Treating ich in the reef aquarium?

[useskaforevil]

"none of the 7 isolates they used survived more than 34 cycles, around 10 to 11 months."

"The presence of aging cell lines in C. irritans suggests that an aquarium that has been running for longer than 12 months without any additions is unlikely to have any surviving "Ich" parasites."

did either of those people add or change anything at all within a year of their ich outbreaks? or did they have incredible huge tanks where they possibly couldve just had so many different types of ich that it lasted longer?

[Philwd]

I used those exact references in a discussion with Steve Pro many months ago. He pointed to work showing ich lines were still viable and going strong over 2 years with no reason to believe they were weakening. I don't know if I saved the link. I'll look later tonight.

[Doahh]

I use organic rid ich... got rid of my ich in about 5 days... it stinksthough

[merseyman]

____________________________________________________
You are misinterpreting what they say there. Fish do NOT develop PERMANENT immunity. They MAY develop PARTIAL TEMPORARY immunity. The ich will not go away. It will still be in the tank waiting for a stress trigger.
____________________________________________________

... sorry, but YOU are actually the one misinterpreting their words. They unequivocably state their belief that it is possible for all the ich in a tank to die out over a period longer than a year due to, basically, inbreeding. This requires absolutely no additions. Now this would be incredibly rare in a hobbyist's tank (no additions), so probably rarely occurs in practice. They also furthered their belief that stressed or not, most fish will develope ich in an ich infested aquarium. It would seem improbable that an infected fish would hide every sign of infection behind the gill flaps over that extended time. They mentioned NOTHING about partial immunity.

Not saying they are right or wrong, but useskaforevil interpreted their words correctly.

[kfowler]

Whether or not Ich is still viable over an extented period seems irrelivant to me. I believe the vast majority of hobbiest make at least one addition to their tank in a one year period. I know I do.

"Voodoo" cures aside, I still believe proper QT'ing coupled with hypo treatment greatly reduces your risk of ever encountering ich.

[Philwd]

I know what those authors are not saying. They did not come out and say fish will become immune and/or ich will completely die out. All you have to do is wait it out.

Partial immunity is from all the other reading I have done. So I was reading between the lines here. Here is one quote from

Steve Pro article

"Fish can develop immunity to Cryptocaryon irritans that can last for up to six months (Colorni, 1987 and Colorni & Burgess, 1997). ...This limited immunity is also the basis for some aquarists advocating that if a fish gets sick, to just maintain pristine water quality, feed a superb diet, and to allow the fish's own immune system to do the job. While it is possible that this could work, natural immunity is not totally foolproof. In the studies cited above, some of the fish were not completely protected by their own natural immunity. It is possible that immunity could protect the fish from massive infestation, but still allow small numbers of parasites to remain and reproduce undetected by the aquarist. This is where the 'Ich is always present' argument comes into play and why sometimes an aquarist has recurring difficulties with this pathogen."

I could cite others but the key is they all go back to Colorni as the source.

Here's the thread where the ich line dying out is discussed.



But Steven later posts about this paper disputing the original researchers claim. Here the strain lived for over 2 years.

Yoshinaga, T. & H.W. Dickerson. 1994. "Laboratory Propagation of Cryptocaryon irritans on a Saltwater-Adapted Poecilia Hybrid, the Black Molly" Journal of Aquatic Animal Health 6:197-201, 1994.

[Paul B]

did either of those people add or change anything at all within a year of their ich outbreaks? or did they have incredible huge tanks where they possibly couldve just had so many different types of ich that it lasted longer?

I think I am one of those people mentioned. If so, Let me state that there has been ich in my 100 gallon tank for over 30 years.
The last time I had a major problem with it was a few months ago.
I had a major problem (actually a series of problems) which severly stressed my fish causing me to lose many of them along with a lot of corals. Most of the fish exhibited ich after the stressful situation. My fish usually get ich if death in iminant as from old age or a severe injury. I am doing an experiment now with my tank and it is mostly gobies but I do have a hippo tang. He had ich when I got him a few months ago and he still gets it now. Sometimes he is so full of paracites that I am sure to find him dead in the morning, then the next day he is completely clear. No I don't have cleaner fish or shrimp as these will do absolutely nothing for ich but I know many people thing they do. I also did not medicate my reef or use hypo.
I know the hippo is not cured and I know the paracites are just multiplying on him then hatching and looking for a new host. But for some reason, none of the other fish get infected. There is a 12 year old fire clown which never had ich and about 8 gobies.
The hippo is the only one with ich and so far it does not seem to affect him much. My tank ran for all of it's life like this.
There is a phrase that used to be used a lot in this hobby in the seventees which I never hear any more, it is "breeding condition"
IMO, fish in breeding condition "almost" never get ich. Fish in aquariums are almost never in this condition, they are in fact usually in a semi comotose, overweight, underexercised just plain lousy condition. I know many people have very healthy fish so don't jump all over me yet. Bear with me for a moment.
If you do any SCUBA diving in the tropics you will notice that wild fish are noticably more colorful and livlier than aquarium fish. This of course is partly due to food but it is also due to exercise, sunlight, trace elements, availability of mates, etc. We can't duplicate much of these requirments but we can come close. If your fish are not exhibiting mating behavior like chasing away males, nest building etc, then they are not as healthy as you think. All fish species will not do this but clowns, gobies, bleenies, and the majority of bottom fish will. They will also be much more colorful than the way they look in a store.
The gobies that I am trying to breed are mostly brown or gray when I get them. Now they are still brown but they are a much more vibrant brown and their fins are bright yellow with blue
spots. These colors were not visable in the store.
They are constantly chasing each other, building and cleaning nests.
These fish have never shown ich, nor has the old clown which although is the only clown I have still maintains a nest and constantly chases away other fish that come close. These fish are in breeding condition and do not get infected.
So called "ich magnet" hippo tangs are schooling fish and as such are always stressed. They will be stressed no matter what you do because a hippo tang on a reef by itself will stand out like a beacon to predators because it does not know how to act on it's own (my opinion from my own observation of course)
It will become food very fast.
Anyway to get back to ich, I am not saying that fish in breeding condition will guarantee them to be free from ich, I am saying that in "MY TANK" at least they seem to be free of ich.
To keep fish in breeding condition is for another post. My fingers hurt.
(disclaimer)
quarantine your fish, don't put fish in your tank with ich. Don't do most of the things that I do, I am an experimenter and not the God of fish.
Good luck and have a great day.
Paul

[merseyman]

while much of what you say may be true, it's all conjecture. Some species are more prone to ich, some seem almost immune. This is probably the main reason that you see it on your tang and not on your gobies.

[merseyman]

since i only have 2 fish right now, i'm going to try and catch them and quarantine them. Get the tank back to zero ich. Unfortunately, this will have to wait, as I will be in France/Spain for 2 weeks soon, and I don't feel comfortable having my friends deal w/ the quaratine tank. Hopefully the fish will be OK til I get back.

[Paul B]

while much of what you say may be true, it's all conjecture. Some species are more prone to ich, some seem almost immune. This is probably the main reason that you see it on your tang and not on your gobies.

Merseyman, I think I mentioned that in there somewhere but I know clownfish are not immune to ich neither are purple psudos or royal gramma's. I also have those. Since the seventees there have been many, many fish in there and in the last 25 years there have been no cases of ich until as I said a few weeks ago. I personally do not quarantine (but you should) and I add NSW, local seaweed, fish and inverts on a regular basis.
There are fish that are fairly immune to ich and others like tangs as I said that get it more often.
It is of course conjecture on my part but it is conjecture that I have been forming for almost 50 years. OK only 36 or so with salt. Besides my reef I have been dealing with ich in wholesalers and dealers tanks. I have a little experience with ich but I will admit that I still do not know why most of my fish still do not get it. There is obviousely something that we are missing.
Most authors believe that if ich is present in your tank, your fish will get it. I believe that is not necessarilly true but it usually is.
I also know from experience that fish in breeding condition rarely get any type of malady, ich included.
Before my tank was a reef it was constantly infected and I had to use copper continousely. As a matter of fact, if it were not for copper, there would not be a salt water hobby.
I had salt water fish before liquid copper and it was no fun. Almost everything died in a few days from ich. We cured it with copper pennies but obviousely the dosage was very hard to control.
Paul

[kfowler]

Paul so basically what you're saying is that if we play Barry White to our fish, they won't get ich.

[Paul B]

Thats it. I am glad someone got it

[ronald7410]

Ok. I'm medicating my whole tank right now. During medication, are you supposed to leave your skimmer on or turn it off? I forgot the procedure.

[Philwd]

Ronald - DO NOT MEDICATE YOUR DISPLAY!!!!

Use a hospital tank. If you use copper based meds in your display you will render it unusable for invertebrates.

[ronald7410]

Well I got it from the lfs. I don't think its copper. And its not the inverts that I'm treating. Its mainly my blue tang that I wanna take care of. I have no corals yet either.

[Paul B]

Ronald, do you know what the medication is called? or what's in it?

[marineduud]

Originally posted by ronald7410
Well I got it from the lfs. I don't think its copper. And its not the inverts that I'm treating. Its mainly my blue tang that I wanna take care of. I have no corals yet either.

If it is COPPER you will not be able to keep corals in that tank and all of you L/R and sand will be dead !

[merseyman]

"And its not the inverts that I'm treating"

... perhaps because inverts don't get ich? Statements like this make me wonder how much you've educated yourself before starting a tank. For instance, even if you don't have coral, copper will kill ANY invert, and make it harder to introduce any later on (might as well start over).

[ronald7410]

Originally posted by merseyman
"And its not the inverts that I'm treating"

... perhaps because inverts don't get ich? Statements like this make me wonder how much you've educated yourself before starting a tank. For instance, even if you don't have coral, copper will kill ANY invert, and make it harder to introduce any later on (might as well start over).

Alright homie. This forum is to help people out. If your not going to help then [profanity]!!!!!

So anyways, the bottle says Nox-ich. The active ingredients are sodium chloride 0.50% and malachite green 0.50%

Keep feeding input guys, my fish is getting worse. Thanx in advance.

[ronald7410]

Originally posted by merseyman
"And its not the inverts that I'm treating"

... perhaps because inverts don't get ich? Statements like this make me wonder how much you've educated yourself before starting a tank. For instance, even if you don't have coral, copper will kill ANY invert, and make it harder to introduce any later on (might as well start over).

Alright homie. This forum is to help people out. If your not going to help then [profanity]!!!!!

So anyways, the bottle says Nox-ich. The active ingredients are sodium chloride 0.50% and malachite green 0.50%

Keep feeding input guys, my fish is getting worse. Thanx in advance.

[Pmolan]

Tho these arguements are viable, I still maintain tha at least in my tank the natural ich eaters worked for me the best. An occasional uv blast keeps everything in balance.

[kfowler]

I'm not familiar with Nox-Ich other than the name. I know that malachite green is commonly used to treat marine diseases. I really don't know what effect it will have on inverts or corals.

Another alternative is Seachem Proguard. This is what I use for dips and treatment during QT. It's not copper based and supposedly can be used in a reef system all though I've never tried it.

[Paul B]

Although malachite green has been marketed for paracites since the sixtees it is not a real good medication for ich. The other ingredient "sodium Cloride" is salt.

This medication IMO will not help. Also for any medication you should turn off the skimmer.
There are only two ich treatments generally used in salt water. Both were mentioned. Copper or Hypo.
There are a few medications like what you are using along with "Kick Ich" and a couple of others that may have a slight effect on the paracite but I doubt it will cure it.
Cleaner fish and shrimp will do nothing.

Vitaly. Very good reply for someone with such a short time in the hobby.

Have a great day.
Paul B

[adambaron]

Will running A UV kill it off?

[kfowler]

Originally posted by adambaron
Will running A UV kill it off?

No. Think about it this way. You'd have to have every Ich parasite pass through the UV in order kill it all. Ich is in a only in a free swiming state for a short period of time. While UV may reduce some of the free floating parasites, it certainly will not cure it.