|
|
|
|
#26
11/01/2006, 11:30 PM
|
|||
|
|||
|
Quote:
Other than the 3 black OC's in stock, here's the rundown from memory, so don't quote me. 1 or 2 Tomatos. 1 or 2 Maroons. At least a DOZEN Occelaris. We were talking bout fish species and why OC's are probably the best clownfish to breed...at first he didn't agree. All I had to do was point to his tanks and say "Well, how many occelaris do you have on hand right now, and WHY?" At any given moment, the closest LFS, and one of the higher end ones in the area, will have a small handful of dottyback species. Typical stocking levels? ONE OR TWO. How many occelaris are running around that same shop? I think they buy them 25 or more at a shot. Before I went out to pick up the Black OC pair, I called around to see what was on hand. The ONLY species that every shop in the area carried? Occelaris. Next most prevelent? Black Saddles (must be around right now). After that? Well, when I mentioned "rare clowns" (thinking blue stripes, allardii, blackfoots) the #1 response? The shops either HAVE, or recently had and are getting more, "Snowflake" or "Picasso" clowns..yeah, those ones retailing at $500-$700 a pair! The guppification of Occelaris clowns...another personally revolting concept but I CAN appreciate the guppy (to be fair, they were the first fish I ever breed followed by Sailfin Mollies, but even then, at only 6 years old, I opted to go with the WILD FORMS of the species!) Case closed in my book, I totally get it. Not that I want to breed regular Occelaris now...Percs are a tough sell compared to OC's, especially since they can take a LOOONG time to fully color up. The Black OC pair? Well, they're just so darn cute, and apparently the going wholesale rate at one area supplier is $20 a shot tank raised. I'll still gladly part with or move the pair if/when the latz show up! FWIW, Matt |
|
#27
11/02/2006, 11:36 AM
|
|||
|
|||
|
Orchids are not a slow seller, the thing is that if you don't have the other species they won't buy them from you, they will buy the from ORA and C-quest where they can get not all but more species, even if they don't have them available or enough they still wont buy them just because of their relationship with the earlier mentioned, the only way to get them to buy from you is to compete with such places, it can be done and you can push them but it will be difficult to have just that specie or any other that comands a high price as your sole income.
And as you thread says you are looking for a one specie that sells high to take advantage of it, with one is not gonna happen, try broadening your stocks. even with yellow tangs and angels in order to be successful with it you will need to find a protocol that will allow you to raise the fish a the lowest cost possible to compete with wild caught. If the price of a yellow tang TR will be around 80-90 dollars you will not sell them as long as wild caught is available.Same case with the mandarins, you will say oh but they are TR eating prepared foods, well people like us care about that, and we are a small percentage, the regular costumer and most wholesalers don't, I have a wholesaler very close that gets orchids for 3.50 each do you think he is gonna buy mine for 8-10? I stopped raising yellow clown gobies, have about 400 left, the current collector price is 65 cents plus shiping it lands at about 1.20 each, wholesalers won't give me more than $2 for them and it does not make sense to raise them.Even when TR eats all foods, has no disease and the WC they get they claim they have 35% losses upon arrival. Ed Last edited by ediaz; 11/02/2006 at 11:59 AM. |
|
#28
11/02/2006, 12:00 PM
|
|||
|
|||
|
I think this is a bigger issue than just finding an appropriate fish to make someone a profit. Congress needs to know about your ability to raise these creatures and your inability to compete with wild caught animals. It would be a shame for you, ediaz and other breeders, to discontinue production because you can't compete with WC. I'd be happy to draft a letter, although someone else would probably know lots more about the subject.
|
|
#29
11/02/2006, 12:00 PM
|
|||
|
|||
|
I think this is a bigger issue than just finding an appropriate fish to make someone a profit. Congress needs to know about your ability to raise these creatures and your inability to compete with wild caught animals. It would be a shame for you, ediaz and other breeders, to discontinue production because you can't compete with WC. I'd be happy to draft a letter, although someone else would probably know lots more about the subject.
|
|
#30
11/02/2006, 12:25 PM
|
|||
|
|||
|
Here's a case in point - 40 spawns, not a single mandarin raised yet. If I was doing this as a business, um, I'd probably be "down and out". How many of you are going to want TR Mandarins at oh, lets say $90 each retail?
The one company I could see with actually pulling that off would be Ocean Rider...afterall look at the price discrepency between TR and WC Seahorses! Guess I already know who I should try to sell my first mandarins to...  Matt |
|
#31
11/02/2006, 12:28 PM
|
|||
|
|||
|
FishGuttz- I completely agree with you that the government should look into us small breeders and see what we are doing, but honestly, it's probably a waste of time. I think it's pathetic how they fund all these schools and such for this matter and all the schools do in return is "reinvent the wheel". There was a post on here a couple weeks ago how the government gave a pile of money to someone for research and all they did (that we know of) is breed Clownfish. I think Ed or Matt or most anyone on this page that is as into this part of the hobby as those two guys are should get all the money that the schools are getting, andthen some! But, unfortunatly, I think it would be hard to get that kind of funding. Just my opinion.
Tom ps.- I'm not telling you in any way that it will NEVER happen, I'm just saying I think it will be extremely tough.
__________________
"I got me a big wave, ride me a big wave, got me a big..WAVE!" Ed Veddar It's a reef thing, you wouldn't understand! |
|
#32
11/02/2006, 12:31 PM
|
|||
|
|||
|
Well maybe me, if I see a TR mandarin at $90 at the store Ill say:
"Honey look, Matt finally raised a frigging fish, go get the checkbook." Chck around the fish/horse or responsible forum, i THINK some of them are banned or even in CITES. Ed |
|
#33
11/02/2006, 01:21 PM
|
|||
|
|||
 You have quite the sense of humor Ed. I have some $90 Onxy Percs at 1/4" to sell ya, so break out that checkbook!!! I have some insider info I'm not allowed to "directly share" on the mandarin front - I'm going to crack them, probably early 2007 at this point. Hatching is STILL problematic!Matt |
|
#35
11/02/2006, 03:43 PM
|
|||
|
|||
|
thansk for the tips ediaz, the situation is rather different here in OZ as there is no ORA or others, but i understand what you mean, you need 20 ocellaris to sell 5 orchids.
Christian |
|
#36
11/02/2006, 06:10 PM
|
|||
|
|||
|
Quote:
  
|
|
#37
11/04/2006, 12:09 AM
|
|||
|
|||
|
Just an update - Indigo Dottybacks have just dropped in price from $89 to $59 at LA - http://www.liveaquaria.com/diversden...1952&siteid=20
Told ya so...not all that great a fish in my book! STICK WITH TRUE SPECIES! Matt |
|
#38
11/06/2006, 11:32 AM
|
|||
|
|||
|
While not a breeder, I'd like to perhaps make a few comments on this thread from the retailer's perspective.
First off - simply an echo of the common consensus that A. ocellaris is our bread and butter. I sell very close to twice as many Ocellaris as all other clownfish varieties combined, and I tend average somewhere between eight and a dozen species, roughly twenty to twenty five SKU's of clownfish in total, in stock at any given time. We do purchase some wild clownfish - primarily full-adult mated pairs, though we also purchase a fair number of wild "onyx" Percula clowns. Of the non-Ocellaris species, Perculas are far and away the best-selling for us. Clarkii, Bicinctus, and Polymnus are next, with the single-band species and maroons bringing up the rear. Small Tomato and Rubrocinctus sell fairly well, but only when small enough to still retain their extremely bright red-orange colour. We've seen maroons take a very sharp decline in popularity over the past two years. They sell fairly well when they're large - four inches plus - to customers with predatory fish-only aquariums, but they sit in our tanks aside from that. Moving on from clownfish, there are three other major groups of fish I'd love to see more of: Jawfish, Cardinalfish, and Gobies. Of the jawfish, we're able to fill roughly half our demand for Dusky (Opistognathus whitehurstii) and about a fifth of our demand for Yellow-head/Pearly jawfish with locally captive-bred fish. Occasionally we'll have a breeder bring in a couple of Bali Tiger (undescribed as far as I know, sorry for the lack of a proper name), but those are the only two species out of the half-dozen or so varieties we try to stock that I can get any quantity of captive-raised. Yellowhead/Pearly jawfish are the species that are needed in quantity. Not Ocellaris quantity, no, but I sell roughly one yellowhead jawfish for every four ocellaris clowns - on par with A. percula, and far more than any of the other clowns. They've been steadily getting more and more expensive of late, too - average wholesale for me is now US$8-12 a fish, up from US$5-6 just a couple of years ago. If you can figure out how to make $10-15 a fish profitable, they'll be a mainstream seller. Opistognathus rosenblatti isn't going to be mainstrem, but wholesale has been creeping up from the US$38-40 they were a few years ago...$52-60 is about average for that species now, and that seems like it could be worth some investigation to my non-breeder mind.  Of the cardinals, S. nematoptera is pretty readily available cultured and isn't as popular as it used to be anyway. The huge demand for P. kauderni isn't going anywhere - we have several local breeders working with them and purchase them from ORA whenever they have them available...and we still can't meet demand for them. They're just not worth importing these days (of the final six batches of wild Kaudern's we brought in, over 80% died within the first three days), so we're stuck with whatever we can find captive-bred. Apogon leptocanthus is becoming quite popular - we don't have a captive source for it yet. There are at least half a dozen different cardinalfish species that come in under the trade names of "dwarf" or "Japanese" cardinalfish that seem to be several things - ideal ultra-peaceful reef fish, wildly popular, and next to impossible to identify. There's certainly potential there. With the flourishing popularity of nano-reef tanks, I think the gobies might perhaps be among the most interesting prospects for captive-breeding. There are so many unique little fish that are going to be lost to the trade as CITIES and other import/export restrictions grow. Too many of the dwarf, nano, and shrimp gobies we bring in sell before we can even attach a scientific name to their tag. Local enthusiast breeders are probably the only hope of keeping some of these fish in the trade, long-term. But, this thread is about marketablitity...and there are some species that are clearly marketable. The obvious one is Gobisoma oceanops, the every-day cleaner goby, though all the species in the oceanops-complex are certainly popular. The smaller shrimp gobies - Amblyeleotris randalli, A. fasciata, A. guttata, A. wheeleri, and Stonogobiops nematodes are the most popular for us. The Yellow Watchman Goby isn't as popular as it used to be, but it's a good staple goby. Amblygobius hectori and rainfordi are both quite popular. Some of the sleeper/sand-sifting gobies sell in massive quantities, and I've never seen/heard of anyone even making an atttempt at raising them. Valenciennea puellaris, strigata, and wardii are the most popular three, with the first outselling the other two at least six to one. If there's one commercially-raised group of fish I've never fully understood, it's the dottybacks. Some sell in okay numbers, but they're just not that popular a group of fish. If you've got them, I'll certainly buy them...but I'm going to be calling you about more Ocellaris, more Perculas...not orchid dottybacks. And absolutely no hybrids. I certainly have to make decisions that make the ethics-centre twitch all the time, but as MWP has stated a few times, why waste the time and facilities when there are other species that you could be breeding? Speaking as a retailer, I'm not going to buy them. |
|
#40
11/06/2006, 05:19 PM
|
|||
|
|||
|
Fins,
Thanks for that incredibly useful and proprietary information. I think you'll be the new link for people asking the "how much for my fish?" question. I am considering an oceanops breeding system as we speak. Mostly because they are supposed to be easy to breed, but it's also nice to know I can sell the little guys! do you think redhead gobies would sell as well as the neons? |
|
#41
11/06/2006, 05:38 PM
|
|||
|
|||
|
TomRep-
I wouldn't stereotype all academic research based on that one article. Just b/c HPL had a grant to breed nemo doesn't mean the rest of us are also "reinventing the wheel". Much of what goes on is often not publishable by research standards. Yet, there are many academic research programs out there who are doing groundbreaking stuff. Maybe it's not exactly w/ ornamentals as much of it is with commerical scale rearing of marine food fish, but it's stuff that could be tried in the ornamental world. Quote:
|
|
#42
11/06/2006, 09:58 PM
|
|||
|
|||
|
Quote:
Actually, after rethinking this following posting, no, Red Heads might not sell quite as well. Neon Gobies have that great blue coloration...blue is one of the big draws to saltwater fish over many freshwater fish (with the noteable acception of the africans and discus and neon dwarf rainbow). PLUS, the Neon Goby group (including the gold lines) have the added benefit of being cleaners, AND the added benefit of not being so reclusive (it took MONTHS for my GBGs to settle down and show themselves now and again...the rusty gobies, well I think it's been 2-3 months and I still RARELY see them). The big drawback to ALL of these little gobies is that even when mature they are "surface skimmer bait" and get lost in big tanks. With the increased interest in nano-reefs these fish have more possible homes than before though. Matt |
|
#43
11/06/2006, 11:30 PM
|
|||
|
|||
|
AquaticFins, thank you for your opinion on this thread !
What´s the wholesale price for you on the neon gobies ? Any difference in preference from blue to yellow lined ? Anderson.
__________________
"Posso não saber de nada mas suspeito de muita coisa..." |
|
#44
11/07/2006, 12:31 AM
|
|||
|
|||
|
Aquaticfins,
Thanks for taking the time to chime in so clearly and concisely, bravo. Up here, without Ocellaris, you won't even get your foot in the door. Most places won't even consider A. frenatus or B. premnas unless they come "bundled" with 50 Ocellaris. Even then I might only get them into 20% of the local market. Low market species can be lots of fun to try out and some species are better than others to run experiments with, but other-wise it's a waste of valuable resources. With 7 species (make it 8 if you include the insanity that is H. reidi) currently on the go right now, sleep is but a distant memory. Getting into a larger scale setup like myself should only be done over time with the proceeds of previous sales unless you have deep pockets and more than plenty of time. The idea was to turn this into full time work for myself by 2009, but at this rate I might be dead before then  I HAD gold variant G. oceanops breeding, but raising the fry is a whole new ball game. One that I myself wasn't that successful at. The market for them is definately there, but as to whether or not they would be viable from a profit stand point I was never able to determine. My best advice is to start with A. ocellaris and take on more of them as your time/space/financial resources willl allow and couple that with market saturation issues before expanding into other species. If you keep this to a minimum/hobbiest level type endevour, it can be fun and rewarding, as soon as you cross the fuzzy line into hardcore supply chain management level it becomes WORK and you need to make sure you come up with a realistic business plan and RESEARCH your local/potential marketplace.
__________________
Prisoner Number 642 On parol for reefkeeping Currently doing "time" in a medium security breeding facility for the terminally insane |
|
#45
11/07/2006, 01:46 AM
|
|||
|
|||
|
Hey all - found that "top twenty" list in another forum while browsing for latezonatus
Here it is, quoted from that forum postingHere is a top 20 list of the most popular fishes collected for the marine ornamental trade. It was compiled by John Brandt a few years ago, so there have likely been some changes, but it will give you an idea of the market. 1.) Green chromis (Chromis viridis) 2.) Yellow tang (Zebrasoma flavescens) 3.) Ocellaris clownfish (Amphiprion ocellaris) 4.) Blue damselfish (Chrysiptera cyanea) 5.) 3-stripe damselfish (Dascyllus aruanus) 6.) Domino (3-spot) damselfish (Dascyllus trimaculatus) 7.) Yellowtail damselfish (Chrysiptera parasema) 8.) 4-stripe damselfish (Dascyllus melanurus) 9.) Cleaner wrasse (Labroides dimidiatus) 10.) Mandarinfish (Synchiropus splendidus) 11.) Royal gramma (Gramma loreto) 12.) Firefish (Nemateleotris magnifica) 13.) Blue tang (Paracanthurus hepatus) 14.) Percula clownfish (Amphiprion percula) 15.) Coral Beauty (Centropyge bispinosus) 16.) Flame angelfish (Centropyge loriculus) 17.) Scooter dragonet (Synchiropus sp.) 18.) Clark's clownfish (Amphiprion clarkii) 19.) Lyretail anthias (Pseudanthias squamipinnis) 20.) Six-line wrasse (Pseudocheilinus hexataenia) MP |
|
#46
11/07/2006, 07:51 AM
|
|||
|
|||
|
I agree with the rest of the posters (well most of them) on this thread and I thank you Aquaticfins for your opinion.
This was close to what I was looking for on this topic. I have a limitted market in Adelaide and was looking for other species to breed. Clowns are no problems except storage while the market catches up with me. So much so if I raise 25 per batch then I have plenty. Havent got to wholesalers yet, If there are any in Australia interested then let me know! The other problem in Australia is getting hold of some of these species. Gobies are few and far between and i have been trying to get my hands on a pair of bangais for a while now. Would be interested in doing a little groundbreaking like MWP but .. well its maybe a case of right place right time? and it hasnt happened yet! Cheers Nathan |
|
#47
11/07/2006, 09:15 AM
|
|||
|
|||
|
I didn't even consider the behaviour of the fish as a selling point, but I guess nobody wants a fish they never see.
I don't plan on being a supplier, I just want to be able to breed some small fish and have an outlet for my small successes. My LFS insists that breeding Ocellaris is nearly impossible and he "has a lot of friends in the business and no one he knows has been successful." Should I tell him about you guys. It's funny he owns the nicest lfs in NYC and has been extremely succesful for 20 years doing local sales, installations, and home maintenance. I guess the LFS guys have no idea what's going on with breeders. |
|
#48
11/07/2006, 11:35 AM
|
|||
|
|||
|
Misc FWIW...
I keep getting the same feedback from both retailers and wholesalers, there is nothing wrong with wc frenatus clowns. They are are healthy, have good color and wholesale for a few bucks. I can barely sell 5 at a time to a few select lfs and get only $6 for them, I have stopped breeding them and don't really think they are a good species to work (waste your time) with. IME the problem with the oceanops gobies is that they are fairly short lived, by the time you think you have a handle on raising them you lose the pair. If I were to try again I'd start with several pairs and add more every 6 months or so. That way if you get a working protocol going you will always have young breeders to work with. Raising bangaii is easy but until the market realizes this is a $39 fish (retail) it simply isn't worth it. I have 5 breeding pairs and I don't raise a single one, I am waiting in the hopes that the market will change. Right now wc bangaii are about $3.50 in LA. It is sad to note that retailers I talk to say even though they lose most of them they still make money. What an attitude  I agree completely that any hobby breeder/ fledgling business is going to need ocellaris to get recognized. Or percs but you'd probably sell them as oc's 
__________________
These are my rotifers. Without my rotifers I am nothing. Without me my rotifers are nothing. |
|
#49
11/07/2006, 12:08 PM
|
|||
|
|||
|
Quote:
I made the rounds to some other area shops over the weekend; here's a quick rundown of what was in the tanks. Shop #1 - 1 Black Clarki Pair, 1 "Goldfin Clownfish" Pair, a couple random Maroon clowns, a couple orange skunk clowns, and a bunch of ocellaris. Shop #2 - Black Saddles, nasty WC emmaciated clarkii's, Great looking Cinnamons, 1 pink skunk, 2 orange skunks, and a bunch of ocellaris. I could keep going...see a pattern yet....? Matt |
|
#50
11/07/2006, 12:20 PM
|
|||
|
|||
|
The guy who pays $5 for Ocellaris is not counting the $2 a fish he pays to have them shipped, and the cost of the dead ones he bought. When you enter into negotiations with your customers, do not fail to mention these things. This time of year, also mention that your fish don't have Brooklynella either, and if your buyers keep your fish in a seperate system from wild caught, they won't get sick and die before he can sell them.
If you deliver healthy fish, you should get a higher price for them. |
|
|
Linear Mode
