will ich go away untreated?

[wakeboarder2342]

I have an outbreak of ich from a few new fish i got a few weeks ago. so far the powder blue tang and a sailfin tang both have it pretty bad,however they are both eating very well and still look very healthy. My tank is so large i doubt i could ever catch them, and i dont want to go hypo with my display tank but will if i must, i have a bunch of SPS and clams in the tank. any adverse affects to hyposalinity here? I also dont have a refractometer so im nervous about going hypo until i get one which may be too late for the fish!!

the powder blue has shown signs of ich now for 14 days and the sailfin just today.

my questions are if they can survive it will it go away or always be present in the system? or should i just go hypo and treat it? like i said a hospital tank is out as i doubt i could ever catch the fish in the system.

advise is appreciated,

[greenbean36191]

You cannot do hyposalinity in a system with invertebrates. Your options are to either try to wait it out and hope for the best or to catch the fish and use a hospital tank. Of course you could also buy all sorts of magical cures and snake oil, but it won't make a difference.

It is a natural part of the lifecycle of ich to drop off of the host for a while (hence the "success" of snake oil cures), but it won't go away. It will still be present in the system and may or may not re-establish a visible infection. The fish will likely always maintain at least a low level infection though.

There is research that shows that after several months without new introduction of the parasite the ich will eventually get weak and die on its own. However, this takes a long time and isn't something you should count on. It also relies on the fact that no new ich is introduced to reseed the genetic line.

[SAT]

Well, that's a big maybe. It is conceivable that your fish could develop and sustain immunity long enough to eradicate the disease. It's also quite possible they will fail to do that and instead have just enough resistance to prevent the parasites from overwhelming them. In that case, you could have a resident population for a long time. This explains the popular theory that Ich is always resident, which I don't believe to be inevitable.

There's a theory that after about a year the cell line will die out on its own. This phenomenon was observed by one researcher, who found they could not sustain a strain of Ich past a year even by providing "fresh meat" (in the form of a fish with no prior immunity) on a regular basis. However, this experiment was not repeated and I would not count on it being a reliable phenomenon.

[wakeboarder2342]

my question is at what point is the ich the worst? its been over 2 weeks now since the signs appeared. I just spent an hour trying to catch the dang things and its not possible in my reef tank! i did however just order a refractometer and setup a 30 gallon quarantine so when i restock i will make sure to quarantine for 4 weeks before any new introductions.

any advise to give my fish the best fighting chance? current stock list is
1 yellow tang, no ich so far
1 lawnmower blenny no ich
1 diamond goby no ich
1 foxface lo. no ich
1 powder blue tang, lots of ich for 2 weeks now
1 black&yellow sailfin tang lots of ich for 2 days now
2 greenchromis no ich


all fish are eating and breathing normally. i guess now its just a matter of time and the lesson learned for being to lazy to quarantine. what do u recommend for quarantine? 4 weeks? with 1.009?

[kimoyo]

jamesbburgess - I just did this today for my tang that has black ich. To treat it I have to give him freshwater dips. I decided to start training these guys to go into a clear plastic container and nets to eat. I got some seaweed and one of those clips with a suction cup on the end. I've been feeding these guys the seaweed for weeks now so they like it. I soaked it in some garlic today but it would have been fine without. Now my fish are somewhat comfortable with my hands in the tank but it might take some patience on your part and several feedings this way. I put the suction on the bottom of the container and clipped the seaweed to it. Then I held the container horizontally in the water. I have an angel that always goes for it first which is good because the other fish see and I'm not going for him. After a while most of them will go in and out. But when the tang that I want to catch goes in, I turn the container vertical disorientating him for a second and lift it up. Its pretty easy with the clear container. HTH.

[kevin2000]

Originally posted by jamesbburgess
my question is at what point is the ich the worst?

No simple answer to that ... the ultimate impact on the fish will depend on a variety of factors including how healthy the fish are .. how crowded the tank .. and whether the fish have developed any immunity to ich.

Remember that each individual ich trophont can generate another 200 plus ich - thats why a small ich outbreak can suddenly overwhelm a tank.

Heres an article on ich ... note the diagram outlining the ich lifecyle.

http://www.petsforum.com/personal/tr...marineich.html

[Triggerfish]

for a reef that you cannot remove inhabitants from you could try kick ich.
i would get enough to treat for 30 days.

[wakeboarder2342]

Kick Ich has never been proven to do anything for ich.

[Triggerfish]

Originally posted by jamesbburgess
Kick Ich has never been proven to do anything for ich.

not proven by who, you?


http://www.reef-aquarium.net/resources/disease/ich.html

have fun............

[greenbean36191]

not proven by who, you?

By anyone.

The ONLY proven cures for saltwater ich are copper, hyposalinity, and tank transfer.

[Triggerfish]

Originally posted by greenbean36191
By anyone.

really? you tried it as well eh...

Testimonials:

Excerpted from an article by Steven Pro
"it required twice as many applications as the manufacturer stated on the instructions to affect a complete cure."

---

maxilaria 03-25-2004 11:41 AM

"I've used ruby reef kick ich in my reef and it's worked and not caused any harm to my inverts."

---

03-14-2002 , 10:27 AM #15
Gary D

"I've used Kick Ick and it worked for me."

---

kreblak 08-04-2003 10:37 AM

"I have used No-Ich with great success against SW Ich."

---

10-17-2005, 02:44 PM #3
NateHanson

"I used kick ick on my first reef tank, with apparent success and no side effects."

[wakeboarder2342]

triggerfish,

you still have not provided a scientific study that had PROVEN that kick ich works.

i can give you 10 testimonials of people that say they are 100% sure the have seen elvis in the supermarket.. does that make it a scientific fact?

trust me if it worked then they could scientifically prove it works and we would all use it.

10 or even 100 people swearing it works does not in any way prove it does anything.

and have i tried it? yes i did about a year back, did it save a single fish? NOPE

[Triggerfish]

lol....good luck w/your ich man...

[greenbean36191]

Excerpted from an article by Steven Pro
"it required twice as many applications as the manufacturer stated on the instructions to affect a complete cure."

I'm sure Steven would say the same thing I said if asked about proven cures. In fact he's said it before.

[Triggerfish]

Originally posted by greenbean36191
It will still be present in the system and may or may not re-establish a visible infection.

what, can you elaborate on that one a bit?
you are aware of the Trophont stage, No?

[wakeboarder2342]

triggerfish, all we are saying is to proivde 1 example of a scientific study that proves that kick ich is an effective treament for marine ICH.

testimonials and theories are useless.

like i said, i have seen testimonials that elvis lives and that putting windex on a cut will help it heal faster. however that is not science and it is not FACT.

[Triggerfish]

dude - effective treatments work in some instances and not others.. why does hypo(scientifically proven study?) work on some strains and not others?

i cannot locate "1 example of a scientific study that proves that kick ich is an effective treament for marine ICH" right now..
as i will be taking some time to find "1 example of a scientific study that proves that kick ich is not an effective treament for marine ICH."

But to satisfy yourself,,why don't you just pm Steven to see some documentation regarding the quote I supplied you earlier..

[Triggerfish]

having a tough time finding anything that "scientifically proves it is not effective."

but look here... some of the descriptions of these protozoal infections sound pretty similiar..

http://parasitology.informatik.uni-w.../n/h/2159.html

[tommmy]

"I just spent an hour trying to catch the dang things and its not possible in my reef tank"

Having a Plexiglas partition and one or two breaks in your rock where partition can be placed. Making a large tank 1/3 smaller when needed is great for times like this.

[greenbean36191]

what, can you elaborate on that one a bit?

Sure. Cryptocaryon is microscopic. It takes a pretty heavy case of it before signs are visible. Your fish can still have ich without you seeing it. Unless all of your fish develop full immunity to ich and it starves or you take action to get rid of it, the ich is still in the system whether you see it or not.

[baobao]

Does use of ozonizer and UV help keep lthe level of ich, if it is present in system, at bay? My system has a royal gamma that keeps scratching on sand. I suspect that he may have ich. However, he still has a reasonable appetite and none of the other fish have shown the ich. I know, you're probably thinking that the ich will fall off and come back to infect the other fish. However, this has been the status quo for over two months now. My approach has been to leave things be unless they get more serious. in that case, i would remove all the livestock and treat with cupramine. to keep the ich, if present, in check, i'm using garlic extreme, selcon, and trying to keep water quality high with use of uv sterilizer and ozonier. in addition, i'm also using marc weiss' additives.( marc weiss is well known in the industry).

[Triggerfish]

Originally posted by greenbean36191
Sure. Cryptocaryon is microscopic. It takes a pretty heavy case of it before signs are visible. Your fish can still have ich without you seeing it.

ya got to read up on the stuff bean...not all stages of the lifecycle are invisible to human eye..the parasite feeds off the fish,,as continues to feed and mature it grows becoming a visible area of infection.

[kimoyo]

jamesbburgess - have you tried to catch your fish with the couple of suggestions you have recieved?

[wakeboarder2342]

i didnt have a refractometer so i ordered one yesterday and paid for 2 day shipping, it should be here tomorrow then i can try again to catch everything and quarantine it.

any other fish catching suggestions are welcomed!!

[Zoom]

I have try Kick ick before in my 90G FOWLR tank all seven fish die in the end.