71 12/31/2007, 09:43 PM

Thanks Kirsten for what you have helped FRAG become. Like others in this thread have stated, Frag back in the day was a far cry from what it is now.
At the time i lived in Surprise and the drive from there to Round table pizza was a drag. Not to mention there was not much room for us. And there was not many of us.
That being said i am stoked only having to drive to Scottsdale. There is a lot more room and the location is as close as central as its going to be.
Some say that the room is to crowed at the meetings. Thats true some times. There are other times when there is not much of a showing at all. Thats fine with me! I get to buy nice pieces for half the price than what they would usually go for.
Phil stated that there where around 7-8 members who showed up to FRAG when it first formed and all those people are gone. I had taken a year off in the reef scene just to come back to a whole new crowd. 90% of the people i knew and looked up to were gone.
AZDesertrat was one of the few people i reconized when i did return here. I was in DMS when he was acting president. DMS was different than what FRAG is. It was more focused on lectures, pictorials, and other things of that nature. There was some trading going on but not like the FRAG of today.
Frag of today. Why fix what is not broken. Sure work shops would be cool but we do not need FRAG for that. Come over to Denny's house with us to make some fake rock. (January 5) Sorry for the plug.

I would like to see FRAG west get off the ground and succeed. Its 2 miles from me. Why wouldnt I?

Have a Happy New Years every body!

kirstenk · #72 12/31/2007, 11:44 PM

Glad to see this thread has not deteriorated.

Quote:

Originally posted by Philwd
Why do people leave this hobby? As Jerry said retention is a big issue.

A lot of people who attend FRAG for awhile fall into a category I call "Takers". These people are not interested in any long term involvement. They come to this forum, find out about the generosity that many people have, use this generosity to get equipment, stock their tank etc. and then leave. They have no interest in passing the good will on to the next reefer. Bigger, better meeting places, formal, informal, none of that is gonna change this type of person's mind and there are lots and lots of these type people. I have watched them come and go for years. Its not the way FRAG is run..........its them.

The only burnout I have experienced is from my interactions with these type people.

kirstenk · #73 12/31/2007, 11:57 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Philwd
To Ron and Kathy. Don't let one person chase you away. Do what the rest of us do. If you don't like someone smile nicely at the meetings and sit with some others and have a good time. We'd all love to meet you and share experiences.

DITTO!!

FRAG seems to have an uprising of this sort every so often. Don't let it get to you. We are a big group so there will always be some conflicts as ya can't please everyone.

Ron1955 · #74 01/01/2008, 12:27 AM

Thank you Kerstenk I appreciate the welcome I live by the cardinal stadium but if I am off on days of meets I will drive if I dont get lost lol being new here still not great on gettin around yet. I would love to meet people and learn, I did have several reef tanks in St Louis from 38 to 110 all did good on mud filter no skimmer but I may have had gods luck as I am not near smart enouogh to understand all the perimaters a tank should be just had them running great for long lengths witout a problem I can not wait to get going again.
thank you and hopefully some time we can meet.

thefireking · #75 01/01/2008, 01:29 AM

kirstenk,

Simply - Thanks! You are a great help, and we appreciate you. I look forward to seeing you at more future FRAG events. First meeting you dressed as an anemone was a good 1st impression.

That's all, just thank you. ;-)