what is all of this dsb crash talk i read?
 

hi randy,

i have 4-5" of southdown in my tank, ive been reading, mostly on dr shimeks forum, about a dsb crashing and releasing some type of gas? this is caused by not keeping the population of critters up in the dsb or something? is any kind of maintanence required to prevent this from happening , such as adding detrivore kits once a year and things along those lines, or is this much to do about nothing? if such an event can occur and wipe out your tank id like to prevent it if i can.but if its nothing to worry about then........

You'll get different opinions from different people. My opinion is, if you've got a DSB, you're shouldn't be wondering IF it's going to crash, but when.

A useful link that changed the way I kept my tank:
[url]http://archive.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=263482&highlight=DSB[/url]

I don't pretend to understand the intricacies of deep sand beds all that much, but I do think they sometimes get blamed for things they didn't do. :D

Beyond that, I don't have any special advice on what to do with them, except to not stir up DSBs.

well thats certainly frightening, i couldnt read anymore =(, so am i to believe from those articles that someday my sand bed will burp and wipe out my entire tank? i would tend to think that many more people would be dropping out of this hobby than what ive read here in the last 8 months..........im starting to think there are just way too many variables and opinions on them in these tanks, ive decided im not going to worry about this one.........hope i dont lose my tank someday =(

I have deep sand beds in my refugia, and I sleep just fine at night. :D

If you're worried about losing your tank, I'd say unmaintained or cheap equipment, extended power outages, or random unpredictable events [tank splits, child throws unknown thing in tank] or aquarist error are far more worrisome and common.

And are not something solved simply by temporary removal of livestock and an afternoon with a wet-dry vac then re-aquascaping + livestock return. It's a long day or weekend of work, but yet I'm not too scared of hard work ... I just try to avoid it when I can :)

i spend alot of time tinkering with my tank, testing this , adding that if it needs it, im pretty much on top of it every spare minute i have , id say if something were to go wrong id notice it within 3 hours or so, water parameters, something dieing etc..........i just cant believe all of this dsb "fill up" ive been reading, its rather disheartening, but i think with heavy maintanence it can be avoided........just my opinion but ive only been doing this 3 months ;)

wasp

Probably the biggest problem with DSB's is that they don't get blamed for what they actually do. Everything in this world from metals, salt mixes, rocks, type of sand, too small of tanks to square tanks - you name it - gets blamed when they don't work.

When the truth would be a whole lot simpler. Read the link that Xx posted. Sand is sand and bacteria are bacteria.

[url]http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/s...2&highlight=DSB[/url]

Link doesn't work right :(

I just copied Xx's link. I think you have to open that link, copy the real address, and then post it. dunno
Try this one.

[url]http://archive.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=263482&highlight=DSB[/url]

Yep Mark, that was it. :)

(mango, mango, mango, mango) :lol:

I kept a DSB in my 55 for 11 years without a problem. Unfortunately, I had to take down that tank and give away the specimens for personal reasons. I know another guy who kept one going for 14 years before having to tear it down for personal reasons. Seems like Borneman and Tullock have had DSB tanks in the teens also. Right now I know a number of people with 5+ year old DSBs in thriving reef tanks.

On the less than successful side, ALL the mature tank wipe outs I've seen in friend's tanks were operator error, loss of a specimen jacking the ammonia up, and long term power failures. (The majority of wipe outs being from the power failures.)

hmmm.........

Were they SPS type corals?

I guess "successful" is in the eye of the beholder and subjective. I've seen pictures of plenty of successful old DBS tank on this forum that would not fit my definition.

hmmm.........

All of the older tanks I know of we're softies and LPS tanks. (Not too many people were doing much with SPS's in the late 80's when those tanks were set up.) I know several SPS tanks with DSBs that are currently over 5 years old.

My 55 wasn't what most would call a reef tank as the corals were mostly octos, but it did house a long tentacle anemone that did extremely well until a heater thermostat hung and drove the temperature into the 90's. (He was the only loss from that episode.)

I'll try to dig up a picture of the 11 year old tank if I can find a link. It was a softie tank and was quite impressive.



On a side note...I didn't realize this was an SPS issue Boomer and you seem to be the first specify that detail.

Unfortunately, Rob's taken the picture off his web site so I can't post it. Here's a link to a thread where he discussed the tank briefly and posted a picture of it on AquaLink. Although, I did get the age wrong.....the tank was operated for [b]16 years.[/b]

The owner was Rob Toonen if you're familiar with him.

[url]http://aqualinkwebforum.com/eve/ubb.x?a=tpc&s=8126047912&f=3556085422&m=4526038422&r=9526038422#9526038422[/url]


If you'll note the date of that thread, these claims have been going around for a number of years now. I've been in this hobby for 15 years now and have seen far too many very old yet very successful tanks to believe in this.

Hi Mutt

I know Rob and the tank. It was mushrooms mostly, a few softies, and one hard coral.

Read some of the threads on DSB's. It's been discussed a lot that there are different "corals" and different systems for these corals.

As a very very general rule. Softies like the high nutrient systems that DSB's provide or at least tolerate it better. SPS types hate it.

One of the semi-decent things about sandbeds is that they often don't tend to crash overnight, they give you ample warning of going south. If you need to clean green off your glass (not white) several times weekly, notice a bit of recession from the bottom up on your SPS, see your coralline is dying...time to plan a weekend of stinky sandbed removal fun.

So now is only considered an issue for SPS tanks????

If coralline die off or excessive nuissance algae growth is considered signs of it as drtango mentions above, that's not happened in the old tanks I've seen.

[B]Probably the biggest problem with DSB's is that they don't get blamed for what they actually do. [/B]

What is the evidence that they've caused a crash of a reef aquarium?

[url]http://archive.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=263482&highlight=DSB[/url]

Wasp,

I have a 6" DSB in my main display tank. It's been up for about a month now, and my Nitrates have dropped from 74ppm to 28 ppm (yesterday) and are still falling daily. Like you, I was worried about the dreaded "DSB crash" but after talking to two marine aquaria authors, (and experts with DSB's,) Robert Fenner and Anthony Calfo, at Wetwebmedia.com, I know that my fears are largly unfounded. They'll tell you that a DSB crash isn't really a DSB crash at all, but rather a user error. While Hydrogen Sulfide gas is produced in the anoxic zone of the DSB, it will stay there, and be converted into something else (the name of the compound escapes me) unless the anoxic region is disturbed. Fenner and Calfo suggest either sand stirring creatures for the bed, like amphipods, copepods etc... or a weekly light stirring of the bed, not to exceed 1 inch in depth. Further, if a Harvard trained bio-chemist like Randy Holmes-Farley has no problem running one, then it's good enough for me personally.... Like all subjects related to marine aquaria, there is always controversy. Some of it is uninformed hysteria, some is real. The trick is to do enough research to understand the difference. Have faith in your DSB. Mine is doing fine so far...

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by hillrc91 [/i]
[B] Like you, I was worried about the dreaded "DSB crash" but after talking to two marine aquaria authors, (and experts with DSB's,) Robert Fenner and Anthony Calfo, at Wetwebmedia.com, I know that my fears are largly unfounded. They'll tell you that a DSB crash isn't really a DSB crash at all, but rather a user error. [/B][/QUOTE]

Richard, it would probably be a lot more helpful if you would ask someone that doesn't have a vested interest in hobby sandbeds. ;)

Of course it's user error, what else could it be. Anyone that uses one and has it not act right is user error. LOL

In case you don't follow what I'm saying. Let's say you bought a car that's being investigated for "roll over". You called the car manufacturer and they told you a roll over isn't really a roll over at all, but rather a user error.

Bomber,

I understand your meaning, however I don't think that their advocation of DSB's is tied to a monetary incentive, which may persuade them to imbellish the facts. They're just marine aquaria enthusiasts, like the ones you find here, sharing their personal experiences and expertise. They give a balanced view of DSB's, and freely discuss the possible con's. Their success with DSB's, along with that of Dr. Shimek, Dr. Goemans, and Dr. Holmes-Farley should provide the novice, and intermediate aquarist (like me) with the confidence to try this approach to nitrate control. When cnofronted with questions about DSB crashes, many of them ask the question: Show me the data which proves that DSB's are prone to failure.... So far, I don't think that the DSB's detractors have made a compelling case. If and when they do, I'll be the first to remove mine.

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by hillrc91 [/i]
[B]Bomber,

I understand your meaning, however I don't think that their advocation of DSB's is tied to a monetary incentive, which may persuade them to imbellish the facts. They're just marine aquaria enthusiasts, like the ones you find here, [/B][/QUOTE]

Reef Invertebrates, An Essential Guide to Selection, Care and Compatibility

AUTHORS: Anthony Calfo & Robert Fenner

“Living Filters� is the title of the first subject, of which has four subtopics - Live Rock; Live Sand; Refugiums: and, Plants and Algae for the Marine Aquarium.



The second subtopic is devoted to ‘Live Sand’ and is also subdivided into numerous subjects, and again not all are mentioned here - Evolution of Live Sand Applications; What is Live Sand; The Impact of Live Sand on Aquarium Water Quality; What Type of Live Sand is Best? Purchasing Live (Wet/Wild) versus Dry Sand; Note: A Word About Packaged “Live� and “Bio-active� Sand Products; Curing Live Sand; Maintaining Live Sand; and, Keeping up with Live Sand…Replenishment. Again, everything you wanted to know about live sand and more!

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by hillrc91 [/i]
[B] Show me the data which proves that DSB's are prone to failure.... [/B][/QUOTE]

We did. All you have to do is open this link and read.

[url]http://archive.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=263482&highlight=DSB[/url]

That thread was not started to prove or disprove DSB's. It was open to anything one way or the other. In spite of the fact that there were literally hundreds of scientific papers describing how marine sediments and bacteria work - no one was able to present anything [b]outside of hobby literature[/b] to say that they don't work that way.

Show me the data that contradicts all those hundreds of papers presented in that thread.

Bomber,

Not to put to fine a point on it, but what is your point?

Re-addressing the first question, Fenner and Calfo freely admit being authors of marine literature... They write books to disseminate their expertise and experiences to other hobbyists. ---Just like many other prominant members in the hobby have done. Julian Sprung is a recognized authority on marine algae identification and control. Because he had the audacity to write a book on algae, does that mean that the information in the book is wrong? Is he somehow now a slave to some evil corporate aquaria entity? Now, I know that the concept of capitalism is strange, and even evil to some, but selling ones knowledge in the form of a book, does not disqualify, or taint the information contained within it. The information isn't a crock of BS just because it's sold commercially.

Secondly, the information contained in that thread you mentioned is primarily focused on the open ocean, not the dynamics of closed aquarium environment, so it's not quite the apples to apples comparison that you seem to think it is.

Third, how do you explain the many people including the moderator of this forum who have been successfully running DSB's for years without a single, solitary, problem?