Hypo'ed display tank. Did I mess up? - Page 2

rrrrob · #26 05/26/2007, 01:59 PM

I am sure ich can be erradicated in a QT tank, but what's the point? Ich shouldn't be a problem in a healthy environment, ocean or otherwise.

Freed · #27 05/26/2007, 02:02 PM

But it is and can be. Your arguments are useless and senseless. Case in point, my QT tank. Perfectly healthy system. Cycled long long time ago before I put my copper band and my six line wrasse in. Zero nitrates, ammonia, etc., etc., pH, alk, calcium all fine and perfect. Perfect system? YES. Did ich show up two weeks into QT? YES. Was hypo performed and did it kill all the ich in and on the fish and in QT? Well of course. When tranferred to another tank with fish already in there that had been QTd did ich magically appear out of nowhere even though the fish in there already and the fish being transferred were "stressed" from their new surroundings? NO!!! Well how about that? What else is there to argue about? NOTHING!!! Please give up your senseless dribble.

bassist6108 · #28 05/26/2007, 07:17 PM

---

Vitaly · #29 05/26/2007, 07:19 PM

Freed...I stumbled into this thread because rrrrob directed me to it from another thread where he is also pushing his personal belief that ich is caused by bad water. I will tell you right now that to argue with this individiual is futile.

In that thread I invited rrrrob to please direct me to any links/articles that support his position. I see that in this thread there are numerous, unfounded claims such as "it is documented that fish in polluted waters succumb to ich"...yet I still see no support for this claim either in that thread or this one.

Again, I encourage all members to discuss ideas and experiences openly. But, when it comes to disease treatment...we should proceed by an evidence based strategy.

"When treatments are applied with an understanding of the parasite’s life cycle, the chances of success increase significantly." (Dickerson, 1994)

Freed · #30 05/26/2007, 08:13 PM

So if you are knocking his claims down then why would he want you to defend him? His argument is ridiculous.

Vitaly · #31 05/26/2007, 09:54 PM

Take a deep breath and then re-read my post and hopefully my position will be clear.

My thesis is that we are allowed our opinions. But we should support our claims with some studies/data/facts. He is entitled to a ridiculous argument...but he should support it. So far I have not seen any, but I am hoping that he will provide some or stop perpetuating myths.

With respect to the life cycle, epidemiology and pathology of Cryptocaryon irritans infection the evidence is overwhelming. It is up to the hobbyist to decide how to implement it.

treejohnny · #32 05/26/2007, 11:11 PM

the ick debate is one that will go on for a long time.... i believe both are right. from what i have read the ick parasite is in most tanks (espically LFS) and is hard to keep out of our tanks. just because our fish dont get "white spots" dont mean that our tanks our ick free. we can go thru the battle with ick in new fish and hypo treat for 6 weeks (all new fish) and hope that our LR doesnt have any on it.....and not to mention our corals

on the other hand if you keep your water parameters where they belong, fish fed, and not stressed out i believe your fish will not get ick

if you have ick in water and healthy fish.....parasite has no host

if you take 4" tang and put in 10G QT tank good chance he will get ick as tangs will be stressed out in small tank

now all of this info is what i have gathered from alot of geek reading on this forum and am interested in others opinions of my gatherings

Vitaly · #33 05/27/2007, 01:53 AM

FIRST: "Stress" or "poor water quality" do not cause Marine Ich.

Yes, such states may lower an animals innate immune response thus impairing their ability to prevent the parasitic theront (free swimming parasite) from establishing itself in the tissue. There is obviously some innate immune and genetic component, otherwise there would not be a difference of infection rates among fish (high in tangs, boxfish and absent in the draggonets). The bottom line and indisputable fact is that...if Ich is not present in a tank, it doesn't matter how muich aggression occurs, how bad the water gets or how starved the fish are...they cannot be infected.

SECOND: "Ich is always present in our tanks"

Just look at the life cycle and think about the requirements of the pathogen.

https://netfiles.uiuc.edu/stepensk/s...yptocaryon.jpg

By definition this pathogen is an obligate parasite; therefore it can not survive nor complete its life cycle without a host. Theronts (free swimming parasite) have been shown to have a very short life span, majority surviving on the order of 12-18 hours.

If your aquarium has no fish in it (fallow) then your tank is free of ich.

If your aquarium does have fish in it...and none of the fish that have occupied the tank have been sick in the last six weeks (upper limit for the entire life cycle) then your tank is free of ich.

--------

So the question then is:

How does a fish housed in a tank that has been free of infection, and thus free of Cryptocaryon irritans, become infected by Cryptocaryon irritans*** from any of the factors cited in the debate (aggression, water quality, nutrition, immune state, etc)?

*** assuming that one of the stages of the Cryptocaryon life cycle (theront, tomant, tomite) is not untroduced intentionally or accidentally ***

I humbly await a response.

Freed · #34 05/27/2007, 03:15 AM

Vitaly, exactly what I have researched and try to instill in others.

rrrrob · #35 05/27/2007, 10:52 AM

So the question then is:

How does a fish housed in a tank that has been free of infection, and thus free of Cryptocaryon irritans, become infected by Cryptocaryon irritans*** from any of the factors cited in the debate (aggression, water quality, nutrition, immune state, etc)?

------------------------

THAT'S NOT THE QUESTION AT ALL. I am sure you can sterilize a tank from ich. And I don't believe I have said here that ich, a living organism, will arise by spontaneous generation (i.e., that living organisms arise out of thin air). What I am trying to tell you is that fish have natural immunity to ich when in a clean/stress-free environment. Again, all the hypoing/copper in the world will at best address a sympton, not a cause. You folks seem to be saying that the cause doesn't matter--get rid of the ich and the poor water quality/stress issue won't matter. For the well-being of your animals, I implore you to rethink this.

Freed · #36 05/27/2007, 10:54 AM

Uh, it doesn't if you have put EVERYTHING WET through QT before placing in main tank.

Freed · #37 05/27/2007, 11:01 AM

Get rid of the ich to begin with and poor water quality, good water quality, "stress", doing your dishes, cutting your grass won't make ich magically appear.

Black Mammoth · #38 05/27/2007, 10:35 PM

I also believe that diseases, parasites, etc evolve quicker than our knowledge about them. We have all kinds of strains of virus for humans. I wouldn't be surprised stuff like ich (although not a virus) may have several mutations where we see different results.

I would suggest keeping the tank stable and QTing the fish would probably be the safest solution. Sure, there could be ich in the system when you are done...maybe not, but if the tank is stable, there's a chance the fish will stay healthy. Here is my thought.

QT the fish and treat with hypo & copper. Becareful on the copper as not all fish can handle copper. Also, make sure you fish have ich and not something like velvet or...crap...I forget...there is something angels get that looks like ich, but isn't...actually copper will make that worse. Anyway, QT the fish...keep the main tank fish free for at least 6 weeks. In the meantime I would suggest a UV sterilizer with low flow to kill at the bacteria level.

All of this may be extreme and may not get rid of it for good, but I believe this is the most proven way.

prostaff · #39 05/27/2007, 11:35 PM

Thank you all for the input. It was quite interesting hearing both sides. I lost 8 of the 12 fish but it seems the system is finally stabilizing. I believe the hypo treatment worked for the ick but the faulty test kit caused me to be too late with what i believe to be the cause of death, Ammonia poisoning.
This is what I have decided to do. Please let me know what you think.
I am setting up a 2100 gal system, 2 displays (1000g reef and 680 FOWLR plus 400gsump plus 100g fuge). I had the brilliant idea to collect all the fish first before introducing simultaneously into the new tanks to avoid aggression.
New plan- I will cycle the new system in hypo salinity and slowly introduce the fish I have collected so far. In a way, using the new system as one large qt system. The corals and clams will be left in the old system for 6 weeks until the new system has been slolwly stepped up to regular salinity after the 6 week period. Any new addditions after this period will be qted in hypo for 6 weeks before addition to the main system.
A UV sterilizer will also be used on the new system

prostaff · #40 05/27/2007, 11:40 PM

Does anybody forsee any problems that may arise from this?
How long can fish survive in hypo?
Are there any known parasites of fish that can survive 6-8weeks of hypo only to infest the display after that period is over?
I intend on buying whatever other fish I want and adding them directly to the hypo display

Freed · #41 05/28/2007, 05:59 AM

Don't add directly to hypo. You need to acclimate them over a day or two to the lowered salinity. I believe that longer periods of hypo can supposedly damage some fishs kidneys but that will have to be answered by someone else. I have never heard of cycling a tank while it is being hypo'd so hopefully someone else can answer that for you.

rrrrob · #42 05/28/2007, 08:29 AM

a good trick for introducing new fish while avoiding aggression if your setup will allow: every time you introduce a new fish/fishes, rearrange the tank so that everyone is disoriented. Of course, not every tank can handle that--depends on what your set-up is like.

Good luck!

P.S.: what test kit were you using in the first place that gave you the false readings?

kevin2000 · #43 05/28/2007, 08:53 AM

My 02

Your siggested method of fully stocking your new tank with fish using hypo will likely end in disaster. Remember that a new tank has no ability to convert toxic ammonia ... thats one of the reasons that "SLOW" is the operative word in SW tanks. People add one or two fish and then wait weeks for the tank to adjust before adding another fish. Same prinicple applies here.

Your best bet is to start off your tank with normal SG and slowly add fish that have been QT'd in hypo ... will take along time to fully stock your tank but it will be a healthy mature tank.

Hope this helps.

prostaff · #44 05/28/2007, 08:51 PM

Thats what I meant by CYCLING the tank first. I was going to put in some liverock from my 3 yr old tanks that has some nuisance algae on it anyway into the main display. Then bring that down to 14ppt which will kill algae and worms and produce ammonia. I will let that cycle the main display before SLOWLY adding the fish in.
I am just not sure how long I can keep the fish in hypo without causing damage. I have about 12 fish that have been in hypo in a 180gal fowlr display tank for about 6 weeks now with no ill effects so far. How much longer can they stay there?

rrrrob · #45 05/29/2007, 07:21 AM

can you tell us what test kit(s) you were using that gave the false readings? I would like to avoid...Thanks!

luke33 · #46 05/29/2007, 07:38 AM

I'll add my .02 as well. If you removed your inverts and all you have is fowlr, no corals. Here's what'll happen. Your going to have some die off on your LR and your hitchhikers will die off......most of them, some may live, and reproduce if your lucky. Your LR will recover just fine but it may take a few months, the bacteria will still be there but you may have a spike in Ammonia and nitrites, as well as trates. This will be from the die off, but all in all, you'll be ok and ick free in the end. Its definately not recommended to do but it'll work.

prostaff · #47 05/29/2007, 10:30 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by rrrrob
can you tell us what test kit(s) you were using that gave the false readings? I would like to avoid...Thanks!

Sorry rrrrob. I was so ****ed that I threw it out immediately and now I am not so sure which one it was. I have so many test kits down there. I usually use Salifert but I did not have ammonia available since I obviously have not needed to test for that in a long long time

prostaff · #48 05/29/2007, 10:39 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by luke33
I'll add my .02 as well. If you removed your inverts and all you have is fowlr, no corals. Here's what'll happen. Your going to have some die off on your LR and your hitchhikers will die off......most of them, some may live, and reproduce if your lucky. Your LR will recover just fine but it may take a few months, the bacteria will still be there but you may have a spike in Ammonia and nitrites, as well as trates. This will be from the die off, but all in all, you'll be ok and ick free in the end. Its definately not recommended to do but it'll work.

So most people hypo in a seperate tank. How do you prevent ammonia build up? just with frequent water changes? I was hoping to be able to accomplish the same thing on a larger scale to prevent stressing the fish with the extra moves. If I could get them all in the final resting place without allowing for parasites due to hypo conditions and then slowly bring the whole system to regular SG with everyone in place before adding corals. This would also allow the rest of the liverock/corals which would have been fish free for 8 weeks to be parasite free???

luke33 · #49 05/30/2007, 07:10 AM

If you hypo your fish in a qt thats been set up and is established, you don't have to worry about Ammonia, its cycled and the hypo conditions won't hurt the good bacteria. No if you use copper, thats different, or any other medication. That'll destroy the good bacteria and here comes the ammonia and trites.

prostaff · #50 05/30/2007, 06:30 PM

So how do you keep thr hypo tank always ready? do you just feed it food or keep a damsel in there constantly or do you have to plan 2 months ahead for fish all the time?