Why are LFS prices so high?

[sequential]

Well put, boodwah.

[Silencer]

As much as I think certain LFS should be supported I also believe that it is their job to make it both affordable and worthwhile for us to support them. I realise that it is difficult for a LFS to make money and pay the bills but honestly, it is difficult for me to make money and pay my bills too. They cannot expect us to pay extra money to them simply because business is tough.

If you are buying a peice of equipment such as a pump, ballast, light bulb, skimmer or any other similar item the simple fact is that you will get the same item whether you buy it at the LFS or from an online store. As a consumer it only makes sense to buy it at the cheapest reputable store. This is almost always one of the larger online shops. This may be unfortunate for the LFS but that's simply how it is. I will not pay significantly higher prices out of pity. This doesn't mean, however, that I don't support my LFS.

Unlike equipment which is always the same, livestock is always different. I want to see the livestock I'm buying. I want to know that it's healthy, colorful and active. Even though the LFS is more expensive than an online shop I am willing to pay the extra price because in this case I really am getting something more from my money, the ability to see exactly what I'm buying. This is, in my opinion, what an LFS should focus on. They can sell some common items and equipment, things you need in emergencies, such as salt, water, food, medicine, small powerheads, airstones and similar items, but livestock should be the main business.

This actually ends up being quite interesting. In my area at least, the few LFS in my area that focus primarily on livestock and sell only basic equipment are generally good stores with fair prices and nice owners. Meanwhile those stores that stock a significant amount of equipment usually have much higher prices and use more forceful "used car salesman" tactics that are rather unfriendly. As a result, and this is something I only noticed when writing this, all of the LFS that I regularly visit are primarily livestock stores that sell little if any equipment. I am curious if other people have a similar experience with LFS quality.

[dr.darkness]

I don't agree with coralights, in my area there is a lfs that hosts a club that has DYI progects and the owner of the store gets in and helps,if it was going to hurt his bussiness he wouldn't be doing it.A few other lfs have DYI sumps and a few other things;so why can't we with out catching crap for it?Btw a lfs sells live rock for 10 bucks a#,if thats a fare price to you then you go and buy it I'm not.

[smcnally]

I also wanted to add something else to this. We have a local store out here that recently started selling their own brand of equimpment. Basically certain manufacturers brand their equimpent with his name. He sells needle wheel skimmers, calcium reactors, MH Bulbs, etc. Because he gets these items OEM'd for him he can afford to sell them at competative prices, and they are very nicely made. Now that is good business pracrtice. Jacking prices because you can't pay your bills is not.

[markandkristen]

i do about 50/50
i just bought two mhs. shipped (bulbs) for 63. at my lfs they are around 180 for two. not the same brand of course. however i buy my frozen and most of my fish from my lfs. as well as my chemicals.
i think they realize that. i think they try and catch somebody on a spending spree or pure ignorance.

i would admit ... if they can charge like 50% above what they get it for then they can still come out ahead because they will sell more.

i have one local fish store that sells the 50 gallon instant ocean bags for 12.95 not a bad price for the most part. the one down the streets sells it for 16.99 so she has attracted me.
the 12.95 store also had a blonde naso that was around 5 inches for 50 . which to me isnt a bad price

[phlipper84]

Here is the deal, the LFS you are going to is hosing you. If the item cost 35.00 each at the LFS plus tax, I would probably buy it locally. However as some of you have said, on larger items with larger price differences it does pay to shop on-line. I do both. I am not a "homer" for the LFS by any means. I just feel by the time I add in shipping costs on a lot of items it just is not worth it not to pay a couple of bucks more. I do know that I bought VHO bulbs recently and the prices at my LFS were virtually identical to Marine Depot without their box charges or trying to find people to go in with me to get the shipping costs thrown in. I have seen some of the wholesalers price lists and I have asked him why he just doesn't buy his pumps from Marine Depot. However, lately I have noticed that Marine Depot, the on-line place I usually buy from, used to give advice for free. I mean extensive advice from hobbyists who seemed to be of the same ilk as the people here on Reef Central. However, now when I call for any help, all I get is the number for the manufacturer. I have had to make 4 plus phone calls to IceCap on a ballast that has gone bad. Every time it is "check your continuity of your wiring and call us back" I felt they could really care less if I sent my unit back or not. Heck, they charge 65.00 just to fix it. If I sent it all they were going to do was plug it in and see if it worked for 65.00. Anyhow I finally checked my continuity and it was the ballast, after finding someone with a continuity tester. By that time I had finally bought another VHO ballast locally and am sitting on the dead one waiting to get an extra 65 dollars more to send it in. Meanwhile, the LFS loaned my a 96 Watt compact fluroescent to tide me over. Again, sometimes it just makes financial sense to buy on-line, but remember, the LFS comes in handy and you will not even know you miss it until it is gone.

[markandkristen]

i may also add the 12.95 store .. wont sell a fish that they know is sick .. not even at a reduced price.

that i appreciate

[dhnguyen]

Originally posted by coralights
...The problem with the aquarium hobby is cheapskate do-it-yourselfers ... who also give out lots of bad advice on how to save money. They deal with mail order companies because their so-called expertise cannot not be disputed.....

I guess I fit in this category as I like to DIY on anything I can to save a buck. See it's not like I'm cheap on purpose but I have these things called... Um... Kids... Yeah. And can't justify blowing money away on stuff when I KNOW I can make it myself just as good or better and a helluva lot cheaper.

But if you have deeper pockets, by all means pour the cash down whatever drains you feel like


D.

[colettem]

When I set-up my new reef tank I bought it from an internet company who installed it for me. The company had a good reputation which I checked out before buying. Unfortunately for me the company is now ceasing to trade, not answering their E-mails, have shut down their website etc etc. At least with a lfs if you are unhappy it is a lot easier to take items back and get a refund. Although I haven't had any problems yet with anything, I could well run into trouble if any of my equipment fails.

[coralights]

I'm not about to critisize someone for saving money for their families sake to be in the hobby .... LFS have families also ... and to the extent that a lot of DIY's spin the retailers wheels without compensating them for their time .. that is not right ... perhaps wannabee DIY's is a more accurate phrase ... since the die hard DIY'ers are really few ....and really do know what their doing and don't need to solicit free guidance under false pretences

[dhnguyen]

Funny thing is... My LFS have solicited me for some of their ideas
Maybe I should ask them to start compensating me for my time

There are a lot of us DIYers out there than you think. You won't even have to go far to find them. Just go to the DIY forum and see. Many of the DIY projects turn out better than the commercial versions.

But lets face it, there is really no need for LFS to jack up the prices of their dry goods so much. Maybe they (the LFS) wouldn't feel so threatened by the online vendors if they didn't overcharge so outrageously. Just maybe then people would be more inclined to buy from their stores.

All said and done, I still support my LFS and will only buy livestock locally if only because I know they quarantine their stock and I like to see what I'm getting.



D.

[sequential]

and to the extent that a lot of DIY's spin the retailers wheels without compensating them for their time .. that is not right

So, when I walk into the mall and do not buy anything, but allow sales people to help me and answer my questions, am I obliged to compensate them for their time? The answer, of course, is no.

There's no love lost between hobbyists on a budget and LFS that choose to gauge their customers. I go to my LFS once a week and purchase water at jacked up prices because I can not afford an RO/DI and my local super markets sell the appropriate water at $1.59 a gallon, but never have more than a handful in stock. When I'm at the LFS, I tend to buy little things that have come up as being needed during the week. They are the ones that turned me on to RC, they are the ones that told me about some of the better sites to buy from. I find it hard to believe that they are losing anything. Sure, they want me to buy a $300 PC light fixture and the $80 replacement bulbs, but for every one customer like me, they have countless others who don't even know such resources exist online.

Look, if you're a LFS owner and are struggling, as a business person, I feel your pain. Entrepreneurship is truly a difficult endeavor. However, as a customer and a hobbyist, my only obligation is my own best interest.

If you can't compete for food, you'll be eaten by a bigger fish, starve struggling for scraps, or find an alternate means of survival. There are plenty of things LFS can do, some even mentioned in this thread, that could make a LFS more competitive. It just so happens that many LFS don't or can't change due to the nature of their own business experience. For that, and that alone, do any LFS suffer at the hands of more agile competitors and thrifty consumers.

[boodwah]

Originally posted by sequential
So, when I walk into the mall and do not buy anything, but allow sales people to help me and answer my questions, am I obliged to compensate them for their time? The answer, of course, is no.

There's no love lost between hobbyists on a budget and LFS that choose to gauge their customers. I go to my LFS once a week and purchase water at jacked up prices because I can not afford an RO/DI and my local super markets sell the appropriate water at $1.59 a gallon, but never have more than a handful in stock. When I'm at the LFS, I tend to buy little things that have come up as being needed during the week. They are the ones that turned me on to RC, they are the ones that told me about some of the better sites to buy from. I find it hard to believe that they are losing anything. Sure, they want me to buy a $300 PC light fixture and the $80 replacement bulbs, but for every one customer like me, they have countless others who don't even know such resources exist online.

Look, if you're a LFS owner and are struggling, as a business person, I feel your pain. Entrepreneurship is truly a difficult endeavor. However, as a customer and a hobbyist, my only obligation is my own best interest.

If you can't compete for food, you'll be eaten by a bigger fish, starve struggling for scraps, or find an alternate means of survival. There are plenty of things LFS can do, some even mentioned in this thread, that could make a LFS more competitive. It just so happens that many LFS don't or can't change due to the nature of their own business experience. For that, and that alone, do any LFS suffer at the hands of more agile competitors and thrifty consumers.

Basic Economics 101 in a nutshell. Well said.

[BurntOutReefer]

All business's are in it for one thing......profitabilty. end of story.

[phlipper84]

You are right on! Sometimes the people with the on-line price shopping bug can be the biggest headache for a store owner. My LFS gave the backroom of his store to the local club for an auction. Talk about endangering your business. Not only are people buying stuff for considerably less than you sell for, but you are also assuming insurance risks and the assorted headaches that 15 reefers can present. He did this cause he wanted to engender good-will towards this group of hobbyists that were interested in the same thing as him. To make a long story short, after the auction he posted to the club forum that he would no longer hold the auctions at his store. No reason given, just that he felt better not doing it. The next thing you know there is a 75 post thread going on, flaming him for not allowing the auctions to take place at his location. I am biased to his plight, I will say that right from the start. But, you have to be kidding to take it out on him. He is a businessman and has the right to do whatever he wants. When all was said and done, he was able to track purchases of the posters. They had spent about 200 dollars in his store in 8 months. I understand the on-line craze and saving money, but would anyone go in to their LFS and say "Na na na na, na, I just bought this item that you have here on your shelf for a heck of a lot less." It has been my experience that more often than not, me included, have relied on this owners support for setting up my equipment correctly and solving numerous problems. There is hardly a day that goes by when I do not say "thank you" to myself for him being open, whether I buy my dry goods from him or not. Live stock is an entirely different kettle of fish!

[nemo g]

"mail order" companies dont get bigger discounts than lfs just b/c they are mail order.

all but the largest retailers have to go through distributors. and the distributors pricing is all but homogenous. the price only differs with regards to volume pricing.

for exmple, if i buy 10 bulbs from the distributor it will cost 15% more per bulb than if i ordered a 100.

so some mail order places may have better deals than others simply because they move more product, and thus can have lower prices as they are making their dollars on volume.

your lfs makes its money on the major mark up on fish and accessories (food, filter media, etc). so dont worry about them.

for the most part, in most businesses, its the accessories that keep the store in the black.

another example. tv's are barely sold over cost. but the cable in the other isle that cost best buy just $2 is sold for $35. and anyone who has a tv, nonethess a new one, can take a gander behind their set and see how much theyve spent on wire. ive got a pair of cables that cost about 50% of my speakers. byt he way, low end to very very high end, speakers reach a 100% mark up, yup. the store sells the speaker for twice what it cost them to buy. but i digress ...

so, the lfs is making a sweet buck on the fish, a real sweet buck. some jack the prices up very high, while others relatively so. adjusting according to sales. supply and demand my friend.

in the end, they charge those prices because they can. you would be surprised how many people that actually shop at petsmarts or other lfs dont know they are spending at least double on items such as filters, dog leashes, rabbit toys and the like.

be glad you know the difference and spread the word. your lfs will always be in business, as people (the masses) will always be slightly ignorant and majorly impatient.

i did my good deed the other night. was at a big petcompany store and saw a guy pick up a filter $80!. i told him to go online, print the price off petsmarts page and go there where it was barely $40. not only was he shocked that he could do this, but he didnt even have a pc to do it with.

for those capitalist folk, a 15-20% mark up is tolerable. 100% is just robbery. just because you may be able to afford it, doesnt mean the proletariat should shelter the burden.

pass it forward my friends

sorry so long, keep it real

nemo g

[markandkristen]

i think though to run a ebay ad from your home is is alot cheaper then trying to rent, light, pay the employees of a store and etc. plus if they have a stayalive guarantee that they have to eat.

my personal opinon is that the future of this world ( not to get so religious on people ) will be on the internet though.

i talked to a guy who quit a music company and started doing ebay with vendors he was in contact with when working at the music store .... hes making a descent living off of ebay

[markandkristen]

i think it has to do with the walmart theory. alot of little hardware stores hate walmart and homedepot because their shutting them down do to price hacking. same with grocery stores .. at walmart i can get a box of fruitloops for 2.50 at another gocery store its over 4 bucks. {got to have my fruit loops...thier great }

[nemo g]

economics rules.

wallmart doesnt price cut just to do so. they make tons of money on volume. distributers, manufacturers want to get rid of products to make and sell more. so when the big guys move tons of stuff, they get a break.

but if they werent selling tons of stuff, the mark ups would be a lot greater.

it all goes to the nature of the american consumer. more more more new new new. the mass consumer buys a great number of things that they neither need and/or that they will replace within a month for more junk. thants where the marts come in. they satisfy the "sale" give me give me consumer.

i cant tell you how many times my gf or mom want to go to a store just because they are having a "sale". i ask them "do you need anything", "no" they reply. yet they return with more than $100 on stuff that will be given or thrown away in a matter of months.

this is indicative of the wealth of this country, where the lower middle class is wealthy relatively speaking to the rest of the world.

now ebay is a whole other story. ebay is also a nice indicator for the level of knowldge and or intelligence of the masses. not only is junk sold ad nauseum, but people just have no idea on how or what to buy.

example. a guy i know bought a brand new camera. wasnt crazy about it. packed it up, sold it on ebay, AND MADE A $200 PROFIT after shipping and fees. ARE YOU KIDDING. he bought the damn thing from the worlds most famous photo shop. anyone with a pc could have pricegrabbed a ton of BRAND NEW prices from Legit Retailers.

sad,sad, thing

in the end, if a lfs provides good service, with good people, and healthy livestock, they will always be around.

btw, your local supermarket could sell the cereal for or near wallmart prices, but they dont. why? they dont have to. the majority of shoppers either dont know or dont care!! the masses

sometimes it even makes them feel better paying more. silly, but true.

think japanese luxury (read re badged) cars. again, another american invention. many cars that are sold abroad are badeged as luxury items here. example. the lxeus is300 is the toyota alteeza to the rest of the world. sigh.

just some information. do with it what you like.

nemo g

[Silencer]

I understand the on-line craze and saving money, but would anyone go in to their LFS and say "Na na na na, na, I just bought this item that you have here on your shelf for a heck of a lot less.

I would... and do.

I have no problem telling a store owner that I have bought all of my equipment online and that I plan to continue doing so because of my limited budget. I am not going to make up lies and excuses so that I don't upset them, I am simply honest about my situation and my reasons.

Some store owners of course have an attitude change after I tell them this. I rarely visit and never spend money at these stores. If they want to treat me like an enemy for maximizing my limited money to get the biggest and best tank I can than I have no desire to give them my limited business.

Other store owners accept my situation for what it is and continue to treat me as a valued customer. They spend time talking with me, help me with any questions I have, offer their advice and don't try to push any sales on me. These are the stores I visit regularly and these are the stores I will be spending my money at now that my tank is ready for livestock.

[nemo g]

aye

nemo g

[Sm0kin]

how many people use netflix here? They are an online rental service h3ll bent on putting brick and mortar out of bussiness. Ebay sells lotions that are supposed to be available exclusively in salons. That is capitalism at its best. Be proud this can happen instead of complaining. I own a video store and tanning salon. I love online services and use them when i can. Why do these lfs stores not carry what we cheapskate diyers need for our projects? How often do you see plumbing parts in an LFS? You have to grow with the times.

[sequential]

Sm0kin, Netflix is a rip off, though it's selection is unparalleled. I use my local Blockbuster and get 60 movies a month and have a Blockbuster online pass, which gets, at most, 10 movies a month on the one out plan. The in store plan is 2 out at a time. I go every day. The online pass is for movies they don't carry in stock at my store. Total cost is about $35. I don't have cable. (Talk about rip offs! Ugh. Cable is the Worst. Thing. Ever.) I don't always watch every movie, but there are five people in my house, so they always get consumed by someone.

eBay is hit or miss with salon products. I can buy Kerastase at the only local salon that uses it for 30% or more less than I can get it on eBay for the same size. Since my fiance is a stylist there, she can get it for 70% less. (No, she can't sell it for a profit. People have been fired for such offenses because salons can lose their distribution rights.) For mid-range products, eBay is king, but Kerastase is a very limited, highly controlled distribution. Oh, and many products "only sold in the salon" are also now sold at grocery stores and Target. (You probably know all this, but this is for the benefit of many others in the thread who might not.) In fact, many of them are sold at salons too, but few of them are actually used in salons because they are sold in retail packaging only, even at the professional shops. Oh, you just have to love marketing.

As to why they don't carry parts for DIY folks? Four words: Home Depot and Lowes.

Don't take this wrong, I am completely behind what you're saying, but, you know, I had to be devil's advocate with the exceptions.

[HornetMech242]

At least for my the DIY part adds satisfaction. I get pleasure out of knowing that i have made an item myself. For me personally it is not about saving a buck. Dont get me wrong, i like saving a buck here and there.

I am located in So Cal and i have a few stores that i go to on a regular basis. One store after three visits, started giving me a 10-20% discount every time.

But to say that DIY people are a waste and give out bad advice is not correct either. I bet most of the people here that tackle a DIY project dont get there advice at the LFS. Like me, i bet they get it either here or on web search pages. I can search DIY skimmers and get a few dozen pages at least with enough information to put together my own unit. Doing that wasted no ones time or efforts.

Chris

[phlipper84]

Getting off point a little bit here. If you go to Wal Mart, you may notice that prices have begun to creep up on many items. While it is true that you can buy your froot loops on the cheap, have you ever noticed that their chips are almost always higher than a sale price at a food store. And Wal Mart never puts that item on sale. They are starting to be held accountable to their investors and need to show more profit. They do Billions in sales during the holidays but you will never once hear them comment on what they made in profits. The other reason for the increase in their pricing is the demise of the mom & pop grocery stores, hardware stores, etc.
Like I said in an earlier post, to go into the LFS and say "look I can get it for this price on the internet, can you even come close?" is a nice way to go about it. The goal here is not to put the LFS out of busines, but to help them stay in. Towards the beginning of this thread I commented that the store selling the bulbs for 80 dollars a pop was hosing him. They lost him as a customer, and even worse may lose his friends as customers. They obviously really don't care about the average hobbyist. Most stores of this nature are making their money of of service. Lets talk about 65+ per hour for labor that they may be paying 10-15 dollars an hour for. Plus you get to add the fish and supplies and get your price for those also. There is a good chance that the owner has only been in the shop once so they are the only price they know. And they are probably not unhappy with the service. It saves them having to clean the tank, stock the tank and make sure everything is current. Have to remember the time aspect of this hobby. The first question I get when anybody sees my tank is how much time do you spend maintaining it? Be serious, do you think someone who just wants the beauty of a saltwater aquarium in their 500K house is really going to be able to chase down online stores, let alone multiple LFS? I tend to believe that they are working their a** off paying the mortgage on said house as well as payments on the Escalade out front.
Lastly, Some stores do carry some plumbing parts. However, usually they never have the exact right part I need. It is too bad that they don't because they would at least be there to help, unlike Lowes or Home Depot.
The next thing people will say is , I did want to give him the business and he never has the item in stock. It is extremely difficult in retail to explain one thing, the store owns it! You go into the store and see their shelves filled with supplies, they paid for it. They are too small to ask for terms, it is cash up front. So to ask them to stock a major degree of plumbing parts is wishful thinking