New Fish Store

[Fat Surgeon]

IMHO, Tucson is not ready for another store. I would love nothing more than one up on the NW side of town. However, If you go to the other stores, even on the busiest days, there is not a constant wave of people to keep another one going. Lets get more reefers and FOWLRS going and then come back to this question. I've been in business for 25 years,and while I'm no EXPERT, I do consider myself a good source of information for whether or not it stands a chance, and right now, I dont see that happening. In the end, you guys will do what you want, but the timing isnt right,and it is all about timing here guys. You wanna know what you should do? Instead of opening up another location, lets make the stores look incredible so that when people come in, they cant help but leave with something. Oh, and price things right guys. I understand your trying to keep the business going, compete with online retailers and make a living at the same time. People get turned off because of 3 things. Poor customer service (#1), High prices, and lack of selection. If you nip these 3 in the budd, you'll have a successful company and be able to sustain more stores. Just my .02, take it or leave it

[AZreefkeeper]

philpper84

You mentioned 3 stores, I have only been to Majestic and SWsaltwater. Can you tell me where the other one is? I did have a PM with Rob and I am looking fwd to seeing his store remodeled.

I don't argue the point that everyone seems to buy there dry goods on-line, we're looking for the best price. I don't think that the stores should carry every item, but at least the basics. New hobbiest can purchase most of their equipment on-line. Most first time hobbiest are using a second hand tank anyway, so I don't expect the stores to carry alot of equipment.

As for livestock selection that I believe should be there main focus.

Fat Surgeon
you are right about opening another store, but if one were to open and provided
Service
Selection
and Fair Prices

It might be interesting to see how the other stores react. My biggest concern is there are only 3 stores that have saltwater (2 that I've been to) so basically hobbiest in Tucson are at there mercy.

As for location, I think that those hobbiest that are dedicated will drive from one part of town to the other just to get there fix.

[Fat Surgeon]

AZreefkeeper,
The other store is Oasis Tropical Fish on Oracle between Prince and Roger. Dont look for anyone on here to refer you to that store. From what I have read on here the past few months, people seem to think they dont know what he is talking about. However, I have received better advice from him than anyone on this forum. Now don't get me wrong, some people on here are quite knowledgeable. But i've also read them bashing him and his store when I highly doubt they could do any better. He is also very competitive price wise and has, IMO the best fish and inverts in town and as of recently, has a pretty good coral selection. I personally enjoy going there when I am in town as well as Southwest Saltwater. I like Southwest CS and selection on Corals. Majestic has the worst CS of any LFS in town and I will never step foot in that store ever again. I still have yet to go to Tropical Kingdom since they have started saltwater (Am I right on this?) The last time I was in there was 3-4 yrs ago and I was horrified by the way they kept their tanks, so in all fairness, I cant say how they are now. Try out Oasis Tropical, I think you will like it and Hector is very nice and extremely generous with his knowledge. Like I said, when I come into town, I go to Oasis and then on to Southwest.

[owsi]

You have to develop your market Phil, if you never offer it it will never sell. New people get started in Tucson, then go on-line and Phoenix out of boredom and need. Phoenix gets close enough to on-line as did Zach when he was open, to make it fair to buy local. One last point Phil, Tucson was on of the first mail order Salt Stores, Roger Bull shipped Turbos and all kinds of cutting edge corals from here in the late 80's. I don't Know Rob that well, but I know Zach could make it go here. If you think small as most of Tucson does, you will stay small. Then there is always that Tucson surcharge the makes you want to buy local, the local business's charge more then the gas and time to drive to Phoenix and complain when you don't buy "Tucson first"

[Fat Surgeon]

If I said it once (which I did), I will say it three more times.......Customer service, Customer service, Customer service......

[AZreefkeeper]

Fat Surgeon
I will go there tomorrow.

Thats the problem with boards like this, one mans opinion can ruin the reputation of anothers. I guess I will have to just see for myself.

Thanks
Vince

[AZreefkeeper]

owsi
Your right about offering a selection. If more people could see what a nice display be it Reef or FOWLR system could look like I bet there would be more of a market.

I recently went to the BioSphere and was very disappointed with the way the tanks looked there. Good thing the're selling that place it make the hobby look bad.
Fat Surgeon
Service... your right about that. I've been in many stores where the clerks just watch you walk in and walk out. Not just here but in So. Cal also.
I especially like it when they try to BS you into buying something that say you have to have.

[Fat Surgeon]

Isnt that so true about the BS? That's why I am constantly telling people to research. After you have researched, then you can go in "armed" so to speak and ask the right questions and differentiate the info you need and chuck the rest. After all, no one in this hobby, no matter how long or how short you have been into it, will ever know everything. Ive done things in this hobby that completely defy what other people have said to be stone cold truth, but have also relied heavily on information from reliable sources.
I was in La Jolla on business this past week and went into a really AWESOME store down by Mirimar (Aquatic Warehouse). That store, with everything they had and their prices, blew me away. The clencher was the customer service. Best in the industry I have ever experienced. These guys will stop cold turkey what they are doing and talk with you about anything concerning Saltwater, leaving nothing to the wind. Talk about a candy store for saltwater addicts! Highly recommended store if you go to Southern California. I will most likely be going back in July and October and I can give you directions to the place if you would like them. I also picked up some extra business cards to hand out to other people who will be headed that way

[phlipper84]

Here you go again owsi. The average newbie is stunned enough at the price of this hobby. Anyone in the sub-100,000 dollar crowd will not do a double-take when you say a 100G reef tank is 5000 dollars. Not to mention that they will want the tank in-wall. That 5g gets you a minimum reef tank as anyone on reefcentral will tell you. My 240 just in equip probably comes close to 10K, not even counting mis-steps. Not to mention the costs of coral, live rock etc. You want the best of both worlds. You want the stores to take their time to show the latest greatest inventions like they are getting them for free. How much do they need to spend on equip. to show what can be done? The only store in town that has that degree of display tank and that is Majestic. However they have never offered to open any parts of the stand to show what is making that tank look so great. In fact, I am not really sure that they take care of it, since the rest of the store tends to look like a tsunami hit it, IMO. BTW, does anyone in Phoenix have anything major in display tanks? Last time I went up there, ATR was showing Coral life super skimmers and nothing else. Aquarium Arts does have a nice display tank, but they carry only ASM skimmers. I went up there when I was getting my tank ready, specifically to buy a skimmer. I wanted it right then and there. I ended up at Aquatouch, paid retail for an ASM G3. If I wanted an Aqua-C that was large enough for a 240, it was special order. No Euro-reef, no H&S, No precision Marine. I think the only location for a calcium reactor was Aquarium Arts and it was Tunze. Extremely nice but by the time you were done buying it you would be in for a fortune.
Hector carried Euro-Reef in a variety of models. He sold them all, that showed the market to be receptive for 4 skimmers. Then he ran into Euro-Reef customer service.
You say I should know what I talk about. I just came out of a business. To be successful we needed to turn our inventory every 2 months. If you carried 2 calcium reactors @ 300-600 each, in stock, you would then need to sell 12 reactors in 12 months to be on target. That means that 12 people in Tucson would have to purchase reactors from him and not go to the internet, not go to Reefcentral to buy it used or even go to another store, that may or may not have it in stock, or know what it takes to set it up. I had it set-up but did not get it to full efficiency for months. Did I call MRC for help every day? Or did I go to someone in town for advice, even though I did not spend dime one in the store for any of it.
Tucson may have been the first mail-order on-line biz. However does that mean they were shipping all product into Tucson or were they shipping nation-wide in an effort to sell enough items to make it profitable and not a hobby?

[owsi]

No we are not. I simply said it happened here once, you need the right person, vision and business plan and it will work. Everybody is thinking small, yes you have to start within your availible funds. But you have to go internet, thats the future. Marine Depot didn't just appear and be succussful, it had its ups and downs. You would have to be nuts to get a million dollar inventory with no cust. base, but you need to have the contacts. Roger and Bob started out of the same wharehouse that Southwest was at, they didn't carry everything but as an item proved itself they got it in or got a supplier who could. As you get volume, you also get success. But the fish business is very demanding, always changeing, and you know the problems with lovestock. This thread was not started to cut down exsisting LFS, but to get a location for a new one. I would just like to see someone who has vision, knowledge and a strong customer service background get one started. Tucson can support 3 or 4 good LFS, but they need to develope the market again. I think the fact that there are only 4 LFS in Phoenix worth talking about has more to do with personol then cust. base. ATR is what it is because of Scott, when Kingsley was at AA all the time it was great, other things took his time or burn-out and it went down, now it's coming back from what I read. This is a tough business, I hated to see Scotty sell, but was happy for him, he earned a rest. Thats all for me, think I've made my points.

[Fat Surgeon]

[i] This thread was not started to cut down exsisting LFS, but to get a location for a new one. [/B]

This thread had to go this way to show why another store should'nt be open at this time. If you have not been in business, you can never understand everything that is involved to make it successful. While it is good to get an opinion from other people where a store should be open, they will always want one closer to where they live, disregarding the fact that it may not even be sustainable, not to mention past history or even demographically sound.
A word to Zack. The East side is a bad choice. If Southwest plays their cards right, they will dominate that market. Why are you even thinking of those locations? Is it for SV people? Because you live on that side of town? Re-think your decision to do so. If this is Zack who owned Aquatic oasis(?) I would hate to see you loose another store. If you have your heart set on opening another one, choose wisely. NW side being the obvious choice. And dont do partners like the last one. I didnt even realize it was a partnership until 2-3 months after you closed it. I now know of three business people including myself on this thread that are more than willing to give you sound advice if needed. Good luck and keep the dream alive.

[Zach Franck]

Fat Surgeon, I think you have got a wrong opinion about why the store closed. There may have been a lot of rumors going around and all, but the choice to leave the store was mine. I sold out to my partner with the wish to take some time off and relax a bit. My only problem was that I was working too many hours. Pretty much once I left, my partner decided to close the store, because he wanted to concentrate on maintenance.
It just so happens that I am still on contact with many people with tanks. One of these people is speaking with me about possibly opening a store and he gave me these intersections in southeast tucson. I will probably give him a hand with the store, but there is no way that I am going to leave my well paying and stable job to run another store. I think people are getting the wrong idea about this.

[Fat Surgeon]

After reading the first post, my apologies Zach! I thought you were going to open another store yourself.

[owsi]

Sorry, I was hopeing too, but as with Scotty you are a wise man.

[SWSaltwater]

Zach, I won't leave my well paying and stable job to run a store either lol.

I think the Surgeon is correct another store in town would be a drain. I only hope whoever opens the store does the market research before investing money in it. When I open my next location it will likely be Saltwater, birds, and Reptiles. Seems reptiles are a lot more stable year round where saltwater is a very seasonal business. I need to find a way to make it odorless though, cause I hate the way some stores smell. Good thing I don't have to rely on the income from the shop yet and can reinvest any profits made without going homeless.

I am also working on the web site, and then I will align my prices with online markets, but gotta have the volume from the internet to cover overhead as Tucson still does not have the volume needed.

As far as carrying cutting edge technology, I am also working on it, but the problem is most the places that make or distribute the merchandise require large orders of thousands of dollars each and generally only wholesale a few bucks under what some major online sources sell at once you count shipping. Large web dealers that get large discounts from manufacturers really are making a lot of LFS vanish.

I plan to have the LED lights on my new show tank. PFO claims they are beating 250w MH lights in tests by well known hobbyist. PFO should have them out mid next month and I have one on order. It will require a walletectomy for me to get one though.

[kscrimshaw]

OK, I can't resist putting in my 2 cents, too! I don't know that it's really all that necessary to have an amazing in-house stock of dry goods. How many of you actually browse the LFS for dry goods as opposed to livestock? I admit that I don't, except for frozen food (and is that even a dry good?) and the occasional "oh, s**t, I really need ___" moment.

Yes, it would be great if we could see all the latest and greatest technology on display, but I don't expect or need that in our shops. And I think we can all agree that Tucson doesn't have the market to support a "saltwater superstore" where that would be possible. The LFS need to play to their strengths and advantages over the on-line stores. Of course they can't compete in price, because the volume isn't there. But there is just something about actually seeing that fish/coral/whatever in person that makes it a totally different buying experience.

I know some of you have your favorite on-line vendors and love the customer service you've received, but it's just not quite the same as taking your kid into the store to check out all the tanks, and chatting with the store owner about whatever. That's where the customer service comes in, not just with the owner, but also with knowledgeable and friendly employees. That is what brings me back to the same shops over and over again.

[owsi]

Sounds like your covering most of the bases Rob. No you can't get everything, but if its good, at least get a good/reliable vender that can get it here quick and dependable. Glad to see your not afraid of the internet, its the future and a good way to pump your volume till Tucson catches up. Yea I love Le Mars so called wholesale prices to retailers, you'ld be better off getting most items at Marine Depot and reselling them. Your comeing on your worst season now, July/ August for everything Reef.

[cerreta]

Very good points.

I personally like to shop and compare. And we all like sales. Hector used to offer specials, but I have not seen any from his store in a long time. I agree with Karen that the LFS should concentrate on offering the best livestock. But, I would like to see prices come down. Corals in this market cost $60-$150 on average. Corals in Phoenix cost $40 -$120 and from what I here, equal corals in CA cost $20-$100 with a much greater selection.

I would like to see our stores put prices on the tanks, be more consistant with pricing, offer regular sale events, and bring the price down to average $50 per coral.

I will put this on my list for Santa Cluas

[SWSaltwater]

Originally posted by cerreta
Very good points.

I personally like to shop and compare. And we all like sales. Hector used to offer specials, but I have not seen any from his store in a long time. I agree with Karen that the LFS should concentrate on offering the best livestock. But, I would like to see prices come down. Corals in this market cost $60-$150 on average. Corals in Phoenix cost $40 -$120 and from what I here, equal corals in CA cost $20-$100 with a much greater selection.

I would like to see our stores put prices on the tanks, be more consistant with pricing, offer regular sale events, and bring the price down to average $50 per coral.

I will put this on my list for Santa Cluas

Probably not going to happen unless we get more hobbyist. Corals in Ca cost less because they don't have to ship them. Most just drive to LA (like me) to pick them up. Only my trip cost over 300 with the price of gas, food, and hotels(usually bring back 20 or so boxes from LA so I can save some money). To ship it cost me about 100 for 4 boxes So that typically adds about 4-5 bucks per item depending on size. Rock is a whole other story to ship cause it almost doubles the price. Phoenix lowers prices just by sheer volume. If I had the traffic of their stores the prices would match.

What's funny is most people love the prices in California and Phoenix but fail to figure in gas, hotel, time, shipping, etc in the cost. Unless you are buying volume, or already their for a visit, its useless to make the trip. Besides any LFS would give awesome prices for volume orders or group orders. If you can save someone a long drive and make a few bucks why not. Any reasonable businessman will match and beat any price in town or phoenix for comparable stock but I find most people won't drop in to ask, they just order online.
Rob

[phlipper84]

well put.

[fishaholic911]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by cerreta
[B] And we all like sales. Hector used to offer specials, but I have not seen any from his store in a long time.
I been going into southwest salt they have a 25 percent off sale going on for the last month

[phlipper84]

Great, let's turn this thread into a bash fest. If you like one store better than another, then recommend that store. It doesn't seem very fair to just flame someone because they are not running their business to your liking. Better to say nothing and let each person make their decisions on their own.

[owsi]

Your were right phlipper84, I'm sorry here we go again! Great, let's turn this thread into a bash fest, who's bashing? Why so quick to protect good ol hector (first time I mentioned him in a long time). Scott just mentioned he had not seen a sale in a while and fishaholic911 mentioned South west had a 25% sale. That's Bashing? Is there a special relationship we're missing here?

[fishaholic911]

Phlipper I was not trying to bash any Lfs. I am sorry if that came out wrong. I was just trying to make a point about the comment made ( We all like sales ) I was not trying to focus on any store just that there is one in town that is having a sale.

[fishaholic911]

You can trust that I will be the last person to bash anyone or any LFS on RC