Thanks KirstenK

[Elliott]

hmm, Kirsten, you still there? we need you!

I've been going to the meetings for about a year now, only because I enjoy the company. I have no interest in any more structure than it already has. I'd like to see someone continue to do the things that Kirsten has done so well and keep it going.

[Fliger]

I hardly get to 3 or 4 meetings a year but they are always fun. Kirsten and the group all do a great job. Hopefully it stays as fun as it has. I don't see why it should be changed, its not THAT large of a group. What are locals missing that we'd gain if we added more structure? Most decisions are by committee and if they don't work - they change. If KK ever leaves, or gets tired of all the commentary I hope there is someone around to take the lead.

I'm not saying a more formal group couldn't be better, but you certainly run the risk that it could be worst.

[kirstenk]

hmmm........FRAG is central. About as central as we can get without being in a not so very nice part of town. Nope this map does not show every outer community but close enough to get the jist. Those that travel greater distances need to think about planning a day of it and visiting the LFS in the area.

[kirstenk]

Originally posted by moore_rb
If any of you REALLY believe that's what the Phx reef keeping community wants, then why not go out and start another formal club and try to recruit members? Why is there a desire to trespass on FRAG's success.

Kirsten succeeded where others have failed; so someone PLEASE explain the logic to me in taking the failed practices of DMS and trying to mold the future of FRAG around them?

Have to agree here.

Folks there is plenty of history on these boards of what transpired with DMS and the beginnings of FRAG. DMS actually kicked the founders of FRAG out of the DMS Forum and although DMS was on the way out that action by them put the nails in the coffin. Take some time and read and you will find that DMS has tried to resurrect, only to fail again.

I have no problem with a FRAG West but to say that it has to be formed because FRAG is unaccommodating is pure fantasy.

[Philwd]

I guess I'm late to the party here. When I first got into the hobby almost 4 years ago my first FRAG meeting was in the corner of a pizza joint. Maybe 7 or 8 people. Just thinking about it makes me realize of the 8 only myself and Kirsten are left. Of all the people who had the killer tanks and were my inspiration 4 years ago only 1 is left.

And that in a nutshell shows why a formal club setting has never worked here. Phoenix is very transitory. The reef scene is much smaller than other areas like Southern Ca. Too many people leave the hobby or town. Not enough left able or willing to take the reins. I mean when Borneman pulls less than 20 people at a DMS event that shows the commitment in this town. Not to mention the fiasco Oceano was. If we had a dues structure I don't know what the club could offer that wasn't resoundingly rejected before.

PROP is the closest thing to a formal structure we have in town. I'm not against clubs. I was in an astronomy club here in town for many years. We were recognized nationally and internationally for our members. But after a couple years there was great difficulty getting anyone to run for officers. Anyone capable had already served and didn't want to again. And getting guest speakers was a nightmare. I did serve on the board there for a few years. You know what really held that club together? Not the monthly meetings or talks. The informal observing sessions. One person found a couple dark sites where everyone could just go and be themselves and have a good time. Once or twice a month.

And that's where FRAG's strength lies too. The informal get togethers. It will take 1 or 2 people willing to make sure the event site is arranged for and maybe get a speaker occasionally or raffle going. I would love to see the Parade of Reefs resurrected. The one at my home was the last one. Tiff did such a great job with those.

I'll end with a very big thank you to Kirsten. The fish whisperer. For doing what no one else was willing to do.

[Philwd]

Ron and Kathy- going back through I missed one of your posts. I agree people can be resistant to change. In this particular case FRAG was the change. It took 4 years to get where it is today. If I had seen evidence that Phoenix could actually support a dues paying club then I'd be a part of it. But I haven't seen that evidence.

When the pizza place where we originally met and had the auctions closed down people looked all over town for a spot. It's where it is not because it's convienient for the east siders but because that's the establishment that worked out the best. It's a much farther drive for east siders than the previous spots but granted not as far as the old DMS location.

[bajabum]

I participate with many groups accross the country. IMO the informal structure of Frag allows for flexibility. I see Frag not as a single entity, but as a collection of social groups with a common focus and a variety of social needs.
Somebody needs to take charge of the sticky thread that has the meeting dates. 2007 Frag facts needs to be updated for 2008.
Somebody needs to take charge of the Pranksters meeting thread like Kirsten did for so long come rain or shine.

I imaging RC requres a single point of contact for control of the sticky threads.

Kirsten has already taken care of getting Prankster for another year and JMCAquarium has made arraingements to continue on with the Fragwest meetings. Correct me if I am wrong, but Prankster meetings have been standing room only for some time.

I believe personal interest of the Frag participants will take care of the rest. Flexibility to participate on a personal level. We all have something to contribute.

[OwenInAZ]

Ultimately, if the reefing community in Phoenix isn't interested in more structure to FRAG, it won't happen. I'm not saying that we need to run the meetings like a debate club, with parlimentary procedure and big wigs and decorum. The spontenaity is part of the allure, I'll admit. However, even a little bit of order could help keep FRAG and PROP separate, to try and avoid PROP running over FRAG for profit. If we can do that, great. I just fear that the way things have been going recently indicate a great desire on the part of PROP and its members to make FRAG a de facto "client state" or simply a captive audience to auction their frags to.

[kirstenk]

baja......I will get the new FAQ's up for 2008, just a matter of changing the dates on the other one for the most part.

I believe personal interest of the Frag participants will take care of the rest. Flexibility to participate on a personal level. We all have something to contribute.

I agree.

[kirstenk]

Originally posted by OwenInAZ
Ultimately, if the reefing community in Phoenix isn't interested in more structure to FRAG, it won't happen. I'm not saying that we need to run the meetings like a debate club, with parlimentary procedure and big wigs and decorum. The spontenaity is part of the allure, I'll admit. However, even a little bit of order could help keep FRAG and PROP separate, to try and avoid PROP running over FRAG for profit. If we can do that, great. I just fear that the way things have been going recently indicate a great desire on the part of PROP and its members to make FRAG a de facto "client state" or simply a captive audience to auction their frags to.

The way things have been going recently? Your 4 months of involvment here have led you to this conclusion?

Once again I urge you to do some research on these forums and find out the facts. In all actuality PROP did try to run FRAG off 4 years ago when they formed. They went so far as to eliminate the FRAG FAQ, the FRAG description in the main club forum of RC and opened a new PROP Forum. They also took the available dates where FRAG was meeting and made them PROP dates which forced FRAG to find other suitable times to meet. Back then PROP allowed no trading at the auctions, they certainly allowed no selling unless it was in the auction. They did all this without a whisper to the members of FRAG. Just happened. And this captive audience you speak of? The original members of PROP (all gone now) wanted to use the monies from the auction to eventually sell frags online not even offering first frags to the very people of this community who helped them get the frags in the first place.

And I will state for the record that if I had not STEPPED UP and taken actions to revive FRAG it would be GONE!!! We would have PROP and only PROP and it is very doubtful I would be a member. To say that PROP is trying to make FRAG a thing of the past is hurtful to me. FRAG has been my first and foremost priority for the past 3 1/2 years and it saddens me that I have basically been forced by armchair complainers to choose between the two. And I will also state that these complainers have been requested on numerous times to step up and apply to PROP and have never done so.......they just want to try and manipulate both organizations from behind the scenes.

You want a place to start researching........PM me and I will get you started but I think its kinda bold to come in here and say what you have without knowing the facts.

[kirstenk]

.....one other thing about the money PROP takes in. Originally PROP took 25% of every coral sale. 25%! Today it is 10%.

And regarding your other post about the way items are listed. The Auction listing thread goes onto this forum Friday the week before at 8pm. Everyone is given the chance to list then. You choose to list later then your corals will sell later. Plain and simple. Don't ask PROP to divvy up the list cuz you didn't want to take the effort to post earlier. There are rules and they are fair. They won't please everyone and like I said before......PROP does recruit new members.

[jerryz]

To answer Jesse's question earlier I would be more than happy to participate in leadership.

I guess the question is, has FRAG and Phoenix for that matter matured enough to support some sort of structure. I would agree that the current meetings represent the strength of FRAG. However, if FRAG is ever going to be anything other than a swap meet for corals then it needs to look at who and what it is along with who and what we are. That means in terms of educational opportunities, community outreach, and even potentially purchasing power of club members with local LFS's.

In terms of the benefits of these things. Phil hit some of them on the head. However, I think the largest is retention. How long does someone stay with FRAG? In terms of membership, turnover is pretty high. Has anyone thought about why? A continuous influx of new people is fantastic... where are old timers? Providing enhanced opportunities for them is one area of potential member retention.

To everyone that says look at how this or that has failed in the past my response is, did carry a stone club and did you eat your breakfast over an open fire this morning? Nope, the mere fact that you responded on this board is proof that you have profited from the failures of others. Because every success comes from the failures that went before. So instead of looking back and saying my cave is safe. Look forward and ask why not type out a rebuttal on the internet?

[Ron1955]

I have no business speaking out being new to the area , no tank and not attending a meet yet but for a group of people that love the same thing, apparently liked each other suddenly are getting into a shouting match at who did what wrong and what needs done to improve it when in fact before Kristen said she was bowing out all was fine! Seem odd it was all fine no one spoke of remodeling the frag club , wanting officers dues etc did they ever tell her that? I dont see it yet anyone speeking on here anyhow to her about this only now that she is going to be gone in a position you all jump to the conclusion things have to change to move forward learn new things do new rules and envoke dues and envoke officers.
Why not just look at what she apparently had running for her years doing what she loved and realize what made your club work like ours in St Louis was what was being done not what need done. After all isnt the number one thing here about the group loving informal structure, meeting shooting the bull taking reef, having fun getting some frags, occasional speekers, free things raffles etc. I only hope her stepping down now does not disperse a group of friends into arch rivals fighting over things that apparently were not a concern before she left. I salute you Kersten for you speaking out.

[azrednex]

Kirsten, I would like to start by expressing my profound gratitude for the things that you have done for FRAG & PROP. I think that you have done a great job.
I don't think that you should allow these negative sentiments to push you to step down.

I would also like to say that I stopped going to meetings because there are just too many people there for the space. I breathed a sigh of relief when FRAG WEST started for no other reason than there would be slightly more room at REG FRAG.

[JMCAquarium]

FRAG West is up and going again see thread "West Side Frag Meeting" for details...

Kirstenk once again thanks for a job well done!!!

[Y-DesygnGuy]

Originally posted by azrednex
I would also like to say that I stopped going to meetings because there are just too many people there for the space. I breathed a sigh of relief when FRAG WEST started for no other reason than there would be slightly more room at REG FRAG.

Hmmm whats wrong with the west side people coming to the REGULAR FRAG? and im joking here by the way, but that did sound a bit weird the way you said it. What makes you think people wont go to both? I know I will be going to both, who doesn't have to drive across the valley for things? The valley has gotten so big it's impossible to not have to travel to get to things.

I know I have only been to a few meetings recently and I loved them. I went years and years ago with Badfish to the pizza place and hated it! That is why I stopped going and I stopped posting on the boards really.

kirstenk you rock for what you have done, I have enjoyed seeing you at the meetings, you always have a smile on your face and you make it fun and relaxed! *cheers* to you for doing something like this, it sounds like a thankless job. So I am sure it is nice to get some of these thank you finally!

This is supposed to be a hobby and for fun. I think we all waste our disposable income on this hobby so it should be fun and relaxed! I know I am not going to pay any dues to meet up with people with like interests. I do how ever think we as a group should do something "special" for the people who organize it and keep it going.

Just my two cents though...

[jerryz]

Actually dues could be used for something special like maintaining a tank at an old folks home or a Ronald McDonald House. Dues aren't just so money is collected. They are so we can accomplish something together that accomplished alone would have less meaning.

[Ron1955]

It is sad that Kersten had to retire sort of from her spot to get the recognition and praise this way sort of like an artist work worth more when gone but hopefully she is not gone one shuffled around to a spot that will benefit us all in other ways in the hobby. I also do not support dues of any kind it is irregular usually some not paying and owing and argument over where is this money goine etc so keep it friendly like it apparently is and my wife and me look forward to the first meeting we can attend.

[jerryz]

Ron and kathy,

do you specialize in Yoda speak?

[Zoa~Goddess]

Originally posted by Ron and Kathy
........................I also do not support dues of any kind it is irregular usually some not paying and owing and argument over where is this money goine etc so keep it friendly like it apparently is and my wife and me look forward to the first meeting we can attend.

100% agree!

[Ron1955]

Azrednex I have not attended a meet yet being new to the valley but I am like you if it is so crowded that is is standing room only etc that shows what? GROWTH in the hobby and club interest so what should a good club do with growth find a different place to accomidate the ammount of attendance so all are comfortable not stick to tradition only cause this has been the meet place why change change so we all can fit and have room for more growth. A lot of people like yourself will leave a club meet if it is just to overbearing in crowded feel, after all if you cant get a seat who wants to drive and then stand and eating standing not fun to me.
I hope this all works out and that the club dont end up with a chosen few that wont accomidate any change at all thus looking the others. It is evident by the west wanting to pull away so they also are accomidated in a fashion convienent to them also. What is so hard about alternation to make each side drive once in a while and what is wrong with finding a bigger place and changing the venue arena the problem is that is is CHANGE and set in ways people do not like change and this attitude sometimes ruins friendships and clubs, I hope this does not happen to this group.

[Zoa~Goddess]

Originally posted by widefx
I second the vote for Adrian

I vote Adrian also.

[Ron1955]

Jeryz what do you mean Yoda speak am i offending you in some way for if so speak out i can leave this group as fast as I came to it.

[widefx]

Originally posted by Zoa~Goddess
I vote Adrian also.

Hey you name changed

The new one is great

[Y-DesygnGuy]

Originally posted by jerryz
Actually dues could be used for something special like maintaining a tank at an old folks home or a Ronald McDonald House. Dues aren't just so money is collected. They are so we can accomplish something together that accomplished alone would have less meaning.

I have no problem at all with something like this, what a great idea!!!