Nitrate Reduction 101 with sugar!!!

[jennmac415]

LOL!!! I too think thats about it in a nutshell....

on a side note... I have been dosing sugar for a little over 2 weeks...my nitrates are down from "off the chart" (long story... all in my longggg reply several pages ago) to around 20....I am still dosing to get them down to zero...then will lower the dose to "maintain" my nitrates ALONG with more prudent husbandry. Everything looks MUCH happie and I have not lost anything.

[kzooreefer]

Just to even out the debate I've done more reading about the negative side of sugar and here is an excerpt from an article "The Rising tide of Ocean Plagues".

http://www.evworld.com/view.cfm?page=news&newsid=11138

Sugar Kills – New Clues in the Mystery of Coral Diseases

In the struggle to understand and prevent coral diseases, scientists are finding that sugars released in sewage and agricultural run-off play an unexpected role in killing Corals.

In the 1970's there were only a few diseases documented on coral reefs. Today there are over thirty, and the numbers are increasing exponentially. "The scary thing is that even in the Great Barrier Reef, one of the most protected reefs in the world, researchers are seeing more diseases every time they look," says David Kline of the Smithsonian Tropical Research Institute.

Nailing down the causes of these diseases has been difficult. Kline and his colleagues, Forest Rohwer and Nancy Knowlton, examine a variety of stressors to understand the origin and spread of coral disease.

"It's unexpected. The water quality components governments typically monitor – nitrogen and phosphorus – aren't killing the coral directly," says Kline. "It's sugars making bacteria on Corals grow out of control."

Bacterial communities live in healthy Corals and are beneficial when kept in check: they may actually protect Corals from disease and likely collect and concentrate needed nutrients from the water. But, like an infected cut, rapid growth of bacteria is problematic. It can cause disease or make Corals more susceptible to new pathogens.

Sugars that promote this dangerous overgrowth reach the ocean directly from human waste and agricultural run-off, but are also produced by fleshy Algae. This link to Algae reveals an escalating feedback loop. Nitrogen and phosphorus pollution in run-off enhances the growth of Algae that produce simple sugars as they photosynthesize. The sugars, in turn, promote the growth of bacteria, which kills or weakens the coral. This leaves more room for the Algae to take over, smothering Corals and increasing sugar production, starting the cycle over again and rapidly changing reefs to fields of Algae.

In healthy systems, some of this algal growth would be kept in check by fish and other algae-eaters, but overfishing has wiped out many of these populations. "Corals are tough, they've been around for millions of years. But multiple threats such as pollution, overfishing, and global warming may prove to be too much for them," Kline says. "I've seen Staghorn reefs go from brilliant areas that form a nursery for fish, to completely wiped out, in a matter of months."

The good news is that sugar levels can be monitored and significantly reduced. According to recent reports, eighty percent of sewage in the Caribbean is released directly to the water untreated. "I think we can save reefs in the Caribbean and the Pacific," says Kline. "But we need proper water treatment systems throughout the world and large enough networks of marine reserves."

[hansonfam]

jennmac415 i sent you a pm.

Lisa

[thriceanangel]

But we are eliminating algae blooms caused ny NO3 and PO4 through the use of sugar. More complex sugar at that. This sounds like there is an increase of NO3 and PO4 from sewage and runoff. That is causing an algae bloom which creates, through photosynthesis, sugars that are creating more bacteria that are killing coral... The process isn't the same, the sugars are different, and I have no dounbt that sewage runoff is detrimental to coral reefs in more than one way.

This article sounds like the elevated NO3 and PO4 from runoff is causing the symbiotic algae on corals to grow more rapid (browning typical of high NO3/PO4 systems) and that this increased amount of algae produces more sugars that are increasing the amount of bacteria that, at an increased level, are harmful to corals in that they create disease. -So it sounds to me that the problem is once again eliminated by dosing a carbon source, eliminating the NO3/PO4 so that they symbiotic algae don't grow out of control, and create a detrimental sugar on/in the flesh of the coral.

[boxfishpooalot]

This article sounds like the elevated NO3 and PO4 from runoff is causing the symbiotic algae on corals to grow more rapid

I was thinking this exact thing. I seen that article before too. Its too vague to make any conclusions about it. Who knows what else comes out of sewage pipes, copper?Interesting article none the less.

[Zoom]

I was thinking about to start with the sugar dosing soon I'm trying to eliminate any Dino from taking over my tank again.
I did the 4 day black out and I'm doing very good so far I saw some small area that it had some dinos and siphoned them out .
I may just try to see what will the sugar dosing will do to the dinos.
my P04 is low 0.01.
So is the N03 0.9 but I don't think the test kit is that good .
I use colorimeter for my P04 so I know that is good.
Any one try to use sugar dosing to eliminate Dinos?

[boxfishpooalot]

I think the treatment for dinoflagellates is high ph. RHF made an article about it. What is your ph? Fwiw sugar caused cyano to grow in my tank a lot faster. But I dont care when I already have algae.

[Zoom]

Originally posted by boxfishpooalot
I think the treatment for dinoflagellates is high ph. RHF made an article about it. What is your ph? Fwiw sugar caused cyano to grow in my tank a lot faster. But I dont care when I already have algae.

I been battling Dinos for a year now i read all the articles that is out there .
The only think will eliminate them is total darkness. I try four days of total darkness so far and did kill about 99% of them and about seven SPS heads.
High PH will kill them also it is not as easy as you think ph of 8.5+ will need constant Kalk addition for at list ten days , all the high Kalk addition binds all the pumps i try, belive me i try.

[jdircksen]

well i am 48 hours into dosing sugar and seeing no results. 1st day i added 1/2 tsp. next day i dosed 1/2 tsp. my system is 100g total. nitrates were 10-20 to start out, they are now closer to 20. skimmer is a ER RS100.

should i use more sugar?

[ssbreef]

yup one full tsp.

[ROR]

48 hours is too soon to be looking for results. Stick with 1/2 tsp for a week, then if everything looks OK go to a rounded 1/2 tsp for a week, then 1 tsp, etc. No rush, take your time, eventually you'll see results.

Your tank will probably go through a diatom bloom, and you may see algae increase for a bit, but eventually you'll get too the right amount of sugar and everything will clear up nice, without the cloudy water bacteria bloom.

[boxfishpooalot]

Ive been thinking why algae grows when we are actually reducing nutrients. I think its because the bacteria are producing more Co2 for algae to grow. Its like fertilizer that goes away.I even notice my ph drops when I added sugar(Co2 effect).

[bureau13]

I started about a week ago with 1 tsp (240 gal) and have ramped up to approximately 1 TBSP every morning. I see no algae bloom, in fact my tank appears to be clearer than before. So far no measurable reduction in Nitrates or Phosphates (roughly at 5, and undetectable) although I still have to clean the glass about every 2-3 days if I don't want to see snail trails in the algae film. I have noticed my pH is a bit low however...for some reason I wasn't thinking about it being related to the sugar but I guess it makes sense that it would be. What are you all doing to offset the pH drop, anything in particular?

jds

[boxfishpooalot]

What are you all doing to offset the pH drop, anything in particular?

im just not dosing too much. More than 2tsp in 140gal total volume causes a ph drop of .10 in my tank with 2 skimmers.

for some reason I wasn't thinking about it being related to the sugar

Yea its the sugar and possibly added Co2 from breathing in your house with closed up windows. I dont mind algae, but I do notice that hair algae practically dies with dosing. It turns white.

[bureau13]

Hmmmm...I have two clumps of hair algae, and it hasn't changed (I think it might be something different than the norm though, possibly derbasia). I added some buffer over the last few days, and my alkalinity is actually rather high...around 10 dKH...but the pH is still lower than I like. I think I'll cut back on the sugar a bit, and try opening some windows when no one is looking

jds

[boxfishpooalot]

Good idea Bureau13! Fwiw im also thinking as to why I have seen hair algae subside and cyano bacteria grow more.

Well cyano is a bacteria sorta right? If thats the case then the bacteria that we are feeding, the ones that fog the tank, will not "harm" (more on this later)the cyano.. But the hair algae are different. They contain inside themselves sugars, just like we are dosing.

So when we stop dosing, or the sugar we dosed runs out and fog bacteria use it up, the bacterial fog we are feeding suddenly realizes foods(carbon, sugar) is running out. So they attack the hair algae under desperation.Killing it.

Ever noticed hair algae turn white when sugar dosing? I think thats a sighn that glucose is being sucked out from starving sugar fed bacteria.

But the cyano is different. It grows. In my tank with high Po4, really high not sps freindly, the cyano is not limited by Po4. But limited by nitrate now that bacteria are pulling it out.

So why dont the cyano die? Well probably because they are using the sugar too. Because when I stop the sugar the cyano dissapear. Eventually when nutreints are so low not even cyano will grow anymore.

[TheORKINMan]

Just for the record DONT go too much too fast. I spilled what mustve been 2 tablespoons on accident into my tank yesterday, today there is a mega bacterial bloom that wiped out all of my crustaceans and my pajama cardinal. Nothing major, corals, snails, starfish, and other fish seem largely unaffected, but I moved them out anyway until it dies down. So yeah, use me as a precautionary example and don't screw around trying to do this and watch a basketball game on TV at the same time :P

[boxfishpooalot]

TheORKINMan, Is that on a 30 gallon? Does it have a skimmer and can you check your nitrates after things settle down?

Thanks!

[yeniraki]

we now know that dosing sugar decrease nitrate. We also know that the decrease in nitrate level is achieved by the anaerob bacteria that consume and oxidize it to No2. However as it is in humans anaerobic glucolysis, causes Ph to drop (e.g. lactic acidosis). We all noticed, the Ph drop and the increase of algee population, although nutrients were depleting. I think one of the reasons for the algee bloom we experienced was because of the ph drop as they like lower Ph. So I suggest to combine a buffer like kalkwasser with sugar?
I dont use sugar anymore as my nitrate is 0 after 4 weeks of dosing sugar.

[jdircksen]

Did any of you experience clear air bubbles while dosing sugar? My red slime algae seems to be giving off air bubbles, and I'm wondering if it is related to the sugar?

Pics for reference:

[bureau13]

Hmmm...I have always seen these clear bubbles, but I have been seeing them a bit more frequently than before. I had attributed it to my Vortech being out of the tank so there's less flow to knock them off...but maybe it is the sugar after all.

jds

[boxfishpooalot]

The cyano is just getting a nice Co2 boost. This lets it photosythesize better. Increasing the oxygen it releases. Your cyano is growing.

I would not add buffer with sugar yeniraki because a buffer does not effect the ph. It raises alkalinilty. Co2 effects ph not so much alkalinity.

[jdircksen]

i've been battling the red slime for a few months, but I never saw bubbles until after I dosed a little sugar.
I also have yet to see a reduction in nitrates.

[jeffhaag]

I have been dosing sugar into my 200 gal tank for almost 6 weeks now and have decided it doesn't help. My original NO3 was at 80ppm in a mostly softy tank with a few LPS. I began dosing 1 tsp every other day and ramped up to 2 tsp daily. NO3 did drop down initially to 20ppm for a short while, but has since risen back to the 80 ppm level it was at before. My new game plan is to change 10% water every other day until I get it back down to a reasonable level. I have tested incoming water and it is fine. I have attributed most of the high nitrate problem to poor husbandry last summer and overfeeding. I have since completely reworked the sump and protein skimmer so I think I'm pretty good going forward, I just didn't want to do major water changes to get the current levels back to acceptable. Obviously, like always, there are no shortcuts!

[jdircksen]

I wouldn't waste your time with 10% water changes. I'd do 30% or more if I were you.
Check out this calculator to see how long it will take and how much water it will take to lower your nitrates by changing 10%
http://reefcentral.com/calc/RODICalc.php