My old list of species to avoid and for the experienced
 

Fish To Be Avoided (fish with incredibly low survivability in aquaria)
Moorish idol
Regal angelfish
Rock beauty
Bicolor angelfish
Genicanthus sp. angelfish
Centropyge multifasciatus
Holacanthus venusta
Most anthias
Clown tang
Clown sweetlips
Pinatus and tiger teira batfish (batavianus)
Orange spotted filefish
Most butterlyfish (except those listed below)
Sharks
Ribbon eels
Cleaner wrasses
Twinspot goby
Sleeper gobies (Valenciennea sp.)
Tilefish
Rays
Bicolor parrotfish
Princess parrotfish
Blue and red parrotfish
Grunts
Anampses spp. wrasses
Leopard wrasses (Macropharyngodon spp.)
Pseodojuloides wrasses
Tassled filefish
Jacks
Drums
Trumpetfish
Remoras
Catalina gobies (coldwater species)
Chambered nautilus

Fish Best Left For Experienced Hobbyists
(finicky nature, parasite prone, specialty feeders, require specialty tanks or threatened species)
Trunkfish (box and cowfish)
Clown and gumdrop gobies (once established a good surviver with less boisterous fish)
Radiata lionfish
Fu manchu lion
Dwarf zebra lion
Anglerfish
Mandarin dragonet
Most large angels
Lamarck’s angelfish
Acanthurus sp. tangs (ich prone)
Kole tang (ich prone)
Chevron tang (ich prone)
Most other tangs except Zebrasoma and Naso sp. (ich prone)
All butterflyfish (except vagabond, longnose, Heniochus, golden, pebbled, Klein’s, lemon, auriga and racoon, which need large tanks)
Sea horses
Seadragons
Pipefish
All anthias
Blue chromis
Wild-caught Bangaii cardinalfish (threatened)
Longnose hawkfish (jumper)
Octopus, especially bluering octopus
Cuttlefish
Porcupine pufferfish (very disease prone)
Fairy wrasses (Paracheilinus and Cirrilabrus spp.)
Dragon wrasse
Red coris wrasse
Red sailfin blenny
Striped blenny
Scooter blenny
Sandhopper
Jawfish (require tanks set up with their needs in mind)
Undulated triggerfish (unless housed by themselves)
Convict tang (very aggressive)

Fish That Require Huge Aquariums (200 gallons or more)
Most groupers (especially panther groupers)
Parrotfish
Snappers
Naso spp. tangs (however, they can be slow growers)
Moray eels (large species)
Garden eels
Soldierfish
Orbi and spade batfish
Twinspot wrasse (Coris aygula) (beginners take special note of this one)
Flounder

Venomous Species
Stonefish
Lionfish
Rabbitfish
Scorpionfish
Coral cats
Frogfish
Anglerfish

Inverts To Be Avoided Or Better Left To Experts
Non-photosynyhetic corals and gorgonids (sun polyps, carnation, devils hand, etc.)
Goniopora sp.
Feather stars
Basket stars
Crown of thorns
Linkia stars (poor survival until acclimated)
Most wild small-polyped scleractinian corals that are not frags
Sea apples
Sea pens
Giant Xenia
Sea slugs and nudibranchs (very few exceptions)
Flame scallop
Anemones (see below)
Bright yellow anemones {dyed; most anemones have no business being in reef aquariums and should be placed in specialty tanks)
Harlequin, clown shrimp (specialty diets)
Camel, mechanical shrimp (not for reefs)
Elegance coral (recent poor survival)
Red serpent starfish
Tubipora musica (organ pipe, usually hacked off from a larger colony)

Keep in mind this was was compiled pretty quickly about 5 years ago. I always intended to organize it better, add scientific names, and perhaps move or remove some borderline species. Someday if I get enough time I will do this, but I thought it could be a help as is until I get the time.

Please remember there will always be exceptions within a species, so just because you've kept a healthy Moorish Idol for the last 2 years, does not mean it shouldn't be on the list. However, with good evidence I have no problems with people contesting fish that they think shouldn't be on the list, or even suggesting something I may have missed.

Frogfish and Anglerfish are Venomous? You sure about that?


"Bright yellow anemones {dyed; most anemones have no business being in reef aquariums and should be placed in specialty tanks)"

Ever dove the Philippines? Yellow Sebaes litter the ocean floor there.

Why should crown o thorns be left to the experts, they're incedibly hardy.

I don't think Frog and Anglers are venomous. However, you left off Blue-ring Octopus in the Venomous catagory. Also, since most, if not all, of the venomous species listed are available to be purchased, it would be a good idea to list what could be expected should you be bit or stung. I.e., a Lionfish will just hurt you, while a Stonefish and Blue-ring will kill you.

[QUOTE]Also, since most, if not all, of the venomous species listed are available to be purchased, it would be a good idea to list what could be expected should you be bit or stung. I.e., a Lionfish will just hurt you, while a Stonefish and Blue-ring will kill you.[/QUOTE]


Excellent, I like that.

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by GreshamH [/i]
[B]Frogfish and Anglerfish are Venomous? You sure about that?


"Bright yellow anemones {dyed; most anemones have no business being in reef aquariums and should be placed in specialty tanks)"

Ever dove the Philippines? Yellow Sebaes litter the ocean floor there. [/B][/QUOTE]



The first one, you have a point. I think I included it because there is a fish in the subfamily that is venomous but I don't even know if it occurs in the aquarium trade.

Yes, yellow sebaes, but they are very light yellow almost white in most cases. What I'm talking about are the Sebaes that used to litter the LFS, very brilliant deep yellow. This was also done with carpet anemones from time to time.

The crown of thorns was put on there as a joke (you had to be there ;)) and I just never took it off. But if you had one it your reeftank I bet you would want it on the list :p

The Bluering is listed in another section as a side not, and thanks for the suggestion about the venomous species.

I'm happy to see some feedback on the list finally, one of these days it'll be more complete/revised/organized. Keep the feedback coming guys, I was starting to lose hope since it seems this section of the forum is somewhat overlooked.

Bleh, this you can't edit after 60 minutes thing is silly, just tried to make some changes to the list. I guess I'll just have to update it on my comp.

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Peter Eichler [/i]
[B]Bleh, this you can't edit after 60 minutes thing is silly, just tried to make some changes to the list. I guess I'll just have to update it on my comp. [/B][/QUOTE]

The mods can edit it. This is an important enough topic so they might be willing to do it.

I don't want to open the usual debate, but following various threads it appears to me that moorish idols, while certainly difficult, have been "successfully" kept quite a lot by advanced aquarists. Perhaps the collection techniques have improved, or the availability of high quality and varied food has increased in the last 5 years. I would humbly suggest that it be moved to the "experienced aquarist" list.
Mike

I've only known of two individuals, both on RC, who were successfull at keeping Moorish Idols. If you ask them, they say they're just lucky.

I think it needs to stay right where it is.

You might want to add a note that says that some of the fish you listed are hardier if you buy them tank-raised, and so may be decent choices for less experienced aquarists under those circumstances.

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by MarkS [/i]
[B]I've only known of two individuals, both on RC, who were successfull at keeping Moorish Idols. If you ask them, they say they're just lucky.

I think it needs to stay right where it is. [/B][/QUOTE]

Agreed, I don't think anyone is swaying me to move that one anytime soon.

As for tank raised, what of those fish I listed are available tank raised? I've heard of captive reared Sleeper gobies, but have yet to see them offered at the LFS or online. Maybe they're out there but I haven't seen them. Perhaps some of the angels have been sucessfully reared, but again have not seen them for sale nor have I seen any of those specific species. Just because I haven't seen it doesn't mean it hasn't happened, so point me to some links if you think I'm wrong.

Just remembered the Gumdrop gobies being captively raised, anyone with experience, are they proving to acclimate to new surroundings better? I can remember getting 30 or so in at a time and having 10 or so survive of those 30 on a few ocassions before I stopped ordering them for the store I managed. Once established they did fine, but those first few days were crucial.

Thanks,
Ike

My debate on this thread is not the species, but where it is posted. Should this be better posted in the beginner forum than the current forum? I disagree with several species(to a point) depending on experience and conditions of tank upkeep etc etc etc etc etc. Please notice many etc's. I take this thread as a please beware statement, rather than a "avoid for the expericenced", but a very much avoid for the new to the hobby. Especially the ones recently "finding nemo".

aaron

I'd have to dissagree with the bicolor angel as being one to avoid. I've had one for over a year and a half that has gone through two moves and has never been sick and has allways been fat, healthy and happy.

I agree that anemones aren't the easiest to keep but they aren't hard if you know what you're doing and have the right setup. I've had my sebae for allmost a year. It was about 5 inches and bleached when I got it, now it is about 16 inches and brown.

I was wondering about the bicolored angel--I have one in my tank and had never heard anything about the difficulty of maintaining one. It has been in my tank for 2 1/2 years. Maybe it is because it is in a 300 gallon tank.

Anyone else want to speak on the Bi color angels behalf? I always had terrible luck with them when I managed the LFS (I put on the blacklist of things not to order rather quickly) as did many other stores and people in my area, perhaps it was some of the sources we were going through... However, I've heard from a lot of other people that they are just too damn difficult to get to eat prepared foods. Which as far as I'm concerned should keep them on the list, even if you guys did get lucky with a specimen that isn't a problem feeder.

mine eats Mysis and a red flake that I got from Brine Shrimp Direct.

It is a rather shy fish who spend much of the time in the rock work. It may be picking on corals but that is a hard one to pin down.

Also keep in mind that I have a 300 gallon tank, which may or may not help out.

I caught the fish in the LFS with an open box to avoid having its barbs caught on the net. It was very healthy when I got it. I was ignorant to the fact that feeding might be an issue. I thought all dwarf angels were OK once acclimated.

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by kstockman [/i]
[B]mine eats Mysis and a red flake that I got from Brine Shrimp Direct.

It is a rather shy fish who spend much of the time in the rock work. It may be picking on corals but that is a hard one to pin down.

Also keep in mind that I have a 300 gallon tank, which may or may not help out.

I caught the fish in the LFS with an open box to avoid having its barbs caught on the net. It was very healthy when I got it. I was ignorant to the fact that feeding might be an issue. I thought all dwarf angels were OK once acclimated. [/B][/QUOTE]


I'd say the fact that he is in a 300 gallon reef helps quite a bit.

If you are redoing your list to repost might just want to put a quick code or note as to why these species are unsuitable - I have kept several with great success over the years that are in your 'advanced' list and there are different challenges with some fish:

Big three I've noted:

1. Poor collection / shipping (thinking of deepwater angels, anthias etc)

2. Obligate/Highly selective feeders (dragonets , filefish etc)


3. Tank size / layout (i.e. jawfish, garden eels, rays, most small sharks)


Interesting list though - a while back people had proposed an unsuitable species list with the idea to eventually cut down on their importation - no idea what the results were.


Just a few to consider adding to your near impossible list that I see imported all too often :

Dendronephyta corals - a.k.a. Cauliflower corals
Studeriotes - a.k.a. Christmas Tree Corals

Garibaldis - possible but need huge tank and serious chiller


Would add Heteractic magnifica to advanced hobbyist only - see these for sale far too often in really bad shape.

Garibaldi are one that I should certainly add. The Xmas tree and Dendronepthya are covered a bit in the first line under the inverts but I should certainly make a more special note as they are some of the more common species that are for sale that just shouldn't be. The list will get better, I just need the time and motivation to make it better. Thanks for the feedback! :)

The list looks great. Are you sure about the Kole tang though? IME they are one of the easier tangs to keep. They are also coprophagous, which is a nice plus.

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by robwsup [/i]
[B]The list looks great. Are you sure about the Kole tang though? IME they are one of the easier tangs to keep. They are also coprophagous, which is a nice plus. [/B][/QUOTE]

They are there because IME they are some of the most ich prone of all the fish commonly kept in aquariums. Once they get past the first few weeks they are very hardy, but prior to that I find them to be ich magnets.

I can see that.