New treatment on inch

[Pandora]

Thanks again. My background is mostly in FW, so this is good to know.

As I recall, average life cycle for FW shorter, (2-3 weeks) but highly temperature variable... as with SW.

[White Pointer]

Did not anybody ever wonder if the fishes have ich in the ocean?
If they do have, do they spread to other fishes?
How do they get well?
So many possible host available, or only tank or pond or confined area will they get ich?

Care to share?

[billsreef]

The big difference between our tanks and the ocean is confined space When that one tomont reproduces into a couple hundred, they have a few million gallons of ocean in which to find a new fish. In our tanks, it's only a few gallons they need to search through for that fish, and it's often the same fish.

[appellativo]

since the ocean's so big its probably harder for an ich parasite to find a host (theyre not all that mobile). also there is probably better conditions for the fish in the ocean so they get stressed less and therefore are less prone to get it. but in our closed (and sometimes overstocked and less than perfect environment) systems its very easy for them to reproduce and find hosts. I read the gyst of that somewhere, cant remember where, sorry.

[appellativo]

another interesting tidbit i read in an article (by Stephen Pro, I believe), is that saltwater ich falls off the fish after it gets dark. the reason for this is so that when the fish has found its spot for the night that it regularly goes to, when the ich hatches three or so days later under the cover of darkness (that's the trigger, is darkness), there will be a nice fishy tucked away in its bed for the newly reproduced parasites to attach to, which is exactly where the fish slept three days prior when the first parasite dropped off to split and multiply. sinister, huh?

[jdieck]

Originally posted by Paul B
What the hell in "inch"
Paul

Hi Paul... I think it is usually 1/12 of a foot or about 25.4 milimeters.. :LOL:

[White Pointer]

Yesterday was the 13th day of my dosage using ecolibrium. I must confess that while this tread was posted, I do not have a QT. My blue tang was badly covered with ich and purple tang start to show sign too. I tried to get stop parasite, was told stock run out. Dare not try RXP because I had cucumber and starfish. Option 2 is to set up the QT if ecolibrium don't work. I had observed that on the 7th day of dosage, blue tang recovered. Purple tang condition better.

Today both tang show no sign of ich. Of course there are many factors to consider and I'm not advocate that ecolibrium is the sure stuff.

Skimmer is off for 2 weeks and no carbon. This weekend will put my carbon back in the sump and turn on the skimmer.

The test will be for the next couple of weeks or months, will the ich come back to the same fish.

The next question is since the ich leech onto the host, is it true that fish that have scale will not have ich as compare to fish without scale. Is that the reason that tang are prone to ich?

Sorry guys for asking too many questions, but I did learn so much from you guys. Vaulable experience!!!!

[Randall_James]

In short, the parasite falls off the fish within a week with or without any treatment at all. They are now laying on the bottom of the tank.
The fish are either going to reacquire the parasites within the next couple weeks, or they may have acquired an immunity to them.

Either way, I would be almost positive sure that the parasite is alive and well in the tank.

The problem here lies in the fact that the process would have been identical if you had put taco sauce, milk, ginger, or ground fingernail into the tank.

So here a guy that does not fully understand the process of the ich jumps on a message board declaring that he has a new "Miracle" cure. And the debate (I think more the attempt to educate him) starts. Well another guy dumps the same stuff in his tank, the ich falls off as part of its normal life cycle, and again we have another claim that the same stuff works.

What you do not hear about is that within a few months, all the guys fish are dead. He blames something else or does not admit to the failure of the product.

A 10 tank science class experiment (someone suggested earlier this is all that was needed) just can not replace a real trial.

I myself would just be elated at the thought of an effective reef safe treatment but I doubt that is coming in the form of a traditional medication. I happen to deal with genetically engineered drugs for the immune system.

We are currently involved in a pair of studies about these drugs. These are so cool, they invade the DNA of the cell, look for markers and then attach to the correct receptors as determined by its design (thank you genome project).

As there are a number of protozoan in aquaria you want, you are going to need to target the "bad" one some way. I guess until then we are stuck with the "shotgun" methods we have now.

[billsreef]

Originally posted by White Pointer
The next question is since the ich leech onto the host, is it true that fish that have scale will not have ich as compare to fish without scale. Is that the reason that tang are prone to ich?

It's not so much the scales thing as it is that tangs have very little slime coat. Hence one less layer of protection for the ich to get through. Just for an example. Mandarins have no scales, but a very heavy slime coat, so do eels. Both are resistant (not immune, just resistant) to ich.

BTW questions are good, so keep on asking

[White Pointer]

Is it possible for the sand goby cucumber, hermit, etc eat those cysts or eggs of the parasites in the sand.

We understand that the above mentioned usually browse through the sand eating detrius and left over food, will they inevitably eat up those parasites?

Trying to learn from all you guys and the questions sometimes may sound ridiculous.

Please be patience with me, and hope more people can benefit from this forum.

cheers

[Paul B]

W Pointer, it may be possable that some animals may eat some paracites after they fall off fish but there would be thousands of them and there is no way these animals would make an impact. That is my opinion anyway. A diatom filter also removes the free swimming ones but not enough to impact the course of the disease because some will be attached to fish and some will be in the sand, rocke, etc.
Paul

[White Pointer]

Thanks Paul B

imagine thousand or even million all over the tank. I do hope some marine biologist can come up with a good solution that can wipe them out and at the same time reef safe.

Since most of the reefers do not believed that these "medication" eg stop parasites, RXP, Ecolibrium etc, works. Would the relevant person who manufactured this product care to voice your opinion?

cheers

[appellativo]

(silence....hee hee)

[Paul B]

I personally do not think that there will ever be a reef safe paracite "cure" because paracites are invertabrates. To try to kill a harmful invertabrate while not harming higher invertabrates will be difficult. I also believe that there will be an antibiotic of sorts that would make fish immune to them. I know my fish are immune to paracites so I know that an immunity is possable. If it is possable for some tanks then it should be possable for all tanks. I doubt any research has been done on this for ornamental fish although much research has been done on food fish. Food fish are not affected by paracites because for the most part they are raised in pens in the sea or in rivers where the paracites would never get to epidemic proportions.
I know this is not going to help with the people whose fish are infected now.
Good luck.
Paul

[Randall_James]

Originally posted by Paul B
Food fish are not affected by paracites because for the most part they are raised in pens in the sea or in rivers where the paracites would never get to epidemic proportions.
I know this is not going to help with the people whose fish are infected now.
Good luck.
Paul

I think farm raised fish have a major advantage in that they do not see outside organisms introduced very often. The tanks I looked at for fry were all BB cylinders and not a spec of substrate to be found in the pools. They also had tremendous circulation in the grow out tanks.

[greenbean36191]

Food fish are not affected by paracites because for the most part they are raised in pens in the sea or in rivers where the paracites would never get to epidemic proportions.

Food fish are very much affected by parasites and in some cases are actually spreading them to wild fish. Cultured salmon in the Atlantic are causing big problems right now because they are spreading things like sea lice and all sorts of parasites to wild fish (one of several problems they are causing). The only reason ich has gotten so much research money is because it's an economically important parasite to mariculture operations.

Just for those that say that copper treatment isn't something that a professional would do or that QT is impractical, here is an interesting little tidbit I learned today. Our local reef club went for a special behind the scenes tour of the Tennessee Aquarium's new saltwater building today. At one point someone asked how they treat incoming fish. The aquarium apparently thinks that QT is so important that they have an entire building off-site entirely dedicated to QT (not because it's so impractical they had to devote a whole building to it, but because this is one of the biggest aquariums in the US). Every fish, no matter how big or small, has to go through QT before being brought to the aquarium. All incoming teleost fish are treated for 30 days with copper.

[Paul B]

I still atand by my statement "food fish are not affected by paracites". They may be spreading them to wild fish but I doubt fish in the wild are killed by ich. The paracites are on all wild fish I am sure but in a tank the paracites have to infect the same fish with many paracites, in the wild there is just too much water. I personally have never seen a fish in the sea with a severe case of ich in almost 40 years of diving. I could be wrong as I am not the God of ich knowledge but I do have a lot of experience with it.
Take care.
Paul

[White Pointer]

Hi Paul B,

I would like to relate an incident that happened to my friend. He always go for routine medical check up. So one day he complained to the doctor that he felt some discomfort in his tummy. After some check and from x-ray report, they found a few sac in his tummy.

So he went for an operation to removed those sac or cysts. He was told later that they found worms and other parasites in the sac.

Later he realised that the likely caused was he liked to eat sashimi and sushi (japanese raw fish) every weekend. He dine in fine restaurant so the quality is not a subject.

I had checked with one japanese friend that they take de-worm medication every year or twice a year.

I am not saying that eating raw fish will definitely develop this problems. So sometimes when you go diving, the appearance of the fish look fine, but they can be a host.

Slime coat is very important to the fishes, so when the fish is infected with ich, will the sick fish slime? If the sick fish eat well and immune system is in placed, will the slime coat help to get rid of the ich on its body?

We understand that if the fish is healty, and slime, chances that it will not get infected. But what about already infected fish and the fish start to slime, will it help?

Maybe those companies are producing those "medications" to help the fish to slime?

[Paul B]

Slime coat is very important to the fishes, so when the fish is infected with ich, will the sick fish slime? If the sick fish eat well and immune system is in placed, will the slime coat help to get rid of the ich on its body?

White Pointer, I am sorry but I don't really understand what you are saying.
The slime coat on fish is there to help protect the fish but it obviousely does not help in all circumstances. I know that all wild fish are infected with a few paracites and I have seen many fish with large paracites but paracites in the sea have a lot of water to go through to find a host where in a small tank the paracites cant swim a few inches without finding a fish. In the sea the paracites mature, multiply and fall off the fish, the fish only have a few paracites at a time and it does not bother the fish.
Thats why you never see fish in the sea die of ich.
Paul

[Randall_James]

Originally posted by greenbean36191
Every fish, no matter how big or small, has to go through QT before being brought to the aquarium. All incoming teleost fish are treated for 30 days with copper.

Ok I had to Google "teleost fish"

Can you imagine infecting your "public" aqaurium with some parasite because you did not qt? How about having to clean up the mess afterwards? Oh man..............

[White Pointer]

This is an update, 2 weeks had past since dosing the main tank with ecolibrium. Did not see any white spot on any fishes and definitely not rubbing any surface or sand.

No introduction of new fish, and all are eating very well. I had been feeding them soak garlic food since I started this hobby.

I had not introduced any QT yet, will continue to monitor the situation and keep an update

cheer

[ATJ]

White Pointer,

It is now nearly 4 months since you last posted in this thread. How did the fish end up doing? Was the treatment with Ecolibrium fully successful for you?

[EnglishRebel]

I have been reading this thread with interest as I'm still planning my first tank. I plan on adding a QT tank that will be a stand alone tank with its own heater and a recirculatory UV filter. I will have a feed from the main tank and one drain so I can do a water change with display tank water.
I have read many posts on RC and some successful aquarists swear by QT and some say "ICH is always present" and all you have to do is keep your fish healthy and you will never have ICH.
Jeffbrig ( http://archive.reefcentral.com/forum...5&pagenumber=1) set up a QT tank from day one and his new clowns came down with a disease that he has successfully treated with hyposalinity and medications.
GregM779 (http://archive.reefcentral.com/forum...hreadid=596694) swears by a UV sterilizer and has never had ICH despite no QT.
I would like to think that the parasite does not go dormant so by quarantining we can keep the parasite out of our tanks.
I do have one question though. When I set up my tank is it best to add all of the rocks and inverts and let sit for 8 weeks so any ICH will die off? What about adding corals or snails etc? Do I have to QT those too? How do you acclimatize these to your new tank without introducing any of the LFS water?

[appellativo]

you would have to quarantine ALL new additions, rock etc for 8 wks in order to guarantee you are not introducing ich into the main tank (by letting it die off in a separate tank due to not being able to complete its life cycle with no fish host). not many people do this. usually if you keep your water parameters good and no temp fluctuations, even if ich is present, it wont get a good foothold if your livestock is not subject to stresses/overcrowding/poor water quality.