Kold Sterile...........

[joeyz]

Is it true that these units don't remove silicates?
If not is that a bad thing? How bout' the units ability to remove phosphate and how long the media can keep removing phosphate before requiring replacement.
I am considering buying one of these instead of an RO/DI.
Whatta think?
Thanks

[Aaron Shelley]

I have been meaning to post about this too.

My LFS says that, "Kold Sterile only removes the bad stuff, doesn't lower pH as much and leaves the good trace minerals".

He sells it for $.99/5 gal.

I'm curious about it. What's the real deal? Is there a URL to learn more?

I bought some for a 75 I'm setting up to try it out, but want to make sure it is legit before I introduce livestock.

Thanks!

[JamesB]

I've had my KS unit for over three years now. It removes heavy metals, organic compounds, chlorine and chloramine, and bacteria/protozoans. In the "standard" configuration, it leaves silicates, phosphates, calcium, magnesium. There is an "insert" that will remove the silicates and phosphates. OR, you can run the effluent through a separate DI column if you want. I believe their website is http://www.poly-bio-marine.com.

I have no (zero, nada) water quality issues with the KS unit. Jason at PremiumAquatics recently discontinued them as a result of customer service issues. I don't know what those issues were about, but I have not experienced any problems.

The KS unit has a relatively high flow rate (3.8 gpm) without the DI or silicate insert, which makes it great for filling new tanks or for water changes. We also use it to filter our drinking water (without the DI unit). There is a noticeable improvement.

FWIW, James

[Jaffo_botz]

There's a separate phos/silicate filter you add at the end if these are a problem from your tap/well water.

See post http://archive.reefcentral.com/vbull...?threadid=9421 for more info as this was discussed. There is also a link to Kold's web site that also talks about this.

The first part of the post is on some problems with a MO vendor and Kold....goto the middle of the post where there is good info...

[Agu]

Kold Sterile is designed to produce quality tap water, not pure water for a reef. The pH and alkalinity will be higher than ro/di water which can be a good thing, maybe.

The optional alumina adsorber does remove silicates and phosphates but you'll have to slow the flow to a max of two liters/min. If your water has high levels of these compounds the flow rate has to be even less.

Poly-bio-marine does not guarantee their product, except if it's broken in transit or defective. Check their guarantee on their website !!!! 30 days, manufacturing defects only!!!

Before buying their product check your water parameters at http://www.waterdata.com , forward this info to poly-bio, and ask if their product will work with your source water without further water treatment.Ask for a suitability guarantee in writing!!!

If it will work for your application, I have a unit available for $175, needs all new media(about $40). It won't work with my source water unless I'm willing to add muriatic acid to the resultant water to lower pH. (and start buying the alumina adsorber in bulk)

Poly-bio does not dispute that their product does not work in my application without using vast quantities of adsorber and adding muriatic acid to the final product, but four requests asking them to take it back have been ignored.

Kold Ster-il for sale !!!! I'm serious, 2 months old, needs new media.

Agu

[joeyz]

Agu - not really sure what to check for.
Here's a link for NY's water supply (I got it from the link you posted):
http://www.nywater.com/

Let me know what you think?

[Agu]

Joeyz,
I won't pretend to be a water pro, email Ken Howery at poly bio, he knows everything!!!

My utility adds a flocculant (polyphosphate) to precipitate metals which the ks does not remove adequately.

You may have this, or other issues affecting the use of a ks unit.

Kold Ster-il for sale!!!!

Agu

[joeyz]

I just spoke with Ken regarding my water and the units.
He was very helpful and advised me that all I needed was Activated Alumina for my silicates and phosphates which btw he claims is very low in my area. He is about 1/2 hour from me.

AGU, so you say $175 for the unit?
Drop me an email and we'll talk about it.

[Flatlander]

Where its good, is for use on my well water. That would destroy ro membranes in no time.

[WaterKeeper]

Enough is enough. I can't stands no more!

Boy Agu---are you being nice.

A week or two ago Agu had a marithon session of e-mails between he and Mr. Howery about the Kold Ster-il unit. It was Mr. Howery's contention that DI/RO are not capable of removing polyphosphates. Agu copied me on most of Mr. Howery's correspondance.

I told Agu that to my knowledge either RO or DI was capable of removing polyphosphate but would check on it. I ran a sample of municipal tap water treated with sodium hexametaphosphate, 1.26 mg/l, through a laboratory grade DI resin which reduced it to below detectable limits. Mr. Howery claimed correctly that most test kits do not detect polyphosphates. In my case I converted the polyphosphate to orthophosphate before I analyzed the sample by boiling in an acidic solution thus hydrolyzing the condensed phosphate. This is the classic Standard Method for determining polyphosphate. I cited the method used to which Mr. Howery responded that I was a "Kitchen Chemist" and he needed results from "published sources"

My lab being EPA certified was not about to embark on a major research project on the matter. I simply stated that in one simple test a mixed bed DI resin was indeeed able to remove polyphosphate. Also, Mr. Howery did not provide any "published reports" backing his claim that RO/DI was not able to remove polyphosphate.

Since that time I also checked on the ability of a molecular sieve (Grade 521 Activated Alumina Fisher Scientific-- Aluminum Calcium Sodium Silicate) to remove polyphosphate. In test #1 at pH 9.3 it removed 47% of the polyphosphate. In a sample acidified to pH 4.2 with hydrochloric acid it removed 93%. Unfortunately, in the both cases it increased silicate levels from below detection limits to 1.07 mg/l and 0.36 mg/l respectively.

For the price you pay for one of these units you can get a very nice RO or DI unit that will remove both polyphosphate and silica. I, unlike Mr.Howery, have nothing to sell and would not provide Agu with false information. Mr. Howery will give you 30 minutes of his valuble time, a $200 value, to sell you on the benefits his Kold Ster-il system. It would also be nice if he would giving some data on RO removal rates for polyphosphate. I would have done this but my unit is so large it made it impossible to run polyphosphate through the system.

Yours Truly,

The Kitchen Chemist

Sorry Agu, after all those condescending e-mails you got I had to cut loose. If you paid by credit card I would have stopped payment on that sucker.

[NorthCoast]

First to Agu, sorry to hear about your situation.

Second, does the Kold-Steril have an applicable use with regard to our reefs? I will not defend the company or comment on second-hand conversations, emails or posts; however, I currently use this product and I have had good results. It seems a shame that customer service may taint this product if it could be used in a large number of locations.

Finally, should I be concerned? What are the Kold-Steril's limitations - beyond what the manufacturer may publish? I have not tested my fresh water or tap water in a while, should I?

Any thought are appreciated...

Thanks,
NC

[joeyz]

Since the "Kitchen Chemist" (LOL) took this thread to another level, I now will reveal to you how my conversation began with Poly-Bio Marine. First off, some scratchy, 4 pack a day of no-filter camel cigarette voiced old hag answered the phone. I said "Good after! I have some questions about your Kold Sterile system." She responded with a bit of a tone and said "Before calling did you check our website?" I said "No I didn't, I'd like to ask you a few questions first if you don't mind." Well she wasn't too happy with that and said "Well, you'll have to check our website first before calling here!" I told her I didn't have internet access at the moment. She asked me if I knew someone that DID have access and if I could use their computer to read their information on the site. Before I got a chance to tell her where she could shove her unit, Ken picks up the phone. Already having a not so good feeling about them I decided to proceed with my questions.
I guess he likes to talk because he wouldn't let me get a word in on the conversation. He basically told me the same thing -- that RO does not filter out phosphates. I kind of found that hard to believe. He went on to explain to me that for $10 he could add an activated amonium bag of granules that would absorb any phosphates or silicates in my water and that it should last for at least 1500-2000 gallons of filtered water. Is this true? I don't know.

All I really want to know here is if this thing works.
Is it as good as RO/DI? From what I can see, if it does than it's a much better product. For a little bit more money you get a unit that processes much much much more water than an RO unit does w/o waster and the price of the replacement media is a quarter of what it costs to replace RO parts.

Regarding Jason, Ken told me that his company stopped selling to Jason because he thought he was some kind of big deal and refused to help customers out with technical questions. First of all, I've dealth with Jason and he is not like that at all. Even if this product is that could, I would have second thoughts about purchasing from a company with that kind of attitude.

Any assistance with information on this product will be very useful for me as I am getting ready to purchase something in the next couple of weeks.
Thanks

[Agu]

OK, read my first post. Poly bio marine's attitude is "caveat emptor" or for those without a latin background, "buyer beware". You buy it, if it doesn't work for your application too bad, your problem.

Regarding Jason at PA. He sold me the unit, and is now under legal restraint/threat if he deals in their products. He's offered to give me store credit equal to my loss when/if I sell the kold ster-il. That is above and beyond anything one could expect considering the situation. PA is a class act!!!!

I won't stiff someone else selling this unit, and believe in full disclosure of my problems. Before buying it I did the research, and if you don't have my particular problem I still believe it's a good alternative. (kold ster-il for sale, needs cleaning and all new media)

Northcoast, check your water info at http://www.waterdata.com My local water utility uses poly phosphates (a flocculant)to precipitate metals and other crud out of the water. When I use the Kold Ster-il water to make salt water the ca and mg precipitates out of solution so my make up water has reduced ca and mg, and tons of poly phosphates. Even in this unusual situation they've refused to even acknowledge my question about suitability guarantees, after asking four times.

Waterkeeper, My personal inclination is to flame the heck out of a certain manufacturer, but why bother when the facts are bad enough. I've determined that they really don't care, especially about some info from the regional sales manager for Dow thin films(maker of most ro membranes), a designer of ultra pure water systems for the Mayo Clinic, or some "kitchen Chemist".

Agu

[WaterKeeper]

Your right Agu & Joeyz I did flame em pretty bad.

I do point out to all that I only tested ONE claim and that was that DI does not remove polyphosphate. My limited results indicate it does. Good DI water is usually close to 18.3 million ohms which is virtually as pure as it gets for ionic compounds.

Could not find any comparisons on their site on phosphate removals. Their info was mainly on heavy metals and organics. I do know that RO is not effective on short chain organics such as methylene chloride and benzene. Neither is DI. Carbon is usually used if you have a problem with these. Also, they will air strip if you have a skimmer.

Did find it interesting on the claim that pH goes down when using DI. They only used a strong acid cation resin in the test, no anion resin. Result was that they formed hydrochloric acid, HCl, when they striped the sodium from common NaCl and replaced it with hydrogen. For DI to work you need to remove the chloride too with an basic anion resin. What did they think would happen to the pH?

Anyhow, WaterKeeper does not endorse products and does not have enough information to evaluate the other claims for the Kold Ster-il unit. You had to see the e-mail that Agu got to see why I was so defensive.

P.S. Agu, polyphosphate is a sequestering agent not a flocculant. It keeps things in solution rather than precipitating them out.

[joeyz]

AGU - I'd like to see that email if you don't mind
BTW - I'm thinking over your offer. Just give me some time on it. OK?

[Agu]

Joeyz,

No problem, I'm not sure about confidentiallity, so act accordingly.

I really like the ks concept, pure water with no waste water. It just doesn't work in my situation, and I'm the one getting ....(expletive deleted).

Agu

[NorthCoast]

Agu,

Thanks for the link. My H2O Company does not have on-line water info, but, the web page has a number to call and a fax. I 'll just call during their office hours.

Thanks Again,
NC

[Doug]

Hi JoeyZ,

I have a Kold Steril also and when I first bought the unit I had the Alumina installed and it gave me a slower flow rate than my 60gpd Ro/Di unit. They installed the Alumina at the factory and I noticed all these little white beads in all three chambers of the unit. It also added a very sticky residue to all of the cartridges and filter pads. I ended up throwing out all of the pads an cartridges and replaced them with a new set with the Alumina stuff.

I did some Kitchen Chemist work, although not like what Tom has done, and tested the phosephate with a hobbiest kit and found that the level was the exact same as my tap water. I did test the phosephate from my Ro/Di and I was unable to detect any. I also noticed that when you mix Instant Ocean salt with water from the Kold Steril that it leaves a cloudy white powder in the water and on the sides of the mixing container. It seems to make something, maybe Ca or Mg, seperate from the water but I am not sure. Tom, do you know what it might be? It said something in the directions for the unit that plating might occur when the water is mixed with synthetic salts if there is phosephate in the water.

The main reason that I bought the unit is because I wanted to keep the higher pH / Alk / Ca / and Mg in my water in hopes that it would keep the levels in my tanks a little higher without using supplements but I do not want the high phosephate or silicates.

I do use the Kold Steril for my freshwater tank and for my FOLR and it seems okay but I will not use the water in my reeftanks. For the reefs I use a Kent Maxxima/HiS 60gpd with a Tap Water Purifier on the output. The TWP used to last for about 50g before I got the Ro/Di unit but now it lasts for at least a 900g and I replace the TWP filter every six months even though it doesn't need it.

I had bought the Kold Steril in hopes of keeping the good things in the water and not having any waste water but it seems that without additional filtration it does not work very well on Chicago city water.

While I wish I had better results but I would say don't waste your money on the Kold Steril and invest it in a good Ro/Di which is cheaper to buy up front. I think I paid $240.00 for my 60gpd Ro/Di unit and $300.00 for the Kold Steril.

One last thing that I almost forgot about. Since I started using the Kold Steril I have run about 50 gallons through it and I have noticed that the poly filter pads are already starting to turn yellow after the small amount of water. I have put about 1100 gallons though my Ro/Di unit and still get great water everyday even without using the flush kit that I am too lazy to hook up yet. There is a lot of waste from the Ro/Di but it is a small price to pay for the quality water that comes out of it.

HTH

Doug

[Ninong]

Originally posted by joeyz
He basically told me the same thing -- that RO does not filter out phosphates. I kind of found that hard to believe.

If you have a lot of phosphates, reverse osmosis alone may not remove enough of them, that's why you would add a mixed-bed deionization filter. RO/DI combined does remove just about everything.

Ninong

[Agu]

Doug,

You're having my symptoms exactly. If you'd like an explanation of what's happening I'll forward the email that explains the problem I'm having. Notice you're from the midwest also, seems the makeup of our water makes the kold steril unusable.

Agu

Ninong, Ken Howery of poly-bio-marine states the ro/di does not remove phosphates and that anyone who says differently is a liar, idiot, or closet chemist. Don't take it personally, I didn't.

[joeyz]

Well after everyone's bad experiences with these people, I might have to think twice. The only thing is that we have excellent water here in NY. In fact, NY's water is also known as the "champagne of water." Ken at Kold Sterile told me that my water supply contains extremely low levels of phosphates and silicates due to the quality of water we have to start off with. I am totally ignorant when it comes to all of this but Ken told me that other areas with lower qualities of water add phosphates to precipitate the heavy metals in the water supply. According to him, we do not have a heavy metal problem, thus very low phosphates.

If this is true then maybe the Kold Sterile product IS for me. If not I guess it will be RO/DI.

Is any of this true or make sense? Thanks

[Agu]

Joeyz,

Makes complete sense, the performance of the Kold-sterile is a function of your source water. That's why I said ask poly-bio if your water is good enough to use a kold sterile. Before buying I checked all the posts regarding kold sterile (Doug, where were you?), all posters were very happy with their units, but none were from the midwest as I now recall. Even though I've been stiffed, the concept is still viable in the right situation.

Disclaimer, I still have a kold-steril unit for sale. $175, needs all new media.

Agu

btw, check Waterkeepers comment to me regarding precipitating as opposed to sequestering.

[joeyz]

Originally posted by Agu
Joeyz, Makes complete sense, the performance of the Kold-sterile is a function of your source water. That's why I said ask poly-bio if your water is good enough to use a kold sterile.

Agu - if you were selling Kold Sterile (forget for a minute that you are an honest guy), if I called you up and said "Is my water source good enough to use with a kold sterile unit" what would you answer me? Would you say no, go buy an ro/di? I think not! So of course he was going to say yes.

The only thing on my side is that I live in ny and we have excellent water. The other thing is that I live a half hour from Ken and he was very familiar with my water quality which he said was good.

I need to think this over a little more.
Again, I will definitely let you know about your unit.

[Agu]

Joeyz,

I will not screw over a RC friend (unlike some manufacturers I know about)!!! The thing to do is find out if other people with the same source water are having sucess using the ks.

Agu

KS for sale

[Doug]

Hi Agu,

Originally posted by Agu
Doug,

You're having my symptoms exactly. If you'd like an explanation of what's happening I'll forward the email that explains the problem I'm having. Notice you're from the midwest also, seems the makeup of our water makes the kold steril unusable.

Agu

Please send me the email if you have the chance. The water out here is really bad at least from what I could tell when I was using the TWP and only getting 50g out of it.

Thanks very much.

Doug