Another DSB - Deep Sand Bottles!

[gpodio]

OK call me crazy, but what do you do with a spare 50lb of live sand and lots of empty water bottles?

Deep Sand Bottles!






This idea came about after several months of having a rubbermaid tub full of live sand on the livingroom floor... I didn't want it in the new display and there was no room for it in the refugium. I figured the water bottles should give me the 4-6" depth required for denitrification and the simplicity of having it in bottles allows me to place them a little everywhere, including in the overflows, pump and skimmer chamber... They are also easy to service or remove if needed at any time. The lids are drilled and I added a cube of sponge in the neck to avoid sand coming out or clogging the holes.

What do you guys think?

[silverwolf72]

With them on there side looks like it's only 2" deep sand bed, so I'm to sure how well this would work in the long run. If you have the room look into doing a remote sand bed.

[gpodio]

Why is that? I mean even with the bottles on their sides, the opening (lid) is still over 6" away from the bottom of the bottle. I don't think oxygen levels are effected by such orientation, I would think the sand at the opposite side of the lid to be just as deprived of oxygen as if the bottles were upright... correct? BTW the sand is nice and tight, there are no pockets of air or water when the bottles are sitting sideways.

I don't really need or have room for a remote DSB which is why I am trying this. It's this or sand for the garden bed :-)

I may actually bring these over to a friend's house for a proper test, they have been in my tank for about 3 weeks, my nitrates have dropped from 10ppm to 0ppm in that timeframe but I cannot attribute that to the bottles as the tank is relatively new (5 months), macros are growing in volume and nitrates have been dropping steadily since cycling the rock. But my friend's tank has a steady 50-80ppm of nitrate, it will be a lot easier to see if they have any effect there than in my tank.

Now if I can find some square or hexigon shaped containers of similar height, I could place them in a honeycomb structure under the rock in the refugium. Would be similar to a regular DSB yet still modular and easy to service or remove...

[Anemonebuff]

Sounds pretty cool, let us know how it works out.

[ludnix]

I would try and use Sequana Distilled Water Bottles. They are square in shape, have a handle on the top and hold 1 gallon worth of sand.

What is the method for allowing flow over the sand bed? Are the bottles just submersed and left as is or is a current ran though them?

In my opinion these would best if they were on having a current ran over the top most layer of sand using something like an aqua lifter.

[gpodio]

They are in the sump, there's a lot of flow there, about 2000gph. As I see it, there is no "flow" required through the sand itself, in a regular DSB there's no flow reaching the sand under the top layer, I figured there's little difference here, perhaps the first sand at the top of the bottle is in a similar situation as sand just under the surface layer in a regular DSB... I've had deep sand buckets and beds before, the main reason to run water over them was to avoid settlement or waste, specially in a remote bucket where there are no critters to clean it up. I'm not sure if that is needed in any way here, as long as there is water flowing around the lids, osmotic pathways should allow water to seep into the deeper layers within the bottles where nitrates can be processed.

I don't think I could fit 1gallon jugs anywhere... mind you this is more of a curious test than anything else, the sand comes from a remote DSB tub I no longer have a need for, it was just a shame to waste so much live sand I figured if I could fit it in the existing system without additional space, pumps or complexities so be it...

Thanks for the feedback!

[scarter]

outside the box, I like it...
trying new things is the only way we get anywhere in this hobby

[Kayak_Guy]

So, you have holes punched in the tops?

I think it would be greatif this works, but I doubt you'll have much success, seems like there isn't much flow.

[eshook]

I think we will all be interested to hear the success / failure of this system in your friends tank. From my understanding of DSB the horizontal / vertical orientation will have no adverse affect assuming the entire bottle is submerged and there is no air in the bottle.

I would say excellent idea overall!

I'll be watching this thread for updates.

[gpodio]

Originally posted by Kayak_Guy
So, you have holes punched in the tops?

I think it would be greatif this works, but I doubt you'll have much success, seems like there isn't much flow.

Yes, I drilled 15 or so holes in each lid.

[on3ofak1nd]

This is an interesting idea.. I like the concept but I am concerned about the amount of water transfer that will occur over time... or flow if you will. I agree there doesnt need to be flow through the sand bed necessarily but there is still a constant amount of water being exchanged and I'm curious as to whether this will still take place with the restriction of the bottle... time will tell. Either way this is an interesting idea.

I wonder what would happen if you created a rack that held the bottles up right instead of floating them and then left the top completely open with the sand 1.5 inches or so from the top. I don't think much sand would escape the bottles this way but it would allow for a large volume of water to be exchanged. I'm not sure if my explaination is adequate, perhaps I'll create an illustration when I get home from work...

[eshook]

I could be misunderstanding the situation, but I don't think this type of flow is necessary or would be particularly beneficial. I used to keep up with the RDSB in a bucket thread and it was decided that at the bottom of a 5 gallon bucket *very* little flow occured regardless of the flow at the top of the bucket.

If you stop and think about it, it makes sense. The first 1-3" will be affected by the flow at the top of the sand, but beyond this layer it will be largely unaffected because of the small amount of waterways between the sand grains to the top of the bucket (or in this case bottle). So I think this technique should be just as effective. Although I would love to see an experiment between the two. It would provide empircal evidence to what seems logical.

[Kayak_Guy]

What about using filter bags?

[gpodio]

What I'm thinking (or hoping..) is that any reduction in flow between the outside of the lid and first layers of sand in the bottle will effect, if anything, aerobic bacteria responsible for nitrification. I would go as far as thinking that this may actually "help" denitrifying bacteria as it may bring the boundry between aerobic and anaerobic regions closer to the surface (the lid that is). How's that for positive thinking! :-)

Wesley, I've been thinking of many different ways to play with this idea. I was actually thinking that if I can keep the bottles upside down, I'd totally eliminate any possibility of waste settling onto the sand. Hopefully someone can help us understand better how water and nutrients naturally flow through deep sandbeds, the size of the bottles may indeed limit natural circulation of nutrients throughout the entire bottle, but I don't believe it's strictly related to the amount of flow accross the surface...

I can certaily envision a honeycomb structure made up of individual containers sitting on the bottom of one's sump, much like a regular DSB only modular. But if I can get these bottles to work that would be great as I can hide many of them here and there, even along the back wall behind some of the rock... :-)

[gpodio]

Well, 4 months have passed and nitrates haven't budged from 0ppm during this whole time, even with the addition of more fish, moving to a heavier feeding routine and reducing water changes to every 2 months, nitrates aren't registering. The only downside so far is my macros in the fuge aren't growing as well or as 'healthy' as before. I do want to keep them growing as they remove more than just nitrates, but overall I have to say I'm pleased with the results these bottles have given me and love the ability to pull them out any time I need to service the sump or refugium!

Unfortunately I wasn't able to try these in a friend's tank where nitrates were constantly very high, the tank was downgraded and there were just too many changes going on to use as a test bench. If anyone else tries this idea let us know how you make out as my tank never really had a big nitrate problem to solve.

[goldmaniac]

that sounds like it's a success, initially. a cautious Congratulations on a new application to an old, trusted method. If you take the lead on this, perfecting the opening access (sponge vs windowscreen vs cheesecloth, etc), you could really truly be the known pioneer.

I just read this thread for the 1st time, so I was able to read the nay-sayers about a new idea and the results at the same time. Whether or not the bottles are responsible to your low nitrate readings, at least it's looking like these bottles could have helped. Further controlled testing might be in order.

2 ideas to further your experiment:

I'd think that open-mouthed bottles would be an improvement. What I mean by 'open-mouthed' is a bottle with an opening the size of the width of the jar, instead of a usual Avian/Poland Spring/Deer Park water bottle that has the standard 1 inch mouth. instead, I"m picturing plastic bottles like a Nalgene bottle, or maybe plastic peanut butter jars. The wider mouths would allow more transfer. Just a thought.

A benefit that I didn't see mentioned was that changing 'old sand' would be much easier. I have a 2" - 3" sand bed in my refugium, it works well. I can stick a finger in the sand and odorless bubbles, nitrogen gas, escape. Awesome. But it's suggested to change sand every 12-16 months. I tend to change half at a time, but it gets messy. With bottles, you could change whatever % of your total DSB you wanted due to the modular-larity of the setup.

kudos.

[WarrenAmy&Maddy]

to assess the validity/OVERALL EFFECTIVENESS of this concept
or to narrow it down - remove the macro for awhile and see where your nitrate levels are then...

otherwise
you will always be wondering which is which - macro or bottled sand ?

and removing your macros in this experiment
is probably not something you are willing to do but if you really want to prove/DISPROVE this idea then at this point it might be the best place to start!



i think its a great idea!
who are you to come along w/ your bottled sand and think you can create some new filtration method???

keep going!
i hope you can prove this to be a valid concept and effective overall... admittedly i like to see people come along and challenge the status quo w/ new ideas or information... not to mention (((IF))) there is any VALIDITY to this idea - one never knows how it might lead into something else...


then it wont be long before
you or someone else will be sellling DESIGNER AQUAFINA bottles of sand at lfs (or on every streetcorner)...

or instead of calling it sand
perhaps call it BOTTLED MIRACLE MUD!... making everyone wonder whats really in it or assuming there is some 'miracle' (filtration ingredient) in a bottle.

there you go "MIRACLE in a BOTTLE"

[Myrddraal]

Thanks for the update, and good idea!

[rond310]

I like this idea and was thinking what if a stand of PVC and eggcrate was used in the sump to elevate the bottle above the water line (like how some people use to elevate the skimmers a little) and you rigged a powerhead, a tee off of the overflow or some other way to get water in the top of the bottle and had smallholes drilled in the bottom to let the water flow slowly through the length of the bottle. Do you guys think this could work??

[gpodio]

Thanks for the ideas. Miracle Bottle does sound nice ;-)

After speaking with a couple other folks who are better than I at chemistry, I'm convinced that nitrate will diffuse into these bottles regardless of the size of the opening due to a process called diffusion. It's the same concept that allows nitrates to reach the deeper layers of a deep sand bed even where there is no actual flow of water occurring. Diffusion causes ions and molecules to be constantly on the move so that they are equally dispersed throught a body of water. As nitrate molecules are removed within the bottles, the drop in osmotic pressure within the bottle would allow nitrate molecules from the surrounding water to diffuse into the bottles as long as the concentration outside the bottles is higher than that inside them... at least this is how the process has been explained to me.

In the past my DSBs were cleaned (I never replace sand honestly) mostly due to waste accumulating in it, something that these bottles prevent. I do see nitrogen gas (assuming it is nitrogen) building up in the bottles which I have now repositioned with the opening facing up a little to allow it to escape, not sure if or when these will require changing... So far the bottles look just as clean on the inside as when I first installed them... so far so good :-)

But ultimately, I have to take out one of my test tanks, fill it with tank water, add some KNO3 and some of the established bottles from my sump. That should help get a clearer picture. I may do that this weekend if time permits. Removing the macros in my main tank could still leave some doubts due to the presence of live rock and macros in the display...

Thanks for the feedback! At least for now we can say they haven't caused any negative effects

[goldmaniac]

water running thru the tubes would provide oxygen, making it an aerobic reaction. Deep sand beds use anaerobic bacteria to turn nitrates into nitrogen.

What you're describing is similar to the priciples of bioBalls. UNLESS you made the flow so incredibly slow that it would keep everything anaerobic.

here's a DIY coil denitrifyer I saw once, 30 ft of coil, and the flow is something like one DROP per second.

http://archive.reefcentral.com/forum...5&pagenumber=1

[goldmaniac]

Self correction - this article says a fast trip is best. but here's the caveat:

From the article:
"Too fast a flow and your tests will show nitrites, as the bacterias have too much O-2 and denitrification isn't taking place. Too slow a drip or flow rate and hydrogen sulfides are produced, giving a rotten-egg smell that indicates trouble to the inhabitants of the reef or fish tank. I have experimented and found that a drip of just under a steady-stream is best."

it's a balancing act when you're working with a certain level of flow. One reason why DSB's are more popular, I'd imagine.

[gpodio]

Originally posted by rond310
I like this idea and was thinking what if a stand of PVC and eggcrate was used in the sump to elevate the bottle above the water line (like how some people use to elevate the skimmers a little) and you rigged a powerhead, a tee off of the overflow or some other way to get water in the top of the bottle and had smallholes drilled in the bottom to let the water flow slowly through the length of the bottle. Do you guys think this could work??

I think this would actually oxygenate the bottle... remember we want little to no flow through a DSB in order to create the anoxic conditions required for denitrification. I guess the flow could be reduced to such a slow rate that all the oxygen is consumed in the first half of the bottle by nitrifying bacteria... kind of like the denitrifying coils and such...

But I still believe flow has little to do with nitrate mobility within the body of water. I may be wrong... I really need to test this in an isolated tank. I'll try my best to do so ASAP. The good thing is that the bottles are now "active" having been in the system for over 4 months, if they work they should start working pretty quickly.

[goldmaniac]

oops

fast DRIP, not fast Trip. hah. sorry

[goldmaniac]

is it anoxic or anaerobic?

or is it anoxic conditions, an environment for anaerobic bacteria..

I don't know. I think my brain is full with Reef Science.