DIY Aquarium Start to Finish

[oharaell]

Also (I guess my #10)...

From your diagrams it looks like ALL of your flow goes through your 'fuge.

Too much flow through a fuge is bad...

I send (on advise from Melev) around 20% of my sump flow through my fuge...

I'd plumb up a some ball valve that lets you control the amount of flow that fuge gets (check out www.melevsreef.com for some great examples).

[oharaell]

Originally posted by NoCarrier
Can you explain this a little more? Obviously you want to avoid losing your pumps, but isn't there a risk in skipping the GFI? And can you explain the grounding rod? I understand it for eliminating stray voltage, but does this help in preventing disasters?



Glad you posted this. I was tossing around the idea of getting one of these... they seem so handy.

The theory is that GFI's trip too easily and must be reset before the flow goes back on. If you get some kind of surge and your GFI flips the pump will not turn back on, untill you notice and reset it.

There was a great thread a few months ago (search for DIY grounding probe) about grounding rods it gets explained much better than I could do on that thread. I'll try to find it in a minute.

I got the corralife timer, and yeah, it's handy, but it stoped working at around 6 mo, and I've read that that's happened to quite a few people.

[pdhenderson]

Originally posted by oharaell


Honestly—YOU (the people congratulating him) are the worse of the 2 evils here, and you should be ashamed of yourself for not having the courage to tell someone when they are clearly making mistakes, and worse, congratulating him for not heeding the advice of people MUCH, MUCH more experienced than him


I come here to learn and hear from others in my hobby. The fact that people are

Well said

[jgarrison]

Originally posted by oharaell
While I don’t agree with posts that only criticize or make fun and don’t offer any constructive criticism, I have to agree with TG. This politically correct back patting is even more dangerous to our hobby than the occasional poking fun at someone for a build that is clearly not designed well.

TG was right in pointing out the PVC fittings to the top off. Everyone here who is worth 2 cents in DIY realizes that what he did there WILL fail eventually. It’s adding weight to a Rubbermaid. There’s not even a reason for PVC there at all! It would have been cheaper to simply find the right fitting… He needed to go to a Kent float valve that takes a 1/4 tubing… Why use a 1” ball valve? There’s ¼ ball for the tubing that works correctly, weighs less and cost less than a $1??? It’s just horrible, horrible lack of planning, and some are saying “GO- JGARRISON!”???

Honestly—YOU (the people congratulating him) are the worse of the 2 evils here, and you should be ashamed of yourself for not having the courage to tell someone when they are clearly making mistakes, and worse, congratulating him for not heeding the advice of people MUCH, MUCH more experienced than him.

JG…

Here’s a list of some things I think should be fixed BEFORE you put water in it.

1) Why plug in indicator lights, you could have wired them in and saved yourself 50% of your wiring. Forget the cost (that’s evidently not an issue to you), by plugging them in you’ve just added more potential points of failure.
2) Shouldn’t have GFI for you pumps… I know this has been pointed out. TG is right about grounding rods as well…
3) Get rid of the Corralife timer (they last about 6 mo, and fail right when you don’t want them to. You’ll end up with lights stuck on or off—both are really bad when you’re out of town)
4) Sure looks like your handles on the stand are crooked to me.
5) Write down today’s date as the date the oharaell told you that your siphon overflow would fail.
6) 6 heaters is just silly, you’ve got much bigger problems if your “fault tolerant” plan needs 6 heaters.
7) I know it’s only for top off, but the fact that you’re requiring a funnel to fill should cue you in that you probably should rearrange some stuff.
8) Don’t use clear tubing… it’s gunna bend (slow flow) and grow algae.
9) Electrical UNDER a Rubbermaid with all that PVC hanging on a bulkhead? Seriously, you had to have realized that was not a good idea!

It really gets under my skin that the it seems like the harshest criticism I’ve seen on this thread is to the people who are the most well meaning (or at least the most correct). I honestly don’t come to RC to get people to pat me on the back, I come here to learn and hear from others in my hobby. The fact that people are saying “Good job” absolutely appalls me. If I want cheerleaders I’ll call my next door neighbor who doesn’t know anything about reefkeeping, just thinks it looks pretty.

1. I think I have plenty of outlets and the light are for other people to easily see if one is tripped. I would notice it most likely by observing my tank.
2. I disagree about the pumps. I do have a grounding probe in the sump. I will also add 2 more (display,refuge)
3. I have had the timers running for over a year no problems, but I will search on them.
4. I am guessing you mean the canopy, they were 2 different types, I already replaced the smaller one.
5. 2 of them would have to fail. 1 is back up. I have had them on a FO tank for 1 year no problems.
6.Let me explain the heater thing, On my FO setup I originally bought 2 (not sure what wattage) when I set it up in the spring it was fine but, when winter came I had to add another (due to I do not heat that room).Now with the new setup I have added another for the extra volume in the refuge and enlarged sump (20 gallon tank)
7. The funnel is for adding water to the fresh water bin. This is because it is gravity feed. Therefore I raised the bin as high as possible.
8. The clear tubing is going to be inside the cabinet low light, I have a valve so it is easily replaced as well. (see page 14)
9. Please review the thread it has been moved and there is an eye hook for the tubing. In regards to why I used the parts I did for the bin. Order an extra bulk fitting, valve and most of the PVC fittings were left over from a mod I did on a skimmer (to keep the water level constant) and system plumbing.

[jgarrison]

Originally posted by oharaell
Also (I guess my #10)...

From your diagrams it looks like ALL of your flow goes through your 'fuge.

Too much flow through a fuge is bad...

I send (on advise from Melev) around 20% of my sump flow through my fuge...

I'd plumb up a some ball valve that lets you control the amount of flow that fuge gets (check out www.melevsreef.com for some great examples).

I can't find it on his site. I did notice that his refuges are quite small in order to fit under his stands. I read awhile back that the larger refuge the better. so I made/bought one as large as I could fit. Also I hate doing maintenance under the stand.

[tgreene]

Originally posted by jgarrison
2. I disagree about the pumps. I do have a grounding probe in the sump. I will also add 2 more (display,refuge)

You can disagree all you want, but the safe bet would be to take the advice of those of us that know far more than you about this!

You need to realize that we didn't just wake up one day with all of the answers... More often than not, we learned them THE HARD WAY, long before we had the internet as a free form of communication, which now allows us to freely share a wealth of information.

If you're not willing to learn from OUR mistakes, then you too will have to endure years of trial an error until you either give up or give in...


My business partner and I were hoping like hell to be able to have water flowing in our new Aquaculture Facility by the end of this coming weekend, but by the end of the day yesterday, we realized it simply wasn't going to be possible because we temporarily ran out of money for the project. We could have easily had things up and running, had we not opted to use the equipment that we did, and then have built in redundancy as well as a cache of spare parts to be kept on hand, but when I designed the system, I wanted to make damn certain that all bases were covered. Don't get me wrong, I could probably have water flowing today if I really wanted, by why cut corners or do things half assed, if it's not necessary..? -- We should be back on track within a couple of weeks, but the delay sucks all the same!

The bottom line is, there is a RIGHT way, and a WRONG way to do things, and when you don't have the experience yourself, you must rely on the experience of others. You keep mentioning your past FO systems, but I'm here to tell you, that reef systems are worlds apart, and you'll quickly discover that as calcium builds up and slows or seizes your pumps, ultimately tripping your GFCI's over and over. Also, just wait till you experience what happens when a coraline sheet breaks free from the side walls of your overflolws, and creates a dam...

[jgarrison]

Originally posted by tgreene
You can disagree all you want, but the safe bet would be to take the advice of those of us that know far more than you about this!

You need to realize that we didn't just wake up one day with all of the answers... More often than not, we learned them THE HARD WAY, long before we had the internet as a free form of communication, which now allows us to freely share a wealth of information.

If you're not willing to learn from OUR mistakes, then you too will have to endure years of trial an error until you either give up or give in...


My business partner and I were hoping like hell to be able to have water flowing in our new Aquaculture Facility by the end of this coming weekend, but by the end of the day yesterday, we realized it simply wasn't going to be possible because we temporarily ran out of money for the project. We could have easily had things up and running, had we not opted to use the equipment that we did, and then have built in redundancy as well as a cache of spare parts to be kept on hand, but when I designed the system, I wanted to make damn certain that all bases were covered. Don't get me wrong, I could probably have water flowing today if I really wanted, by why cut corners or do things half assed, if it's not necessary..? -- We should be back on track within a couple of weeks, but the delay sucks all the same!

The bottom line is, there is a RIGHT way, and a WRONG way to do things, and when you don't have the experience yourself, you must rely on the experience of others. You keep mentioning your past FO systems, but I'm here to tell you, that reef systems are worlds apart, and you'll quickly discover that as calcium builds up and slows or seizes your pumps, ultimately tripping your GFCI's over and over. Also, just wait till you experience what happens when a coraline sheet breaks free from the side walls of your overflolws, and creates a dam...

S0 your telling me that when my 1 of my pumps seize I will be electrocuted with out a gfi.

[tgreene]

Nope, I'm saying that it "appears" that you have a hell of a lot to learn!

Not if but when a pump slows due to calcium buildup, it will overload and trip your GFCI. No power~no pump -- no pump~no oxygenation -- no oxygenation = DEATH to the tank inhabitants.

A few pages back I noticed (and bit my tongue) where you were talking about backup power supplies, and looking into building your own... An $800 generator connected to a breaker via a relay switch will do just fine if you know how to wire it up (I don't, but I'm not an electrician either), or for $2000 the best bet is a Generac unit to feed the whole house.

What most of the people that responded said to do was to just get a large computer backup system, but they too were dead wrong in most instances... Sure, they will work fine to power a Seio, Tunze or Maxijet, but they will not drive a return or CL pump, as the waveform is clipped. This requires the expensive True Sinewave units (which I use to run a Mag-18 sump return), that will not overload and shut off after the first 3-5 minutes. Sure, the first one or two times they are really put to the test they wil probably give you a few hours, which is also a false sense of security, because you'll then be convinced that they will always work, when in fact they wil never work that way again! -- With my True Sine Wave Opti-UPS 1500B, I'm good for just under 8 hours, and after that, I have a DD-battery operated air pump that kicks in, and is good for about 36 hours.

We're here to help, not hurt!

-Tim

[oharaell]

JG, no one's telling you anything that they haven't been told or personally experienced. You can disagree all you want (and you seem to want to quite a bit). It doesn’t make you right.

Quite frankly, I'm getting tired of your endless defense of poor workmanship and lack of attention to detail.

The thoughtless cheerleading seems to embolden you and you continue on it your own reckless and dangerous ways. Regardless of the sound advise I’ve seen given in the past 18 some pages now.

1. I think I have plenty of outlets and the light are for other people to easily see if one is tripped. I would notice it most likely by observing my tank.

That’s not my point, yeah, you’ve got plenty of outlet’s, but why waste the space for more things to plug in, accidently get unplugged or get tangled. Why not do things right the first time while you’ve got everything open?

4. I am guessing you mean the canopy, they were 2 different types, I already replaced the smaller one.

Thanks! That was driving me batty!

6.Let me explain the heater thing, On my FO setup I originally bought 2 (not sure what wattage) when I set it up in the spring it was fine but, when winter came I had to add another (due to I do not heat that room).Now with the new setup I have added another for the extra volume in the refuge and enlarged sump (20 gallon tank)

So you’re driving for a tank 10 degrees off ambient room temperature in normal circumstances… I just think that maybe you should relocate the tank or heat the room. If you have no control of the ambient temp tank temp control is going to be REALLY TOUGH… Again—think before you do, it saves time, money and heartache.

8. The clear tubing is going to be inside the cabinet low light, I have a valve so it is easily replaced as well. (see page 14)

Regardless of the low light, It'll still get algae, and replacing it is still going to be a pain. Instead of adding plumbing why not just DO IT RIGHT? Use spaflex.

9. Please review the thread it has been moved and there is an eye hook for the tubing. In regards to why I used the parts I did for the bin. Order an extra bulk fitting, valve and most of the PVC fittings were left over from a mod I did on a skimmer (to keep the water level constant) and system plumbing.

I did read the part about you trying to figure out how to plumb up your Kent float….
An eye hook to hold up needlessly heavy PCV fittings?
You need to plumb up a Kent float valve (1/4 od) to 5/8 right?
5/8 to 1/4… It’s at HD right where they sell the ¼ ball valve that you can use to replace the PVC one you’ve got. A single adapter, put it as close to the bulkhead as you can. Use a ¼ ball valve and you don’t have any weight issues, and you can get rid of the eye hook.

We're here to help, not hurt!

TG’s is correct. The only people that will hurt you are the ones who keep saying “GOOD JOB JG”.
They’ll also be the first ones to laugh when it all falls apart, and they’ll give you just as much sound advice as they’ve given you up until now… none.

[tgreene]

I'll take it a big step further to help you in any way I can...

Tim Greene
870-627-0594 (cell)

[jgarrison]

Originally posted by oharaell [/i]
[B]JG, no one's telling you anything that they haven't been told or personally experienced. You can disagree all you want (and you seem to want to quite a bit). It doesn’t make you right.

If I felt it need change I did.


The thoughtless cheerleading seems to embolden you and you continue on it your own reckless and dangerous ways. Regardless of the sound advise I’ve seen given in the past 18 some pages now.

I don't think all of the advice it sound


That’s not my point, yeah, you’ve got plenty of outlet’s, but why waste the space for more things to plug in, accidently get unplugged or get tangled. Why not do things right the first time while you’ve got everything open?

I m not worried about the indicator lighting getting tangled.

Thanks! That was driving me batty!

So you’re driving for a tank 10 degrees off ambient room temperature in normal circumstances… I just think that maybe you should relocate the tank or heat the room. If you have no control of the ambient temp tank temp control is going to be REALLY TOUGH… Again—think before you do, it saves time, money and heartache.

I have AC for the summer because it is required. And I save 150 USD$ a month by not heating that room (electric heat) Also with the tank in the room it keeps it at 60F.

Regardless of the low light, It'll still get algae, and replacing it is still going to be a pain. Instead of adding plumbing why not just DO IT RIGHT? Use spaflex.
What is spaflex? The tubing is CHEAP I have 25FT of it. If I had to do it again I may have done it different.

I did read the part about you trying to figure out how to plumb up your Kent float….
An eye hook to hold up needlessly heavy PCV fittings?
You need to plumb up a Kent float valve (1/4 od) to 5/8 right?
5/8 to 1/4… It’s at HD right where they sell the ¼ ball valve that you can use to replace the PVC one you’ve got. A single adapter, put it as close to the bulkhead as you can. Use a ¼ ball valve and you don’t have any weight issues, and you can get rid of the eye hook.
Why replace something that works fine.




Did you find the info on the 20% threw the fuge?

[oharaell]

From http://www.melevsreef.com/allmysumps.html


How much flow should I have in the refugium?

The flow rate through a refugium is slower than through the sump. By use of a ball valve on the water feed to the refugium, you can set the flow rate to your specific desire. You need to avoid stagnant water, and the surface of the water should be broken slightly to avoid a film growing on the surface. Try to achieve a gentle flow throughout this zone.

http://www.melevsreef.com/acrylics/sumps/f/sump_f.html

[oharaell]

Why replace something that works fine.

WORKS FINE????

I'm sorry, but I maybe missed the part where you said you added water and ANYTHING in your system worked. I think I saw where you said you would add water in a “few days” back in Dec, but I’ve yet to see where you did it. I did see the test run, but a test run and a system that functioning properly and stands up to the tests of time are two dramatically different things. It doesn’t work fine, you THINK that it WILL work fine.

I don't think all of the advice it sound

I didn't say it was ALL sound, however, it's becoming abundantly clear that what you think and what the truth is are entirely different concepts...

If I felt it need change I did.

You can feel however you want, but physics don’t give a rats posterior region what you feel. If something is poorly designed it will most likely fail, even if you “feel” that it won’t. If you want a hobby where your feelings make a difference I suggest you research something other than reefkeeping.

Seriously, if your defense for bad ideas is a simple “I think” or “It works fine” when you’ve yet to get the system running, you probably shouldn’t even post it…
Just continue on with posting your pics, and let the cheerleaders stand back and silently laugh at you as they tell you “Good job JG! put water in!!”.

[tgreene]

JG

You responses are absurd at best, because you seem to have an answer for everything, yet your system is a disaster waiting to happen!

Your continued refusal to listen to the sage advice that's being given to you by some of us that actually do know far more about this, than you could imagine, is mind-blowing at best.

You claim that your PVC suspension bridge of a top off system works just fine, yet your system isn't running yet, so how on earth can you make such claims..? Even if it did happen to pass an initial leak test, doesn't mean it will stay that way forever, which is why my comments in regards to the photo in discussion mentioned the torque that would be placed on the Rubbermaid over time. Wanna know how I know..? E-X-P-E-R-I-E-N-C-E -- Experience, as in been there and done that, but long before I knew any better or had anyone to tell me otherwise. The container didn't break, but it did develop a trickle under the bulkhead due to eventual misalignment, which only got worse over time -- and no amount of Silicon or Epoxy on the planet will properly bind to Rubbermaid.


FWIW: I'm in business because of people just like you, that want a reef system at any cost. Eventually, the costs associated with having done everything wrong time and time again will have become so great, that it becomes far more economical to hire a professional to tear it all down and rebuild it properly from the ground up, then continue to maintain it that way.

But as I've said before, what do I know...........

-Tim

[beerguy]

Tim - please find a new thread.

[pdhenderson]

your'e right, he's worng, he's right, you're wrong


In light of what has been going on, how is your aquarium coming along, any new additions?how is you aquarium

[Randall_James]

a seized pump will not trip a GCFI or at least is shouldn't the circuit interrupts are designed to trip ONLY if there is a differential of current going in and current going out. (pretty sure that is how it works)

If a unit has 1amp of power going in, it must by design have 1 amp coming back out.

A seized pump will not dump power into the water column, it will simply do no work. (it could overheat and throw a thermal switch) The power out should still equal the power in.

Now if the pump suffers a break in the insulation for instance, then some power will literally leak out into the water. The GCFI may or may not trip at this point (the power must find a ground). If you poke your hand into the tank and you are grounded and that current decides you are the new path to home, THEN the GFCI should (and better) work.

IF you have a grounding probe in the tank , the unit should trip as soon as the insulation breaks. That should take the human out of the equation all the way...

Will all that noise out of the way, I do not run GFCI units on my main circulation pumps.. I also do not run any ground probes...

I have had GFCI units trip for no apparent reason and after being reset they work fine for months on end only to trip again some day. Lights and accessories, I do not have a problem with, protect away....

Ground probes: there is an endless debate about the pros/cons to them. After a few hours of research on both sides of the debate, I opted to not use them.

Above all I like to keep life as simple as possible on the tanks. (Murphy gets credit here )

I do think some simplification is in order here but I admire the work and determination of this build. After he has it running, I am sure he will make changes (everyone does).

Keep at it, think things through... the best part of this hobby is that there are 100 ways to do just about everything and 99 of them will work just fine.

Just like some of the silly babbles about skimmer box design, there are a number of designs, they all work and they all work within probably 5% of each other... yet you will find some that condemn all but 1 single way... (sort of like the Ford vs Chevy thing)

keep building, keep posting and above all double check everything on the safety side I am sure you can wrangle up some advice here on anything you are not sure of...

[RichConley]

Originally posted by beerguy
Tim - please find a new thread.

Beerguy, pretty much everything Tim is saying is correct.


This guy is going to get himself electrocuted. I dont see why people should be discouraged from telling him that.

[luv951]

I usually don't get involved in things like this....but man this is becoming a tough read.

Its not whether Tim and the others are right or wrong. The issue is how they choose to voice their opinion. "its because of people like you...."

That is just plain RUDE. Imagine being face to face with someone, looking at their system and saying that. Think you'd be invited back again?

I fail to see why so many posters on this board can't seem to figure out that insulting a person to prove a point is faulty logic. I have heard eighth graders use the same. "We were teasing him about his clothes so that he would dress 'normal' and not be an outcast." Give me a break.....

If you have advice, give it. You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink. And telling the horse how stupid he is won't help either.

: )

[RichConley]

luv951, Tim wasnt insulting the original poster.

Who he takes issue with are the people who are encouraging this guy. Hes doing some things that are likely to get him hurt, and theyre encouraging him to do them in an unsafe way.

Things can get heated when someone who doesnt understand whats going on is making reccomendations that very well could get someone killed.

[Randall_James]

Give it a rest... you are not standing there to say "yep death trap" nor is anyone posting here in a position to say that.

If you call defense of this poor guy from rude obnoxious posters encouraging him to do wrong, then you are mistaken...

I find it pretty unlikely that anyone is going to get "KILLED" (I have not found a confirmed death due to marine tank electrocution yet btw, I know there has to be one but have not found it yet) And Tim was in fact insulting the poster early in the thread that encouraged other immature posts to appear (dog pile)

Go jgarrison Go!

[pdhenderson]

correct me if I am wrong, but i think I have a great idea.
Take this arguement elsewhere and allow the thread to continue as planned.
This thread was about his set up and progression, it has been hijacked, with useless babble.
No one cares who is right and wrong. However you are all wrong, and should allow him to post what he is doing which is right.

[Michael Mota]

I say let him go! You have given your advice if he decides not to take it then so be it.

[shag26272]

I really want to see this thing running that way we can see if it works or not, I hope he didnt fill it a while back to find out it didnt work and now doesnt want to admit it.

[chrisjet]

i just read this entire thread from beginning to end... wow entertaing - I believe tgreen has alot of good points. I am somewhat perplexed on jgarrisons ability to ignore most posts on here. Not sure if that is good or bad. However please keep posting pics JG I am anxious to see how your tank comes along. This thread should receive some kind of award for most views and pages and yet not even one pics with any livestock - amazing - rock on JG!