A warning about toxicity. A MUST read.

[Fmellish]

My friend got very ill after zoanthid mucus, (from a tear in the zoanthid), got into a cut on his hand.

His arm went numb, he had ringing in his ears. If you can any open flesh in the water I'd wear gloves.

Josh

[hllywd]

Is there some way your friend knows without a doubt it wasn't something else that caused the symtoms? Was the reaction instantaneous so there was no doubt? Was this a test to investigate toxicity, i.e. open cut and rub a torn zoanthid into it?
What were the circumstances?

I'm really trying to understand, hundreds of people here with experience and yet all the warning stories are he said, she said types of information. Many, even in this thread claim to have had "frag juice" all over their hands with no ill effects at all, I have in fact.

Personally I believe these claims need evidence to back them up to be credible.

Again I have no doubts there may be toxic zoanthids, nearly everything here has an urban legend quality though.

Sorry, still my opinion.

Tim

[reefer5060]

today i had a loose zoa polyp come into direct contact with a cut on my finger ( the cut was open) and i am feeling no effects .

[jessiesgrrl]

As far as credible, I would suggest checking out the info Bob Fenner has on zoanthid care and toxicity on Wet Web Media. That should get rid of the urban legend quality...

Neurotoxins are serious stuff and occur naturally many places in nature, as well as your home. For example, botulinum toxin (botulism) is an anerobic bacterium that can occur quite naturally inyour kitchen cabinet that has any can containing a protein. The can bulges from the bacterial growth, the bacteria produce the toxin as a waste product of consuming the protein and there you go. As for the power of it, well, all those women in California, etc getting rid of wrinkles with Botox are using a neurotoxin directly injected to paralyze facial muscles. FYI, your local emergency department only carries the most common antivenoms. They would not have near the space to carry them all, or the money to keep them on hand as they expire.

I would be careful with all of them as a precaution (Especially Palythoa) - and double check me with Mr. Fenner.

Have a great day
Laurie

[NanoCube-boy]

I knew the zoanthids are toxic, how do you guys frag it? What coloris there toxic?

[hllywd]

Originally posted by jessiesgrrl
As far as credible, I would suggest checking out the info Bob Fenner has on zoanthid care and toxicity on Wet Web Media. That should get rid of the urban legend quality...

Neurotoxins are serious stuff and occur naturally many places in nature, as well as your home. For example, botulinum toxin (botulism) is an anerobic bacterium that can occur quite naturally inyour kitchen cabinet that has any can containing a protein. The can bulges from the bacterial growth, the bacteria produce the toxin as a waste product of consuming the protein and there you go. As for the power of it, well, all those women in California, etc getting rid of wrinkles with Botox are using a neurotoxin directly injected to paralyze facial muscles. FYI, your local emergency department only carries the most common antivenoms. They would not have near the space to carry them all, or the money to keep them on hand as they expire.

I would be careful with all of them as a precaution (Especially Palythoa) - and double check me with Mr. Fenner.

Have a great day
Laurie

"Mr Fenner's" web site isn't real easy to look up exactly what you're intending to find, however I did find the Hawaiian tide pool disertation again there on how palytoxin was supposedly discovered. I've never said I doubted the existance of the toxin, only the posts here that make the claims of the fiddler's dog eating a rock with some zoanthids attached and keeling over.

Again I question, does it take one polyp or 29 acres of polyps concentrated to make enough toxin to be bothersome? If it were 1 polyp the things would have been outlawed from sale a long time ago because of high numbers of dead LFS kids.

I realize many toxins such as botulinum occur naturally and even in the home from immproperly preserved foods... What I don't understand is what "California women" injecting it in their faces has to do with the subject at hand... If we want to go there what the heck does California have to do with it? It's advertised locally here in NW Ohio. I'd rather see less wrinkles in older ladies than more of the freakshow piercings and hardware people are putting in their faces (and other body locations for that matter)...

Back on topic, there may be some factual info in this thread, I believe the "urban legend" quality I've addressed is from hearsay and exagerated stories from well meaning individuals hoping to avert disaster based on unsubstantiated information.

Tim

[azrien]

I just handled a tiny (1" x 1/2") colony of zoas, my very first, bare-handed. No cuts on the hand but no protective gear either. I did wash my hands afterwards and it is only an hour or two after the handling so I'm not feeling anything yet. I think I will order gloves, however. I don't think I've heard of the zoa toxicity up until now. Thanks again for the heads up.

I'm a bit worried now..

[OrionN]

this is a useful blast from the past.

[Dewey115]

I dont think the point of this topic is to spread fear but more of a caution that there is a CHANCE that something bad could happen. Has anyone at all seen ANY study of any kind or even a decent experiment done that shows that zoos cause absolutely no health risks? What about even a poor experiment? Just because you dont see something doesn't means it isn't there. Thats called ignorance and many many people have died from ignorance.

It is not hard to prove that SOME do contain toxins and while I am not trying to imply we are all in danger, I think it is completely irresponsible for people not to voice a word of caution about them. I cant think of anything more stupid than taking a risk that could kill you or someone you love, when all it takes to prevent is a little caution and some gloves... are you guys that cheap? Hell I bet there are people that will buy you gloves if you cant afford them (in which case you are definately in the wrong hobby anyway). Thats like saying you wont use a condom during random sex because you never got AIDS before and that you dont think this person has it.

And for the "LFS couldn't sell it if it is dangerous" argument. There are many fish that are toxic that are quite easy to buy... puffers are well known to be deadly if you eat the wrong part of them, but you could also die if you cut up the puffer in the tank then bit your fingernails. Lionfish are toxic and while they dont kill you, dont you think someone out there would have sued if they could? Yet it has never happened because there is no way to connect the LFS to the incident. If you are careless then why would a pet store be at fault? Answer: They aren't as long as they didn't lie to you about it and pass it off as safe. What about suing walmart because someone bought a knife from there that they used to kill your relative? That is not the way it works, please dont try to downplay something that CAN KILL YOU just because you want to live in ignorance or play devils advocate... especially when you dont have even close to all the facts. And actually there isn't a person alive that has all the facts about this. Marine fish and animals in general are some of the least understood creatures on earth... but I dont see how lack of information equals "safe". This has the potential to be a very bad thing and people are only trying to get the word out so that others can be informed and stay safe... and they are getting jumped on because some people dont want to believe or they never got sick... does this seem ludicrous to anyone else besides me?

Sorry for the nature of this post, but if there is even a tiny chance of me dying or even getting sick from them than I want to know about it and others have the right to know as well. Unless you have some facts or at least some LOGIC please dont post saying that they are all safe and its just made up. I would rather be alive, 5 minutes slower working on my tank, and $12 poorer than dead with an extra $12 in my pocket... seems pretty simple to me :-/

[Dewey115]

As to specifics on what is or is not safe, the only answer is that nobody really knows. Not because it is a huge mystery we cant solve but more that there are just so many things in the ocean we dont understand, this is just one of the countless things we dont know yet. Color is probably not an accurate way to even guess how safe or not a polyp could be. Zoanthids can change and morph colors quite rapidly and what was red last month could be orange or yellow in a few more. Color is more a result of the algae inside of them than what species they are. I have had some colonies change colors quite drastically and even gain markings that they didn't have previously. Color in zoanthis is never a scientific way to identify them. I also am not aware of anyone that has learned how the toxin is produced. It may be something that happens only in nature (and so maybe only very newly imported ones could have it) or maybe only from certain regions of the world or maybe... or maybe... who knows, but thats kind of the point. We know too little at this point to be able to say ANYTHING with much accuracy. Its better to be cautious when you dont know much about an animal that can kill you.

It is likely however that the toxin is there to prevent things from eating the colonies, so probably just touching the zoos wouldn't be a risk. More likely is that eating or injuring the polyp to release the toxin (and then getting the toxin into your body) is the primary (maybe only) way to put yourself at any real risk.

[Don Lino]

I wanted to know if this is what the toxins look like when they are being released from the Zoas?? I noticed this today from a shipment I received. This happened right after I placed it into the tank.

[hllywd]

Don Lino,

Nobody here has a clue which zoas may carry palytoxin, what color(s) or other features they may have, if they are available to the aquarium trade or anything else factual for that matter.

Yours look stressed from shipping, maybe it is the toxin, more likely it something else from the stress I would say.

Be a skeptic and don't believe everything you read on the internet.

Tim

[hllywd]

BTW... Did you touch them when you were putting them in the tank?

[Don Lino]

Thanks so much hllywd, this made me very alert and skeptical of even keeping them. I did touch them when placing them in the tank and after they let the fumes out...I dont have any open cuts or anything though, and I eally dont feel any different. Thanks

[NanoCube-boy]

I highly recommend you to use gloves when handle these, even if you don't have cuts. Might want to wear something that cover your face as well to protect you mouth, eyes and nose. These guys are extremely toxin and you shouldn't take at risk.

[DgenR8]

Originally posted by hllywd
Don Lino,

Nobody here has a clue which zoas may carry palytoxin, what color(s) or other features they may have, if they are available to the aquarium trade or anything else factual for that matter.

Yours look stressed from shipping, maybe it is the toxin, more likely it something else from the stress I would say.

Be a skeptic and don't believe everything you read on the internet.

Tim

I completely agree that there is plenty of faulty information on the Internet, and we should all be aware of that fact. However, there are some very bright people in this community, and to say that "Nobody here has a clue" is a bit much, IMO.
There is much more to learn about all marine animals, not just Zoanthids, but it is a fact that toxins exist in many, probably most hobbyists tanks. Chances are, that we have yet to identify a good number of them, or their sources. Wearing gloves is never a bad idea if you're sticking your hand in your tank. It not only protects you from your tank, it protects your tank from anything you might have on your hand/arm.

[NanoCube-boy]

Yup... I agree. People usually have lotion applied on their hands and harm corals. Sometime people hands are not always clean to coral as it is clean to themselves. So wear gloves, protect them as you protect yourself... Slap some rubber on... hehe

[jessiesgrrl]

From www.WetWebMedia.com, about halfway down this page it starts http://www.wetwebmedia.com/zoanthid1.htm :

Zoanthids?
Hi guys,
I have a quick identification question. We went and bought some polyps this weekend that look like giant button polyp zoanthids that are a brown and white marble sort of color. They are very large and we were told at the LFS that we bought them at that they are called cinnamon polyps.
, you often hear that one should wear gloves in the aquarium to protect your corals from contamination on your hands and to protect your of course from these stinging animals. This is a good reason. Just do not handle them with cuts on your hands or propagate them without wearing gloves . The worst that you are likely to encounter is a metallic taste in the mouth if you work in the tank without gloves. The creature is also known as the Giant Sun Polyp, Protopalythoa grandis. A beautiful creature that also occurs marbled with pink and green! as well as with radiating red and white stripes.>
We have not been able to find anything on Wet Web that looks like them or on the rest of the internet, probably because we have the wrong name for them. If you could please maybe give me an idea of what these giant polyps are.
. Always use the name (Proto)palythoa grandis or P. toxica (Pacific)>
Thanks for any info. you can give. Marci = )

The Fantastic Story of the Modern Discovery of Palytoxin
This article was written by Professor Bob Williams of Colorado State University, for his publication: The Nerd Street Journal.
Palytoxin was discovered by Professor Paul J. Scheuer at the University of Hawaii. The story of how this toxin, and its producing organism was found is quite interesting. Prof. Scheuer has made a hobby of reading ancient Hawaiian folklore through various library collections on the islands. He came across a reference to Limu make o Hana (deadly seaweed of Hana) in his readings. This is the Hawaiian phrase for a toxic organism which Malo (Hawaiian Antiquities, 1951) described as follows: "In Muolea, in the district of Hana (Maui), grew a poisonous moss in a certain pool or pond close to the ocean. It was used to smear on the spear points to make them fatal.....The moss is said to be of a reddish color and it is still to be found. It grows nowhere else than at that one spot." According to Hawaiian legend (manuscript notes by Katherine Livermore on file at B. P. Bishop Museum, Honolulu), there lived in the Hana district a man who always seemed to be busy planting and harvesting. Whenever the people in the neighborhood went fishing, upon their return, one of the group was missing. This went on for some time without the people having any explanation about the disappearances. At last the fishermen became suspicious of the man who tended his taro patch. They grabbed him, tore off his clothes and discovered on his back the mouth of a shark. They killed and burned him and threw the ashes into the sea. At the spot where this happened, so goes the legend, the limu (moss) became toxic. The tidepool containing the poisonous limu subsequently became kapu (taboo) to the Hawaiians. They would cover the limu with stones and were very secretive about its location. They firmly believed that disaster would strike if anyone were to attempt to gather the toxic limu (later named Palythoa).
Prof. Scheuer collaborated with Professors A.H. Banner and P. Helfrich of the Hawaii Institute of Marine Biology, and through a very elaborate chain of local Hawaiian informers and several cases of beer to loosen (frightened) lips, the location of the fabled tidepool was reluctantly disclosed. The tidepool was located at the end of a lava flow at Muolea (Kanewai), south of Hana, Maui. Divers collected a small sample of the toxic limu on December 31st, 1961. During the collection, local residents reminded the collection team of the kapu and the high probability of impending misfortune. Coincidentally, that same afternoon, a fire of unknown origin destroyed the main building of the Hawaii Marine Laboratory at Coconut Island, Oahu (the Institution of Drs Banner and Helfrich). Scuba divers have subsequently combed the surrounding ocean front near the tidal pool and did not find the Palythoa growing anywhere else except in the original location pointed out by local residents. The tide pool turned out to be just six feet long, two feet wide, and 20 inches deep at low tide. The crude ethanol extracts of the Palythoa toxica proved to be so toxic that an accurate LD50 was difficult to determine. More recently, the toxicity has been determined to be 50-100ng/kg i.p. in mice. The compound is an intense vasoconstrictor; in dogs, it causes death within 5 min at .06ug/kg. By extrapolation, a toxic dose in a human (obviously not determined) would be about 4 micrograms!!!. It is the most toxic organic substance known.
Following the isolation of the crude toxin by Scheuer (reported in Science (1971) 172, p.495), it was nearly 11 years before the correct structure was unraveled. two research groups, one at the University of Hawaii (led by Prof. Richard Moore, a student of Scheuer's) and one at Nagoya University (led by Prof. Hirata) put together the correct chemical structure in late 1981. Following that, Prof. Yo****o Kishi at Harvard University decided to try the complete chemical synthesis of the Palytoxin molecule. This monumental task was completed in 1989.
The Palytoxin molecule has the longest contiguous chain of carbon atoms known to exist in a natural product(115).The molecule has the formula C129H223N3O54 and contains 64 stereogenic centers. Adding this with the double bonds that can exhibit cis/trans isomerism means that Palytoxin can have more than one sextillion(1021) stereoisomers! This staggering molecular complexity should indicate the difficult nature of designing a stereocontrolled synthetic strategy that will produce just the one correct (natural) stereocenter out of >1021 possible stereoisomers (Kishi did).
The Palythoa toxica species has more recently been found near Tahiti, but produces a slightly different compound. The Tahitian organism is not widely dispersed in the coral reefs off Tahiti, but does not appear to be as localized as it is on Maui (a single tidal pool).

[jessiesgrrl]

Here is a link to the University of Hawaii's research findings:

http://www2.hawaii.edu/~bemorton/Neu...Palytoxin.html

When I was in the Air Force, and we taught airmen when/how to put their masks on when exposure was suspected- somebody was supposed to yell GAS GAS GAS and they were then all supposed to follow precautions immediately (gear). IMO, this is the same. You have people letting you know you may be dealing with a neurotoxin in your tank given a specific species (GAS GAS GAS!), so wear gloves... (mask up). I wouldn't have advised airmen to trying to decide for themselves when to take the mask off- and in the same vein I won't advise trying to decide which zoas/palys to wear gloves with... ie, is this the strain of zoanthid I have to wear them with?

As long as you wear gloves when propagating or when you have cuts, you should be fine. In the right amount, yes this is a neurotoxin and can be fatal to humans. However, I have never heard of any human being so odd as to eat one and get a fatal vegetative dose of it. Usually, it is just a small exposure into a cut or wiping a rag, etc across mucous membranes which allows for quick and targeted uptake. I feel sorry for the poor pooch- it is in my mind completely possible. His vegetative dose would likely be different from ours because of the size of his body (much smaller than ours), and his oral fixation (Licking repeatedly/eating coral flesh/drinking contaminated water)...


Laurie

[jessiesgrrl]

Originally posted by jessiesgrrl
As far as credible, I would suggest checking out the info Bob Fenner has on zoanthid care and toxicity on Wet Web Media. That should get rid of the urban legend quality...

Neurotoxins are serious stuff and occur naturally many places in nature, as well as your home. For example, botulinum toxin (botulism) is an anerobic bacterium that can occur quite naturally inyour kitchen cabinet that has any can containing a protein. The can bulges from the bacterial growth, the bacteria produce the toxin as a waste product of consuming the protein and there you go. As for the power of it, well, all those women in California, etc getting rid of wrinkles with Botox are using a neurotoxin directly injected to paralyze facial muscles. FYI, your local emergency department only carries the most common antivenoms. They would not have near the space to carry them all, or the money to keep them on hand as they expire.

I would be careful with all of them as a precaution (Especially Palythoa) - and double check me with Mr. Fenner.

Have a great day
Laurie

LOL For the record, my point was that you were wondering aloud about the potency of the palytoxin of the zoas/palythoa/grandis which is a neurotoxin. Botulinum toxin is a neurotoxin as well. My point with the example of Botulinum toxin was to give you a more well known frame of reference. Perhaps next time I will try to make myself clearer...

And I would NOT want my pets drinking water with Botulinum toxin in it- would you?


Laurie

[homesidereef]

I just read a great article in CORAL magazine volume 3, number 5
"wallflowers of reef aquarium hobby" by daniel knop.
decribes toxcity of some zoas

[Ryanqk]

hmm i need to get ahold of that issue, im gonna subscribe i love that mag too bads its only 6 issues a year

[homesidereef]

I agree! 6 months is far too little

[NanoCube-boy]

Where can i get one of these magazines?

[chocolateblnt]

Very Interesting Thread.