Pointless (but cool) possible DIY

[BeanAnimal]

Why said they were equivalent acts. The POINT was that sometimes the input of others is worth much more than a self taught lesson.

FWIW
There is no problem hooking the ATO so that it delivers to the display. The POINT is simple. To hook it up through a mist or rain system gains you no beneift. The OP indicated that he would like it to also drop the salinity to mimic the ocean. That is NOT what happens in the ocean

There is no problem making waves or varying the intensity of the waves. There is benefit in water movement. Changing the patters and/or intensity can help strengthen corals and keep detritus (food) in suspension for livestock and the filter.

Turning out the lights and popping a flash strobe several times is good for stressing the fish. I don't see any benefit. I don't see any argument for any benefit, other than the pleasure of the OP who wants to see the fish freak out like they do in the wild.

Of course those of us who photgraph our tanks may use flashes and that in itself is likely an added stress. I am sure that my fish can hear the bass from the sub in my home theater. They hide when it rummbles the house. Shall I place the sub right next to the tank to simulate thunder?

Have a nice Thanksgiving folks. What an odd, but fun thread.

[Mastermind]

Originally posted by BeanAnimal
I have a spare 8000 horsepower Keith Black fuel motor laying around. It is a 496 with a GM 671 blower and a Chet Herbert cam. I am thinking of tossing it into my 1968 Jeep CJ-5. I can't afford a fuel cell, so will just use the stock gas tank. I think roll cages and driveshaft loops are over rated and really don't have the cash to upgrade the suspension. The rear shackles should hold and that dana 44 rearend is bullet proof! I have NEVER seen an 8000 HP street legal Jeep CJ-5 and think it might be a neat idea. My buddy bet me $500 that I couldn't hit 200 on the freeway without turning it over. Sure it is possible that I will get hurt or hurt somebody else but if you don't try new things how do you know they are bad ideas?

Look, I respect your assumed knowledge in home reef systems. But comparing an 8000hp short wheelbase Jeep with no safety precautions can NOT be compared to what I'm doing here. You're comparing lack of safety to trying something new. There is nothing unsafe about what I'm doing. There's nothing stupid about what I'm doing. I'm trying something new; untested waters. NHRA and most other sanctioning bodies put safety rules in place (rollcages, driveshaft loops, helmets, harnesses etc, etc) because it's proven (not to mention common sense) that if you're running 11.99 or faster (depending on the track) something can happen, and you'll probably end up killing yourself or others without said equipment. Now, tell me how safety equipment for racing at all relates to what I'm trying to do here.

Before you respond, let me remind you: Your example has been PROVEN time and time again. Mine has never been touched.


Discuss.

[Conesus_Kid]

Originally posted by BeanAnimal
Why said they were equivalent acts. The POINT was that sometimes the input of others is worth much more than a self taught lesson.

FWIW
There is no problem hooking the ATO so that it delivers to the display. The POINT is simple. To hook it up through a mist or rain system gains you no beneift. The OP indicated that he would like it to also drop the salinity to mimic the ocean. That is NOT what happens in the ocean

FWIW:
The OP never mentioned his intent was to drop salinity. You may want to reread the initial post.

As far as "stressing" fish goes:
We all do it inadvertently, but they do seem to acclimate to the stresses we put on them. When I go downstairs and turn on the basement lights in my family room (tank's in the basement), watch a movie with the volume loud, or if my daughters decide to put on an impromptu Hannah Montana lip sync concert two feet from the tank, I'm sure the fish don't "like" it. None of these things cause stress to the point where the fish aren't vibrant. I'd guess that they've somewhat become acclimated to captive life, and those "surprises" are just part of it.

I'm not arguing that there are benefits to this, I'm just seeing molehill where you seem to be seeing a mountain.

Happy Turkey!

[Mastermind]

Originally posted by BeanAnimal

FWIW
There is no problem hooking the ATO so that it delivers to the display. The POINT is simple. To hook it up through a mist or rain system gains you no beneift. The OP indicated that he would like it to also drop the salinity to mimic the ocean. That is NOT what happens in the ocean

This is NOT what I said, please re-read my original post. I stated that the system would introduce fresh water back into the system, yes, simulating rain. No where did I state that I wanted it to drop salinity. BUT, contrary to that, it WILL drop salinity. What happens when you add fresh water to salt water? The salinity drops. This is what an ATO is there for.

[BeanAnimal]

Originally posted by Mastermind
Look, I respect your assumed knowledge in home reef systems. But comparing an 8000hp short wheelbase Jeep with no safety precautions can NOT be compared to what I'm doing here.

You miss the point. Of course they are not the same. The POINT (how many times can I say it) is that sometimes what appears to one to be a good idea is CLEARLY not to somebody that may be more informed.

You're comparing lack of safety to trying something new. There is nothing unsafe about what I'm doing. There's nothing stupid about what I'm doing. I'm trying something new; untested waters. NHRA and most other sanctioning bodies put safety rules in place (rollcages, driveshaft loops, helmets, harnesses etc, etc) because it's proven (not to mention common sense) that if you're running 11.99 or faster (depending on the track) something can happen, and you'll probably end up killing yourself or others without said equipment. Now, tell me how safety equipment for racing at all relates to what I'm trying to do here.

So that is why we got thrown out off of the property at Darlington for running a low 10 without a proper roll cage, catch can, 5 point, remote disconnect, etc. Then again we said our dial in was in 12.99 Hrmm go figure. Somebody knew more than we thought we did!

Please don't confuse the scenarios with the logic

Yes there are safety regulation that have been proven effective. I still don't know anybody who has put an 8000 fuel motor in a street legal CJ-5.

Now lets look at what you propose. You say nobody has simulated lightning for a home reef. Maybe not. But we know by observation that fish are stressed by bright light. We know that they behave erratically when confronted with a bright light. We know stress can be very harmful to fish and other invertebrates. We are told to introduce new livestock in the dark so that they do not go into shock under the bright lights. We can come up with many proven examples of stress being bad for our livestock.

So just the same as the drag racing example... we can, with a high degree of certainty, predict the likely outcome of our hypothesis. You will stress your fish and I will endanger myself and others with my short wheel based death mobile.

Before you respond, let me remind you: Your example has been PROVEN time and time again. Mine has never been touched.

Just covered that Enough is known about both subjects to predict the likely outcome of the project.

Again, I don't have a problem with ideas or trying new things. In this case, there is just nothing to gain. Why invent a rube goldberg device to top-off your tank? What does it get you? Why freak out the fish with a flash bulb? What does it get you?

Instead why not spend the DIY brain cells and come up with a reliable wave device that will simulate tides and storms. Come up with a controller that can provide a natural sunrise and sunset, moonrise and moonset and tides. You have a much better chance of increasing the health of your livestock in that manner.

I don't think your idea is "bad" I just think it is silly. What we know about fish and inverts coupled with common sense backs that up.

Also FWIW, I first hand know what over 800HP does in a CJ-5 and a CJ-7. I used to enjoy building them along with my roomates 10 second 68' Camaro, that was street legal. I also know, first hand what a broken driveshaft can do and am glad the car was heavy enough to not turn into an olympic pole vault record holder.

As for the tesla coil... never built one. I did build one hell of a Jacobs ladder though. I also got in a lot of trouble on a field trip in high school. I was the "volunteer" who got to place a hand on a huge Vandegraff generator. I took my hand off before being grounded (against the orders of the demonstrator). Laughing I pointed my little metal tipped finger at her nose. Needless to say I zapped the hell out of the lady with a foot long spark that jumped right to her nose. I suppose you would get tossed out of school these days for a stunt like that.

[scaryperson27]

Most of Beans posts that I have seen whether they be directed to towards me or someone else, have always been him disagreeing with other people. Get used to it.

He does bring up some pretty good points but I remain neutral on the whole subject.

It would be interesting to study the behaviors of the reef environment during thunderstorms, and try to replicate the behaviors in the aquarium however I don't think it would have enough of an effect to justify doing it.

[JCTewks]

I'll have to just add that this thread has by far the funniest things i've ever read from Bean Animal....I about pee'd my self 4 times reading this

now, please continue

[LooklikeME]

Originally posted by Mastermind
This is NOT what I said, please re-read my original post. I stated that the system would introduce fresh water back into the system, yes, simulating rain. No where did I state that I wanted it to drop salinity. BUT, contrary to that, it WILL drop salinity. What happens when you add fresh water to salt water? The salinity drops. This is what an ATO is there for.

Your salinity would change only if you added to much fresh water as the salt does not evaporate only the water.

[BeanAnimal]

Most of Beans posts that I have seen whether they be directed to towards me or someone else, have always been him disagreeing with other people.

Nonsense.

I spend most of my time helping people. You just have sour grapes because I have called you out for being outwardly rude to people who you feel can't speak English or have poor writing skills. I forgot about it and have moved on, maybe you could do the same?

As far as the behavior of a reef during a thunderstorm, I do agree that observing the animals would be interesting. I would imagine that the average reef sees little effect of the storm. Increased currents maybe. The lightning would not be as defined (depending on depth of course) and the salinity would not change. Lagoon type reefs may be a different story as far as light and salinity.

LooklikeMe, no the salinity would not change if he used it as an ATO. It may swing a good bit in a tank that small, depending on how the ATO is setup.

[APISTOBORELLI]

I'm not going to continue reading this thread. It's too bad too, sounds like a good topic. Bean, you're way too harsh. Relax a little. Let the guy try it out, what harm can come of it?

[APISTOBORELLI]

I'm not going to continue reading this thread. It's too bad too, sounds like a good topic. Bean, you're way too harsh. Relax a little. Let the guy try it out, what harm can come of it?

[jerryz]

While I have no idea if this has an impact on corals or marine fish. It is indeed well documented that freshwater species like the corydoras genus of catfish and the common goldfish can be induced to spawn by thunderstorms. It's not the rain per se, but the infusion of fresh cool water that kicks off the cycle.

It's entirely possible, in fact not an unreasonable hypothesis that marine reef fish, especially those from tidal zones, may have similar sorts of spawning triggers. Be it from the reduced temp, surface agitation, slight rise in salinity, or even the increased turbidity of the water.

Also the "salinity of the water in a specific area can vary greatly. Especially along coastlines where runoff from land can contribute to localized salinity drops. Numerous citations available. I personally like an ieee syudy regarding the impact this sort of hyposalinity caused by rain run off from a river delta in Austrailia on reefs. ieeexplore.ieee.org/iel5/8479/26716/01191943.pdf

From personal experience the lagoons of the Yucatan peninsula are often filled with both fresh and saltwater and getting between the thermocline layers is fun when diving but the fish seem to move about freely, and there are many fish.

On a side note Bean... I've always respected your input in these forums as it tends to be inciteful and well thought out. However, in this thread you appear to have piled on without really having a well thought position. I'm sure you were aware of the things I've mentioned above. So I'm curious about why your resonse was so harsh.

[BeanAnimal]

Yes of course I am aware that salinity does change in many reefs, sometimes rather quickly.

I also do not disagree that the animals will react to events like thunderstorms.

I would not at all be surprised if one day somebody came along and proved that clams only spawn on the "4th thunderstorm of the season" or some oddball thing like that. The point was never to argue any differently.

Our small captive systems are vastly different than the ocean. Just because something is "natural" does not mean that it should be included. Just because something occurs in nature with little consequence does not mean that we can get away with it in our systems.

For example: The same mechanisms that buffer salinity changes in the reef may not exist in our systems. The overall stress level in our captive systems may be higher (closer to some threshold) than it is in the wild. Events that would normally not cause harm in the ocean can be damaging in our systems.

In any case: (as mentioned)

I just don't understand going through the trouble of making a "rain top-off". What benefit does it gain for what trouble? Sure if it makes the OP happy then great.

I just don't understand the desire to fire flash bulbs in a dark tank to simulate lightning. The OP has already noticed that it freaks the fish out. Why do it on purpose? To what benefit? Why add a stressor when at the same time trying to ensure that our livestock is healthy? I just don't get it.

Let me try and make this clear. If the OP (or anybody) had a legitimate hypotheses and a means to test it with valid results, then it would not be a bad idea. Flashing a strobe into a 40 gallon tank with some rain really does not fit the model

There are just some ideas that are not well thought out. Interesting maybe, but in the end likely not something that should be followed through with.

I wrote software to simulate sunrise and sunset over my tank for any longitude and latitude. I did so for my enjoyment. I am not sure if the fish could give a hoot. I do know that my maroon clown is MUCH less destructive with a gradual sunrise. When I used to kick the MHs on cold turkey it (the clown) would cause a sandstorm and attack other fish.

Some may argue and make valid points that my project is and was a waste of time. It may be! I can at least say that logic tells us that it will not harm the fish

I don't really care what the OP does to his fish. I suppose the reason I have posted here is due to the responses that the OP got from some people.

It bothers me that no matter how silly an idea is, people line up to cheer it on. People line up to goad somebody on and at the same time they (the goaders) demonstrate a lack of understanding of the subject. "Looks cool to me man, just do it!". They can not wait to label anybody who disagrees as a "basher" or "harsh". Most of the "harsh" comments are in response to that type of post. Notice how informed posts like your get a different kind of response? We could have a long discussion about the OPs ideas and go back and forth on the pros and cons. As soon as the "just do it man" folks show up, things deteriorate. Anything you say, no matter how well informed or well intentioned is "bashing". It is nonsense.

So we have those who are more than happy to discuss the subject and attempt to make valid points. That ends up in interesting dialog (like your post). We also have those who just want to see somebody else jump... jump... jump.... They tend to derail the conversation because they could care less about anything other than seeing the guy jump.

MY intentions here were not to be harsh or be mean. The OP posted an idea and I feel that it (as HE stated himself) is pointless within the context of they way HE proposed it. In the context of science and a different approach, we can certainly have a different conversation.

Have a nice day everyone... Its turkey time!

[Rosseau]

Hear Hear!

[Drag Racer]

Ok Bean all your point are valad. Your probably right. But instead of shrooting down the whole theory, what about the benefit of just adding the top off water as rain water? Can that be a beneficial addition because it will cause a gas exchange in the water? Him adding extral waves to the surface? That can be benefitial I think. There can be some benefits to what hes trying. The lightning maybe flash has been proven to stress some fish out (some of my fish can care less about the flash), what im trying to say is insted of shooting down the entire idea maybe you can steer him in a better direction. There can be some positive thing he is trying to accomplish. Rain water as a top off may prove to have no positive effect (or negative) but may be a neat way of adding the water for visual effect. No harm no foul to the tank. I think it could be good because you not addding the consentration of ro water to one are its spred out in a rain water fashion. Im not here to bash anyones ideas or to tell them how to do something because im no expert (no one is).

[BeanAnimal]

Originally posted by Drag Racer
what about the benefit of just adding the top off water as rain water? Can that be a beneficial addition because it will cause a gas exchange in the water?

Sure it could help gas exchange. But for the amount of trouble there are much easier ways to accomplish that as well. Not a bad idea, but as I stated I just can't seem to come up with a good reason for it. Maybe one of you can

Him adding extral waves to the surface? That can be benefitial I think.

Again, nobody said that water movement was NOT a good idea. This has nothing to do with the "lightning" or "rain" which were what most of the discussion was about. I love dump boxes myself, but just can't come to grips with the salt creep.

As for the rest of your response, we have been through that several times already. My last post pretty much answers your comments.

I would however ask you to look up the word "bashing" and try to gain some context as to what it means and how it has nothing to do with what has gone on here. I am not being condescending at all. With ever increasing frequency people misuse that word. Nobody is a victim here and nobody has been bashed.

Go eat your turkey and crescent rolls! I am fininshing up some work and waiting on family.

[Drag Racer]

Well I'm not calling anyone a basher (I know some have) I think your input to the topic is beneficial, and I would appreciate your input to anything I was trying to do. Just when reading your posts they can sometimes come of as harsh responses as to how you read them. Ive read over your posts a few times and each time I read them I take the information your presenting a different way. sometimes good sometimes bad. Either way people do respect your input (well I do anyways) Just need to tone down the comparisons a little and people will take your input a little more serious (8000hp street legal CJ7 LMAO)

[jerryz]

Thanks for the response Bean. Have a great Thanksgiving. And I do agree with you on the strobes by the way. I would be very suspect of their value. Also on the fact that people are very quick to cheer on any and every thing they hear. Or my personal pet peeve, suggest the impractical, irresponsible, or silly as an "improvement" to someones plan or project. Which by the way is why I do see your input as valuable.

[LooklikeME]

The name of the top is"Pointless (but cool) possible DIY"To me a "mini lighting storm" would be cool and when you add a ATO to it as rain SUPER COOL!!!Most zoo's have a rain forest display and they have periods of storms with the same affects as the OP's idea.Do the Zoo's have to have all the effects no.They could just spray the water in the area and call it a day.Instead they have a "WOW" effect.The animals need the water and humidity so why not delivery it to them in a natural way.I'll be doing this to my tank for the "WOW" effect.Just my 2 cent

[BeanAnimal]

I just don't have the enery to respond anymore. The utter lack of logic with the "go for it folks" is a bit scary.

[Conesus_Kid]

Originally posted by BeanAnimal
I just don't have the enery to respond anymore.

Good.

On with the thread:

Mastermind:

I don't have any input on the lights, but I'm thinking a spraybar (either purchased or DIY) would suit your needs for water delivery. If you could somehow mount it above the waterline and have a good, pressure rated pump for delivery, it may provide the surface agitation you're looking for.

I would also recommend putting the lighting portion of this system on a timer. Thunderstorms aren't a daily occurrence, and you certainly don't want to have a "thunderstorm" every time your float switch trips.

Keep us posted.

[aninjaatemyshoe]

I've thought of doing this very thing before, for aesthetics only (didn't rationalize it as having any husbandry benefit). I honetly don't see the harm in it so long as it is implemented correctly.

As far as stressing the fish, it has been my experience that most fish can quickly get used to things that at first spook the crap out of them as long as they are healthy and thriving. For example, my cat loves to get right beside the aquarium and quickly lunge for any fish that come by. At first this scared my clowns like mad, but after awhile they just got used to him doing this when they realized they weren't in any real danger. Now they just cruise by my cat as if he isn't there. I imagine that they would similarly get used to the similated rainstorm rather quickly.

I think the things one should mainly consider in terms of such a setup would be the potential salinity swing and the effect of having spraying water over your tank. The salinity swing wouldn't be any more of an issue than usual if you just had it acting as your ATO. However, that might not really give you a very long simulation. The spraying water, however, would be probably an issue for most. Undoubtably you would have salt creep, likely on your lights and reflectors. For my current tank, this is unnacceptable and ultimately why I did not do this. Now, if my lights were better guarded from such a thing, I would seriously have done it. I probably would have used something that drips instead of sprays. For a flashing light, I would have looked into either camera flashes or more likely an LED array programmed to do so.

Also, in tropical areas, thunderstorms are often a daily occurence.

[aninjaatemyshoe]

As a side note, I've also considered hooking up a fogging machine over my tank to simulate cloud cover. I would use one of those ultrasonic fogger units (the kind they use for terrariums) in a freshwater reservoir that would sit above my tank. The unit would be on a timer to activate occasionally and create a cool cloud effect. The only harm I'd see in it would be that it may raise the temp of the tank by interfering with evaporation...

[madadi]

i've also thought about the fog thing as cloud cover, the only worry id have is that the fog will come over the top of the tank or create too much moisture in the hood to mess with the lights.

to run top-off trough the rain simulator it just seems that it would create a storm too often, if i really wanted to do it, i would do it with my weekly water changes. i would automatically drain the old water and the new water can be introduced trough a spray bar like mentioned. this can be used in conjunction with a strobe light for lighting and a few extra powerheads to simulate more turbulent water like during a thunder storm. since more water is used during a water change then when toping off, a longer storm simulation is maybe more noticeable by the tank inhabitants?

[samtheman]

How about raising the temperature and seeing if you can simulate a bleaching event? How cool would that be?