I don't think its that people are happy that companies like ATI are going to be hurt, I think its the fact that alot of people can now afford to make a purchase on a very nice skimmer at an affordable price. Its just the world we live in man

[QUOTE][i]<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=11521781#post11521781 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by luke33 [/i]
[B] Its just the world we live in man [/B][/QUOTE]
I know. It doesn't make it right, and I dont have to like it. The company I work for has had IP stolen by the Chinese. Seems there is nothing that can be done about it.

Can you confirm the footprint then? I think someone said it was 11.5 " X 13.5 "

[QUOTE][i]<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=11521757#post11521757 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by cmersman [/i]
[B]Got my xtreme 200 this afternoon...fast shipping is for sure...5 minutes to put it together and drop it in the sump. The collection cup removes easily and it is already pulling out some nasty sump just cycling 200 pounds of rock for the new tank that arrives Monday... [/B][/QUOTE]

anything can be copied once the patent runs out.

[QUOTE][i]<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=11521849#post11521849 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by vanillagorila [/i]
[B]anything can be copied once the patent runs out. [/B][/QUOTE]

The problem is that the Chinese aren't waiting for the patent to run out, and no national government seems to enough to do anything about it.

the footprint is 11.5 by 13.5...so far so good its pullin good stuff, the chamber is full of bubbles...should work well on my 225.

It has nothing to do with patents running out. Until the USA and europe decide to do something about Patent infringement inforcement again countries lke China, India. Norh Korea, ect. This will continue in the market place for some time. I really don't have a problem with these skimmers. You get what you pay for. If your into mods and selfhelp, they are great. Marine solutions had very limited information about these skimmers. People still ordered them. ( luke, I hope marine solutions is taking care of you for pimping out there company as much as you do). It seems like the same people are the chearleaders for this product. If they work, great. If they don't.. you get what you paid for.

I actually hope someone clones a cone skimmer. Well over 1k is way too much.

[QUOTE][i]<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=11521632#post11521632 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by sjm817 [/i]
[B]It great how the Chinese knock off everything like Tunze Streams, skimmers etc. I'm sure the cone skimmer wont be far behind. Hopefully, there will sill be companies left around innovating to get their designs ripped off. [/B][/QUOTE]


The KZ revolutions come from Taiwan, cant knock off something that comes from there in the first place!!!

Innovation is a key part of why US and EU mfg's have always kept ahead of the curve with cheap labor. Many asian 'knock-off' companies dont know the first thing about innovation... thats why they just copy everything.

So the the rest of the world has to innovate faster than they can copy... with such a small and slow market like this though... who knows if thats even possible. The ability of smaller mfg's to make fast changes/improvements... and to fill custom design requests is what will keep companies like ATB and ORCA ahead of the curve.

If the dollar keeps dropping though, importing from China may not even make sense... and then buying US made will make more sense again. As China becomes more of a free-market, and standards of living increase (although the communist system does cast some doubt), things from China will no longer be so cheap. Globalization will come full circle at some point and everything evens out in the end.

As far as patents go... there is nothing patented about these skimmers. There were rumors about ATI's threadwheel being patented, but that wasnt true (since they arent even the first anyways). The bubble plate, well, lets just say its Klaus's biggest regret that he never patented it way back when he had the chance. But patenting some of these things, with such a small volume market, only serves to drive the cost up quickly, and just having a patent doesnt mean thats it. You have to take someone to court to actually enforce it, and even at that, you may or may not win. Patents that are very simple, like the whole 'cone body' would most likely be lost all together if it went to court. Expert testimony would result in the finding that cone shape body skimmers have been around long before KZ came up with it. And which do you think looks better in that situation? To have a patent that you can at least threaten people with, or to lose it all together?

I doubt there will be any technology with skimming that will be patentable any time soon, if ever. I wouldnt even consider my 'bubble sphere' something to patent, as innovative as it might be... its just not worth it. Hooking up a peltier system to a skimmer to give the body a static charge might be something rather radical though... if its proven to work. According to some like Klaus, this is important.

[QUOTE][i]<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=11521420#post11521420 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by luke33 [/i]
[B]Dude, its on a rocky sand bed ; ) [/B][/QUOTE]

DOH, Good call Luke. :lol:

As far as knock off products coming along and putting innovators out of business....Do you actually think skimmers are worth $800+ dollars?? Don't you understand that these innovators are raking us over the coals to get every dollar they can while their latest innovation or fad is hot. I'm all for paying for a quality product but geez these are relatively simple to produce and the price they sell them for versus the cost of materials is outrageous.

Putting a product to market is more than simple manufacturing costs. There are also R&D costs...unless you dont need to do any R&D. Thats like complaining about the cost of a software program or movie because it costs nothing to make a CD/DVD.

[QUOTE][i]<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=11521741#post11521741 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by sjm817 [/i]
[B]I get a little discouraged when people are all "happy" about innovators being put of of business when their designs are basically stolen. Who will be left to innovate? [/B][/QUOTE] Well when these "innovators" charge an arm and leg for a simple skimmer, it hard to feel sorry for them.

You still have to take into account the money it takes to develop and design the product. Research and Development aren't cheap. They try and make that money, but the high costs, knowing that it is just a matter of time before someone copies it, and stops their sales.

Once I see how the 160 works, I'm going to order one as well.

[QUOTE][i]<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=11522478#post11522478 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by sjm817 [/i]
[B]Putting a product to market is more than simple manufacturing costs. There are also R&D costs...unless you dont need to do any R&D. Thats like complaining about the cost of a software program or movie because it costs nothing to make a CD/DVD. [/B][/QUOTE]

Sure...do you really think the R&D costs a lot? You do understand that the people on forums like these that are modding their skimmers are probably doing at least 50% of that R%D?

And I suppose you think a music CD is worth $15-$20?

[QUOTE][i]<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=11522579#post11522579 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by dedfish [/i]
[B]Sure...do you really think the R&D costs a lot? You do understand that the people on forums like these that are modding their skimmers are probably doing at least 50% of that R%D?

And I suppose you think a music CD is worth $15-$20? [/B][/QUOTE]

and i suppose you think a monet painting is worth how much? the value of art is up to that of the viewer/buyer. many cd's are worth $20+

you must not be familiar with machining, tooling, distribution and customer support costs... skimmers arent cheap.

try and build yourself a deltec or BK, and see how much time it takes and how much $$ it will cost in materials.

All valid points and all but....

let's get back on topic.

cmersman.... Think you might be able to post some pics of the skimmer in action? I know they posted the ones on Marine solutions site, but how about some in a reefers tank too!

i agree with material costs is high....acrylic tubing aint cheap at all.....and some of the high end manufacturers use expensive machinery to cut thier pieces....which will add to the cost...

its all very purdy and works well....but i cant afford it so ill just stick with the cheaper materials and diy it to work for me.


but yea...pics please!

[QUOTE]But patenting some of these things, with such a small volume market, only serves to drive the cost up quickly, and just having a patent doesnt mean thats it. You have to take someone to court to actually enforce it, and even at that, you may or may not win. Patents that are very simple, like the whole 'cone body' would most likely be lost all together if it went to court. Expert testimony would result in the finding that cone shape body skimmers have been around long before KZ came up with it. And which do you think looks better in that situation? To have a patent that you can at least threaten people with, or to lose it all together?[/QUOTE]

As a patent attorney, I'm very curious what your basis for this is. Juries and courts alike are far from predictable....I cant give out legal advice, but your logic is all over the place, you are confusing obviousness and anticipation. The fact everyone else copies it after you do it, is in fact evidence, its not obvious. There are tons of patents on things that seem "simple" after the fact.

My 200 is still showing preorder on the site, anyone else getting this on their skimmer or has everyone elses been shipped???

Anyway, I have and ATi 200 on my display tank, the new octopus extreme 150 and I ordered the msx200, I think it is great to have other options at affordable prices.

We'll see how they perform in comparison

What I think is funny is that the ATi was considered a low cost alternative for it performance in comparison to its price before all the price hikes.

Oh how the tables turn so fast.

[QUOTE][i]<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=11523661#post11523661 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by BLANKENSHIP76 [/i]
[B]My 200 is still showing preorder on the site, anyone else getting this on their skimmer or has everyone elses been shipped???[/B][/QUOTE]

When did you place your order? Rob said that they were shipping according to when orders were placed.

[violation]

Yea, lets please take this patent crap offline as i've heard it one to many times.

Lets see some pics!

But what i really want to see is the pic of an air meter attached to the sicce!