Starboard Reef is up and running

[Kpyto]

Bomber, thanks for replying to my questions... A couple more...

If I wanted to set my 90 up doing a SB bottom, but also wanted to do soft corals, what are the drawbacks to a reduction of flow in this type of system?
Would a good maintenance plan (siphoning of waste material in a weekly 10 % water change) allow for the reduced flow?
What would be an allowable flow range for a 90?

Thanks for taking the time to answer my questions. I am forever in a learning process in this hobby... but it's all part of the fun.

Chris

[Bomber]

Originally posted by Kpyto
If I wanted to set my 90 up doing a SB bottom, but also wanted to do soft corals, what are the drawbacks to a reduction of flow in this type of system?

You know something? I read SB and think sand bed!! I just typed out a whole thing about using a sand bed and realized you're talking about Starboard! ROTFL

That's a berlin system and was the saving grace for people that wanted to keep soft corals years ago.

Just tweak your skimmer and feeding regime to suit what looks right for your particular tank.

Originally posted by Kpyto
Would a good maintenance plan (siphoning of waste material in a weekly 10 % water change) allow for the reduced flow?

Sure will. Mainly you would be eliminating the demand placed on the system by having a sand bed.
Here's my easy way to siphon. I get polyester quilting batting at Wall Mart. Stuff it in a Rubbermaid pitcher with a lot of holes in the bottom and put it in the sump. When I siphon out detritus I let the siphon drain into the pitcher.

Originally posted by Kpyto
What would be an allowable flow range for a 90?

About this much.

Make it look good to you. As you run the tank for a while you'll play around with it, I guarantee that. LOL

Originally posted by Kpyto
Thanks for taking the time to answer my questions. I am forever in a learning process in this hobby... but it's all part of the fun.

Chris

You're welcome.

You're in good company BTW.

[Kpyto]

Bomber... sorry for all of the questions, but I find your knowledge to be very helpful. On that note...

I have a 90 with a 4" CC bed. I'm getting a cyano bloom that is bringing me to wits end. Partly due to using tap for my water changes and top offs (I'll be getting an RO/DI unit in the next couple of days), I am considering removing the CC bed and going to a bare or Starboard bottom. A couple of questions:

Can I remove the CC bed without there being a spike, or should I expect a cycle?

Considering I have fully cured (and cyano covered) LR, once the required amount of water is made for the tank, can I do a 100% water change in order to rid my tank of the "bad" water?

I started reading (and am in the process of reading) the thread in which you stated that you were changing your current tank from a DSB to a 1" sand bottom... obviously you changed, but what were your reasons - other than the amount of current you have now.

Thanks again for your time and replies.

[Bomber]

Originally posted by Kpyto
Can I remove the CC bed without there being a spike, or should I expect a cycle?

What's your gut feeling and instincts telling you on this one? It's going to depend on how much detritus you have, how many things are in the system, how good a skimmer you have, what mood you're rocks are in - things like that.
It's really hard to say.

Originally posted by Kpyto
Considering I have fully cured (and cyano covered) LR, once the required amount of water is made for the tank, can I do a 100% water change in order to rid my tank of the "bad" water?

I know I can do that, but I honestly don't know if someone else can. To be on the safe side, most people do a series of smaller water changes. It takes more new water to do that, but it's also more forgiving.
A 100% water change will get you head of the game, but you'll still have a leaking from your rocks. A good skimmer will take care of that.

Originally posted by Kpyto
I started reading (and am in the process of reading) the thread in which you stated that you were changing your current tank from a DSB to a 1" sand bottom... obviously you changed, but what were your reasons - other than the amount of current you have now.

A slow progressive build up of algae, cyano, and things that just wouldn't go away no matter what I did. Slower coral growth. Build up of detritus and phosphorous compounds that were poisoning the system. Classic case of DSB crash.

I know what cyano and algae problems mean in closed systems and it's not good. Not being able to clean the sand bed effectively was the final straw.

[Kpyto]

Good Morning Bomber.

Somewhere in the mega thread around page 48 or so, you mentioned that you grab your coffee and look to that thread for new posts... I am now doing the same, but I'm still trying to get to the end. It's a great thread, and has made me think quite a bit about my current situation - as have your answers to my questions on this thread. Again thanks.

I ordered the RO/DI unit yesterday. I can't wait for it to get here. I can only assume that my use of tap water, coupled with my deep CC bed (probably laden with crud by now) is causing my cyano problem... it's really bad. The tank is ugly. I'll be purchasing 33 gallon rubbermaid to start mixing new water in as soon as the RO/DI unit comes.

My plan is to do at least a 50%, or perhaps more water change along with the removal of the CC bed. The two soft corals that I had have been moved to my girlfriends 10 gallon, and are already looking better. She uses bottled water, so I can already see the change in them... for the much better.

Do you advocate scrubbing the rock to remove the cyano? I would love to cook it, but I'd be taking out more than half the rock which is affected (I have about 105 lbs total), and I'm not sure if it'd be a good idea to remove it all. Your thoughts? Another thought... if I put all the rock in the tank, and there are no nasties (read as the crud in my CC), would the cyano die off for lack of nutrients that it needs to survive?

Thank you again!

[jcigars]

I received my Black starboard/cutting boards yesterday man they look great. Just waiting now on my Lifereef setup to come in. I can't wait to get this setup up and running.

[Bomber]

I would scrub and rinse the rocks out as best I could. When I took the old rocks out of my tank (DSB to no DSB), I used the old tank water to dunk, swish, drain, dunk, swish, shake, plunge, shake, drain - get it? LOL and clean them of detritus as best I could.
I then put them in tubs with clean water and a pump. As the detritus accumulated in the tubs, I would dunk, swish, dunk and move them to clean tubs and water again. Bacterial pressures will force detritus out of rocks and clean them.
They are now covered in coralline, no signs of hair algae, and ready to go again.

What I would do in your situation is scrub and clean them as best you can. Set them back in the tank with new water and go barebottom for a while. Siphon and skim detritus out and keep them dark. When you see very little detritus being produced, almost none, you're ready to go again. That might take a good month or more. If you turn the lights on and start to see cyano and/or hair algae. Start over. Don't rush it.

I received my Black starboard/cutting boards yesterday man they look great. Just waiting now on my Lifereef setup to come in. I can't wait to get this setup up and running.

Me too! After seeing some tanks with the black, I'm falling in extreme like with it.

[Chondro]

Bomber,
How many pounds of rock do you have in your tank?
I ask because it doesn't look like very much.

By the way, I LOVE your tank.

[Bomber]

Chondro

Thank you

I have no idea how much, I really don't. If you know what a 70gal Rubbermaid trough looks like, it was about 1/2 full.

It's not much. I don't rely on rocks or sand to do my filtering on this tank. I'm using a Bullet3 skimmer on a Iwaki70 (sometimes Iwaki100). I'm taking it out before it breaks down.

[nanorfj]

Another reef with black starboard...way cool

Originally posted by jcigars
I received my Black starboard/cutting boards yesterday man they look great. Just waiting now on my Lifereef setup to come in. I can't wait to get this setup up and running.

[InsaneClownFish]

Bomber, did you ever know that you're my hero....?

Before I had even read this post, I was planning on building my sump out of white starboard.

Now, I am definitely considering, and almost positive, I will be using black starboard for the bottom of my future 175. I work for a marine company, and we sell starboard in white, seafoam, and black. I can get a sheet as large as 96"x54"x1/2" or 3/4" and then cut it- perfect for my application. I am curious, did you guys use the 1/2 inch or 3/4 inch?

Ok Bomber, I have a little confession to make. You see I'm new here. I'm soaking up as much knowledge as I can before I even attempt a reef. You can kinda say I'm acting like a huge virtual mental DSB. Hopefully nitrogen gas won't start leaking out of my ears... I have to admit, I didn't like the pics of your tank at ALL with the starboard when I first viewed them a couple weeks ago- too sterile. Now, I absolutely love it. It's grown on me. You see, I never thought of the 'potential' of your tank. I'm starting to understand that the whole point of reefkeeping is to 'watch' things grow. The idea of having a tank with a floor covered in coralline and softies is SO appealing. The pics of nanorfj's tank, with the black starboard, have completely turned me around. Starboard is a nice material, because it should resist algae buildup- it is designed to be stain and stick repellant- however, now that I see how easily coralline will grow on it...I am thrilled...

I can also scratch the 'dark blue' back of the tank in favor of a 'black' backed tank.

Bomber, I have the luxury of not having to set up my tank for another 6 months to a year- I'll be moving in 6 months, so there is no need to set up a 175 now... I've been reading many of the DSB discussions of late, at my late nights at work, and I had begun to start leaning towards doing a tank with just a thin layer of sand. However, after reading this thread, and really thinking about it- hearing how some of the European reefs- the older, most mature reefs, go strictly Berlin, I am sold.

I think of it this way, with the money I save on the almost 500lbs pounds of sand I would need for my display, refugium, and quarantine tank, I can afford one hell of a skimmer... I really had initially wanted black sand, however, after being advised against it, and actually doing a search and viewing it in some tanks, it really does look like a dirty ashtray. The black starboard in nanorfj's tank blows black sand away. I had also read up on the benefits and drawbacks of aragonite- including the expense- seems to me like a 'bandaid'- notice the choice of the word 'bandaid.' Then I heard some sandstorm horror stories with southdown- not for me.

So here's the way I see it. I'm going to put my black starboard in the bottom. I'll cover it with coralline, softies, and mushrooms. Then I'll enjoy watching it grow. I'll modify my sump design slightly by adding a little extra room in the initial compartment for a larger skimmer. I'll add two carbon socks to the intake lines. The middle chamber will be a pseudo refugium with just live rock, and maybe some macroalgaes, but no sand...did someone say "bandaid?" Instead of using two return pumps for flow, like I had originally wanted, I'll just go with the submersible Eheim 900gph. I originally didn't want anything unsightly in the tank, but it looks like the definitive choice, at least for me, with this type of setup, would be two nice Tunze streams. They don't look that bad, and with no sand to blow around, it's almost a no brainer. The flow benefits far outweigh the drawbacks.

So how am I doing? Do I have all my ducks in a row? Am I getting this right- this pure Berlin? Of course I will be extra conscious of my fish choices, water change schedule, and detritus vacuuming.

Oh and for those of you who don't know, I think the only difference with white and black starboard is that the white will reflect the heat- and the black will absorb the heat slightly. Someone had mentioned this when I was contemplating going with black sand. However, the absorption effects should be much less than sand with starboard- plus even the black starboard should reflect a little- just look at the surface of it, feel it, then picture it on a boat's deck...

Alright, now with all this said, and a well deserved 'bump' as I tag along on this thread, I do have a couple of questions.

Ready?

I plan on getting an acrylic tank. Am I in for some heartache because by using the starboard, and no sand, the coralline will have more of a tendency to grow up the front of the tank requiring more scraping?

Bomber, nanorfj are either of your tanks acrylic? Thoughts?

My only other concern is that I wanted to have a midas blenny, a couple of nice lil gobies, and some sand sifting stars, hermit grabs, snails, nudi's, a black leopard wrasse- which likes to bury himself in the sand- will I have trouble keeping any of these creatures WITHOUT a sand bed? Would some or all of these creatures adapt to the live rock, softies, and other corals instead? Might it make them more prone to munch on corals? Could I still have clams? Some of the people I've talked to on here who are still adamant about having a DSB champion them because in their opinions, that is where all the "action" is. Any thoughts?

My final thought, for those of you who don't like the starboard look, is have you ever considered getting the starboard fit to your tank, then before placing it inside, super gluing a thin layer of sand to it? I don't know how this would look, but considering super gluing corals to live rock is considered safe, it might be a viable option.

Thanks to all who have stuck around to read my long winded post...

[nanorfj]

Originally posted by InsaneClownFish
Bomber, did you ever know that you're my hero....?

He's a hero of mine, too.

I am curious, did you guys use the 1/2 inch or 3/4 inch?

1/2 inch

The middle chamber will be a pseudo refugium with just live rock, and maybe some macroalgaes, but no sand

This is what I did with the middle of my sump...a nice clump of several kinds of macro. Just did this yesterday so it will be interesting to see the results. I've had a little brown algae growth, nothing major; we'll see if the macro in the sump absorbs the nutrients. The only question is now much macro is needed for this 75; I'm not sure I have enough in there (don't have much room left in the sump though.)

it looks like the definitive choice, at least for me, with this type of setup, would be two nice Tunze streams.

Sounds good; they are too much for my 75 (I tried a 6060) but should work in a 175 np.

I plan on getting an acrylic tank. Am I in for some heartache because by using the starboard, and no sand, the coralline will have more of a tendency to grow up the front of the tank requiring more scraping?

Too early to tell on my tank. There are only a couple small spots on the glass, but a lot on the starboard. I assume it will grow on the glass eventually.

Bomber, nanorfj are either of your tanks acrylic? Thoughts?

My 75 isn't, my 18 nano is, and it has lots of coralline on it. Seems to grow quite a bit easier on acrylic than glass, and easier still on starboard.

My only other concern is that I wanted to have a midas blenny, a couple of nice lil gobies, and some sand sifting stars, hermit grabs, snails, nudi's, a black leopard wrasse- which likes to bury himself in the sand- will I have trouble keeping any of these creatures WITHOUT a sand bed? Would some or all of these creatures adapt to the live rock, softies, and other corals instead? Might it make them more prone to munch on corals? Could I still have clams? Some of the people I've talked to on here who are still adamant about having a DSB champion them because in their opinions, that is where all the "action" is. Any thoughts?

I have one serpent star, several hermits, and several snails. Can't offer much help on the rest...

have you ever considered getting the starboard fit to your tank, then before placing it inside, super gluing a thin layer of sand to it?

No...I would think it would just end up collecting detritus when the main reason I went with starboard was to (a) offer a cushion for the LR (b) not have a see-through tank bottom and (c) allow easy detritus removal.

Good luck!

[in2deep]

Boomer, do you think that over time detritus and nasties will collect UNDER the Starboard and will be hard to remove or did you seal around the edges of the Starboard with calk? I just pulled a piece of Starboard off my boat and it is slippery stuff- even the 5200 would not really adhere to it and it's amazing to see the corralines attatching to it so fast. And since the stuff is so slippery did you have any problem keeping the rocks in place? Thanks- this is an unbelievable concept.

[InsaneClownFish]

nanorfj,

Cool, thanks for taking the time to answer all of my questions. get more pics of your tank up here!

[InsaneClownFish]

Sorry for the double post, but I forgot to ask you if you find it a problem getting the coralline off of the acrylic... scratches? :$

[nanorfj]

It takes some effort, I use a special algae removal pad for acrylic...I much prefer a glass tank...much easier.

[InsaneClownFish]

nanorfj, in a mixed reef tank, softies, sps, some lps, do you think pusing 3750 gph would be too much flow? LOL fishies slammed up against the glass? lol I have read most people take the more flow the better approach, thoughts?

3750 comes from using an eheim 900ph pump probably returning 500-550 and a tunze stream at each end of a 6 ft tank doing 1600 a piece.

I could easily go with a 2250 Tunze and push around 2750-2800g ph.

You know another plus of not doing sand in such a large tank, especially where I would need at least 400lbs. for just the 175, is the weight. I will be moving into a condo, and I have already been mindful of having to find a place with a floor that would support such a tank. I was on the brink of thinking I might have to settle for a 135 if it came down to it...no more..

Anyone seen the movie whats eating gilbert grape? Came to mind a few times...

Bomber, I dont know if I mentioned this yet, but its been interesting following your toughts as you went from sticking by your DSB to your newfound tank dimensions. Very helpful for us newbies. Thanks!

[Bomber]

Can we make that "Super Hero"? -----BLUSH------

ISF,

I used 1/4", that's plenty thick and lighter. I does float a little though.

would be two nice Tunze streams. They don't look that bad, and with no sand to blow around, it's almost a no brainer. The flow benefits far outweigh the drawbacks.

That was the biggest problem that people had back in the berlin days. They didn't understand the importance of flow and they didn't have good skimmers available to them. They didn't really have the equipment to get there either.

Bomber, nanorfj are either of your tanks acrylic? Thoughts?

Mine's glass. Even with that, I have one stupid scratch - of course right in the middle at eye level.

will I have trouble keeping any of these creatures WITHOUT a sand bed?

I have all the snails, hermits, cukes, the usual sand critters. I don't keep wrasses because I have lots of shrimp and wrasses tend to be jumpers too.

super gluing a thin layer of sand to it?

I'm lazy.

You just made me think of something that deserves a new post. and I need coffee!!! LOL

[Bomber]

Originally posted by in2deep
Boomer, do you think that over time detritus and nasties will collect UNDER the Starboard and will be hard to remove or did you seal around the edges of the Starboard with calk? I just pulled a piece of Starboard off my boat and it is slippery stuff- even the 5200 would not really adhere to it and it's amazing to see the corralines attatching to it so fast. And since the stuff is so slippery did you have any problem keeping the rocks in place? Thanks- this is an unbelievable concept.

What's the stuff you have to use to glue Starboard? It's a solvent. I know 5200 won't stick, can you believe that??

I just stacked the rocks so they are stable and off the bottom as much as I could.

[Bomber]

Bomber, I dont know if I mentioned this yet, but its been interesting following your toughts as you went from sticking by your DSB to your newfound tank dimensions. Very helpful for us newbies. Thanks!

Thank you too!

Here's a potential problem that we're all going to see. Especially from people converting to Berlin from DSB.

Unless they realize that they are going to have to upgrade their equipment - bigger pumps and skimmers - they're not going to be completely happy with Berlin either.

[cvye]

Originally posted by Bomber
I'm using a Bullet3 skimmer on a Iwaki70 (sometimes Iwaki100).

Please report on the differences you notice when driving the Bullet 3 with these two different pumps. Are we NOT talking diminishing returns for a single Beckett? Thanks!

[gregt]

The beckett can handle an Iwaki 100 and more. The beckett isn't the bottleneck, the pump is.

[ldrhawke]

Damn You Bomber...............

I just logged on to this thread and have been reading for a half hour. It all makes too much sense. Why fight a phosphate sponge with all your creative juices and attempt a daily balancing act, to try and keep it functioning; when a bare bottom, high flow rates, and good skimmer solves the problem.

I hate it when somebody takes something I have made so complex and makes it simple.

Now I am going to be spending the next two weeks trying to figure out how to tear down my newly cycled tank, without loosing all the coral and fish, and go bare bottom.


PS Beautiful tank...love the simplity.

[nanorfj]

There will be no damning of Bomber on this board. Only blessings.

I got lucky cuz I saw the initial starboard post right when I was in the planning stages.

I still have some tweaking to do, I'd like to first get a bigger skimmer, assuming it will fit under the stand (I think there might be all of 1/2" clearance with a 24" EuroReef.) Circulation in my 75 seems ok so far, with weekly siphoning; I have the powerheads directed so most detritus collects in one area.

[Kpyto]

Idrhawke,

I am doing the same for my Deep Crushed Coral Bed and have started a thread regarding the conversion process. Seeing as you are converting a DSB, perhaps you could add comment to my thread so others can start to see a process of how to go about it if they are going to make the switch. Here is the link...

Conversion to BB discussion