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#501
12/09/2007, 09:27 PM
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Yes, a top performing bulb and ballast combo with a top performing reflector. Performance is the key, not cost (of either system).
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#503
12/09/2007, 09:54 PM
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Sure you'd use a little more up-to-date technology, electronic ballast or something and decent reflectors, although it seems most are within a similar price of one another. But to compare it dollar for dollar against a halide system would not be fair since half(Or more?) of the argument of LEDs are their longevity and "energy savings". So a little more fair of a test is to compare again a halide system that has those additional costs factored in (X years worth of bulbs, Y kWh more worth of electricity). Granted I'm quite skeptical of LED technology as it is today, I don't buy the longevity aspect until these high powered LEDs have in fact been around for that many years, and still don't buy the fact that they don't heat your tank up. (Btw if these have been covered forgive me, I jumped from July to December in the posts  ). But those other cost factors should be thrown in. However that being said quite a few "systems" for lights cost way more than a lumenarc pendent DIY jobber, so I think going that route would be more than fair.
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Mike |
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#504
12/10/2007, 06:08 AM
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True, true... part of the cost from either system isnt in the 'up front' part, but rather the long term bulb replacement/electrical cost which should be taken into consideration. So Im comparing a $300-ish halide system with a $1000 LED system, or close to, not a $1000 LED to a $1000 halide system... that wouldnt really be fair. I realized that as I typed it... but didnt want to get into it.
So the halide system in this case is... 1. Lumenarc 3 mini DE pendant $125 + $5 PFO cord adapter 2. PFO M80/HQI ballast: $180 (bought mine for $135 a coupole years ago, you could make your own M80 ballast for $90 as well) 3. pheonix 14,000K 250wattDE ($60 from www.illuming.com) TOTAL: $370 -Electrical costs @ .10/kwh, 8 hours per day, 365 days per year, 320 watts at the outlet: $90.52 per year -Bulb replacement cost @ $60 per bulb (a bit low end, but it is the pheonix), yearly replacement: $60 per year -Costs associated with A/C, not included, this is too open ended. In my case for instance, the halides mean I spend very little on heating in winter, instead paying more in summer for cooling, although with my direct ducting system makes this minimal as well. Every person's setup as far as ducting, ventilation, etc... is going to change this amount more than anything. Now, the LED fixture, Id say has a life of 5 years. Its not so much that it wont last longer, but that after that amount of time, I can imagine there wont be a system that makes 2x as much light for less money and half the wattage... simply put, with the way LED's are developing, it would be foolish to consider this system's life to be much more. As to if these LED's could simply be swapped out... possible, but not likely. You may not even want to in the end. So Im going to say, a cost comparison should be over 5 years. Thats a fair length of time to compare the halide system as well. The AI88, 12" unit is $850 right now. It runs UP TO 88-93 watts (well just say 90). So at $.10/kwh, same use as halide: $26.28 per year in electricity. There are no other costs really. So... lets see... LED: $850 + $131.40 in electricity: $981.40 Halide: $370 + $240 in bulbs + $452.60 in electric: $1062.60 With the added factor of the halide making less heat (a bonus for someone living in Ca, but perhaps negligable for someone in Alaska...lol), the LED unit is less expensive in the long run, and thats also running the halide with just a $60 bulb. Running it with, say, a $90-110 Giesemann or other bulb would jack that cost up even more. Assuming the LED unit can compete in performance at about the same level... its going to be the winner. The key word here is 'about' the same level. Thats what the test will have to determine, and the results of how close the LED's perform may be subjective, or there may be little room for questioning... only time will tell. There is also the question/consideration of the 'actual longevity' of these newer high-output LED's. Will they last as long as they say? How expensive will they be to replace? Well, if they last 50,000 hours, thats a very long time. At 10 yours per day, it would take over 13 years to hit that amount. 5 years at 10 hours per day is a little over 18,000 hours. And chances are, that if in 3 years, you had a few go out on you, the replacement cost would be minimal for another LED... the trick is... who/how will you put it in? The warranty is only 2 years, so 3 years means out of warranty. Will this be a factor? Who knows, and not to knock AI, but its a good idea to plan on needing repairs at some point with any bit of technology this new. So in the end... the two systems are pretty close in price. All that is left to compare is performance.
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"If at first, the idea is not absurd, then there is no hope for it" -Al Einstein |
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#506
12/10/2007, 10:17 AM
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Agreed Hahn, however with an overdriven phoenix, I doubt the LED lights will come close.
Also the wildcard of the equation is with halides you can change your bulb should your mood change, almost can't put a price on that 
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Mike |
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#507
12/10/2007, 10:24 AM
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Last edited by GSMguy; 12/10/2007 at 10:40 AM. |
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#508
12/10/2007, 12:17 PM
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Perhaps that's what the "spec" is, but in all honest they should dispense calling ANY bulbs that run on a M80 ballast as "250w" when they easily use 30% more power. In my book that's overdriven. But i know semantics.
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Mike |
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#511
12/10/2007, 02:48 PM
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#512
12/10/2007, 03:57 PM
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#513
12/10/2007, 04:13 PM
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The least of my concern is to match the wattage. (Think I just lost it there... dont you?) But really, the AI unit is already down to 88-93 watts, so its hardly worth trying to match up. I could do the test with an icecap, which uses 275 watts, but the thing is... which one? There is a new icecap 250 now, so that confuses things. I figure, Ill stick to the spec M80 ballast... its not changing anytime soon. If you want to convert my findings, all you would have to do is look at Sanjay's archive and realize that its a straight ratio conversion for any bulb you want. Technically, we already have the data made available to us. If you take the results of the Lumenarc mini, dividing the numbers on the grid by the output of the 'Vion' bulb he used (thats the tricky part), and multiply by the output of the new bulb, then you can get results for any bulb out there. For instance, if you want to know what the output on the grid would be for icecap rather than M80, all you have to do is divide all the results by 88, and multiply by 73. You can redo the electrical cost just by dividing by 320, and multiplying by 275. Thats all! If you want to compare to a ushio 10,000K, you can divide all the grid results by 88 (Pheonix/M80), and multiply by 84 (Ushio/M80).
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"If at first, the idea is not absurd, then there is no hope for it" -Al Einstein |
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#514
12/10/2007, 04:16 PM
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"If at first, the idea is not absurd, then there is no hope for it" -Al Einstein |
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#515
12/11/2007, 01:04 AM
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Well, I know you're far away, but if anyone local to Orlando (or if you're due for a vacation) has the equipment, I have lots of setups with all types of lighting, including the PFO professional series with ICE Cap ballasts firing Ushio 14K and XM 20 K, Tek Light T-5's with Geismann bulbs, Sunlight Supplies retro T-5 system also with Geismann bulbs, Solaris G series LED's and the new Solaris I series LED. I just don't have the equipment to do the testing.
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"In among the branches of the corals, like birds among trees, floated many beautiful fish, radiant with metallic greens or crimsons...." J. Beete Jukes 1842-46 |
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#516
12/11/2007, 03:17 AM
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Well, I have the following...
One or two BRAND NEW / less than 12 hours of use of every T5 bulb by the following mfg's... Giesemann ATI AquaScience KZ UVL GE I have Icecap 250, and PFO M80/HQI I have new of the following, or about 100 hours of use: Ushio 10,000K, 14,000K, pheonix, XM 20,000K, EVC 20,000K, Aqualine 10,000K, hamilton 14,000K, Giesemann 14,500K. PGS Lumenarc DE 'Stealth' pendant PFO mini pendant(s) -access to SLS RO3 as well as hamilton reefsun T5 reflectors by the following: Icecap SLR 4' Tek & Tek2 4' Arcadia 4' Aquatinics 4' *** I am looking for samples of Fauna Marin ultra-solaris reflector, Sfiligoi, ATI sunpower, etc to compare all the T5 reflectors on the market*** Top of the line electronic T5 ballasts by Icecap (660), Sylvania (QTP2x54T5HO UNV/PSN), Vossloh-Schwabe, Advanced, and Universal. Apogee Quantum meter. Ocean Optics 'Red Tide' spectrometer w/ software, but need calibration bulb to post anything other than 'relative' readings. Im hoping after christmas this will be my gift to myself. Gosh, Im such a geek. As of tomorrow, it looks like Ill have my hands on the AI 88 unit. I have been keeping my old T5 and halide bulbs... trying to do a long term test. I wanted to test 12 months of use with pheonix bulbs on M80 vs. Icecap. Of course, now that there is a new Icecap...lol, so much for that! Still, it might be interesting. But once the spectrometer is up to top-spec, I wanted to do monthly readings on halides, but I think I might be going 100% T5 on my main tank, so this test would be for T5s then most likely... which is good because it seems like there is more interest with this recently.
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"If at first, the idea is not absurd, then there is no hope for it" -Al Einstein |
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#518
12/12/2007, 04:27 PM
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Well, yesterday, there was a huge storm, so no Fed-Ex. Today, it came. I was home (many people are calling in today as well if they can), so I plugged it in right away... its running full power, so all looks well.
Like I said, I am rather busy this week... wont get to it until this weekend at the earliest, most likely have to wait for the 19th-21st when my vacation starts. If there are any photos you would like in the meantime until I set up the grid, let me know. Regards, Jon
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"If at first, the idea is not absurd, then there is no hope for it" -Al Einstein |
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#521
12/21/2007, 11:46 AM
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#522
12/27/2007, 12:51 PM
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update?
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#523
12/27/2007, 02:18 PM
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Woooooooooh!
Been doing grid testing whenever I get a chance... the holidays made it a little complicated. The 6" and 12" grids are done (no need for 9" it seems), and Im half way through collecting all the points for the 12". I should have that and the 18" done today, and then the 24" and 30" tomorrow. Then I just put it all into spreadsheets.
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"If at first, the idea is not absurd, then there is no hope for it" -Al Einstein |
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