A question for the advanced SPs keepers
 

Ok here we go............ I have been into the hobby for some time and my reef keeping skills have sharpened over the past couple of years.But I have been noticing a decline in some of my Sps what I mean by this is they are doing well but just do not have that popping Wow color affect that I see in most tanks. I have changed my light 5 times so fare from 250 Watts 10k bulbs 14k bulbs 13k mega chrome bulbs still it was not enough.

Then I went to 400 watts 10k ushio and I must say that the bulb give off great growth but the color is horrible. Then I went to a 20k XM and the Sps did color up a lot but still no were near what I see around here. I also have 150 watts of VHO actincs as well that’s 550watts total. The light starts of like this 9:00 a.m. actinics come on and go off at 10:00pm. The halide comes on at 12:00p.m. and goes of at 9:00p.m. the tank is 30x30x31 high and most all corals are mid way in the tank as you can seee from the Photograph. So I have been testing my water like crazy and this is what I have from last night readings.

The tank is a barebottom system and there is no RDSB or refugium. I have a large skimmer a MRC MR2 single becket that I run medium not to dry and not to wet. I have 4 huge chromis the size od half dollars one rabbit fish that is on the medium size and one royal grammer. I feed them 3 to 4 times a day. I change out 5 gallons of water weekly with a combination of reefcrystals and oceanic sea salt. I also have been dosing randys two part with a reef dosing pump that works great.

It comes out to 172.8 Ml a day from the calcium side and the alkalinity side to keep the Alk/Calcium just were I want it. The tank has well over a 100lbs of live rock that is covered in pink /purple coralline algae and the back wall and left side is covered as well. So what the heck am I doing wrong? I have never test for phosphates and was thinking could high phosphates be the single cause of color loss? I have also been using kent marine carbon and Seachem Purigen Filter Media. I was thinking should I just use a phosphate remover on a normal basis just in case? Well I have given all the information that I could any suggestion would be greatly appreciated.


Calcium 480
Magnesium 1500 this is high because I have been adding Tech m to kill of the bryopsis
Alk/dkh 9.0
Salinity 1.026
Temperature 74 degrees only because it is winter and the heater just can’t keep it higher
Nitrate 0 there are no trace of it in the tank don’t ask me how but there is none.
Nitrite 0
Ammonia 0

Thanks
Michael


[IMG]http://reefcentral.com/gallery/data/500/42064mini-RIMG0001.JPG [/IMG]
[IMG]http://reefcentral.com/gallery/data/500/420643333.JPG [/IMG]
[IMG]http://reefcentral.com/gallery/data/500/42064mini-1052007__22_.JPG [/IMG]
This picture is to show you high high the light is from the tank.
[IMG]http://reefcentral.com/gallery/data/500/42064mini-1052007__24_.JPG [/IMG]
[IMG]http://reefcentral.com/gallery/data/500/42064mini-1052007__7_.JPG[/IMG]
Skimmer picture
[IMG]http://reefcentral.com/gallery/data/500/42064foam1-med.JPG [/IMG]

It very well could be phosphates. Feeding 3-4 times a day could add alot of phosphate to the water. I would definately get it tested.

If you have algae, there is phosphate present. Testing is useless... I've had worse bryopsis than yours and my pricey hach kit reads zilch.

Skim wetter. Increase flow. Run GFO (carefully). Make sure you do not have areas in your tank where detritus is building up and breaking down (check your sump and overflow too). Consider removing mechanical filtration such as filter socks and reduce feeding.

I've been having minor algae trouble with my BB tank the last six months... turned out to be excess detritus hidden beneath the rock and a miscalibrated refractometer (off by 0.004). I drilled holes into my rock and raised it about a half inch off the tank floor using acrylic rods. No more detritus piles!

BB tanks are pretty unforgiving, but easy to correct because problems don't have many places to hide. Take advantage of that.

I can tell you from experience that as soon as you control your phosphates the algae will turn white and go away very quickly.

nutrient problem, RDSB and GFO will help. nitrates are zero because of nitrogen fixation by the algaes. jmo.

I agree with all the above statements. You need to get the nutiant problem taken care of. The algae would not be growing if it wasn't present.

Either add refugium or phosban reactor

I would also agree with running a p04 reactor of some kind. I try to keep mine between 0.02-0.03 (hanna). Also I keep my salinity at 1.023 that seem to help my colors when I lower it. The only other thing I can think of is your source water has a high tds reading and that can also be feeding the bryopsis. I had the same issue as you did when my ro/di need to be serviced once I did the tanks turned around.

i say get another heater, 74 is too cool imo

color is directly related to growth (growth tips are the mot colorful) and you won't be getting as much growth in cold water.

i personally think phosphates are over blown as a cause of color loss.

In my sps tank my colors weren't all that great when I had a small fish load, added a few more fish and fed more and the colors greatly improved. Doesn't everyone say that best food for sps is fish poo?

that is what I feed my SPS

[QUOTE][i]<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=11346549#post11346549 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by bradleyj [/i]
[B]It very well could be phosphates. Feeding 3-4 times a day could add alot of phosphate to the water. I would definately get it tested. [/B][/QUOTE]

That was my first thought when he mentioned Bypropsis!

I think you are overfeeding FWIW.

My glass cruds up in 3 days. I have to feed sort of heavily. I'm pretty sure my phosphates are not zero and my corals are very colorful. I've never run phosphate removal material and I use an ASM G3 skimmer which many feel is underrated for an 180 gallon tank. I do have a refugium but it isn't big.

i find myself thinking just like you - how do you take your tank to that next level - and was even thinking about starting a similar thread, but then looking at your corals (and mine) and i think they look happy and healthy. you have good PE and they appear to have growth tips in many directions. i think we both have that old "greener grass" syndrome
i would raise your temp a bit and maybe a bit of cheato run on an alternate lighting schedule to help stabilize pH and help with nutrient export but i think overall your corals look nice.
i really don't know what it takes to go that next step but have decided just to stick with the basics: good water, flow, and light and give it time. i will be following along to see others thoughts on this but in the end i think maybe what we need is to ask santa for a better camera and a good photoshop program for christmas ;)

Is the bryopsis growing on your rocks?

How much, exactly, do you feed?

Have any white-balance corrected photos?

Considered sending in a single sample to aquariumwatertesting.com ?

Didn't realize I didn't finish my thought. I don't think it is always cut and dry. I know people with low phosphates with issues. I think having a good balance in the system is the key. I don't know if it is the key for me, but I think my Xenia definetly helps me. I'm considering moving it to a sump to let it grow. When my water changes are 2 or 3 months behind, my xenia population explodes. Color and growth stay the same. However, when I keep up on my water change schedule, growth is minimal.

Michael, to be honest, I think your tank looks great. I see nothing wrong with the colors of your corals. Sometimes one coral is going to be more colorful in someone else's tank, while at the same time another coral will be more colorful in yours. You can't have it all. From your pictures, I think your coral colors look just fine. And I will also go AGAINST the grain of the majority in this thread. The trend over the past few years is to stock less, feed less, export more, etc. etc. Doesn't anyone else notice that on average, people's corals are lighter in color. Quit worrying about that little patch of bryopsis that is growing even though you already have 0 phosphates. Go look in the ocean on a beautiful coral reef and guess what you will see... algae!!!! It is a normal part of our ecosystems and a little bit is not hurting anything. It sounds to me like your tank could be understocked a hair. Even though you are feeding several times per day, I bet the portions are very very small. I've seen some barebottom tanks that I would consider overstocked and overfed and let me tell you, the colors were out of this world. Extreme low nutrients does not necessarily equal better color, which seems to be the common train of though these days. Maybe let your tank get a little "dirty" sometime and see what happens......

[QUOTE][i]<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=11361883#post11361883 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Travis [/i]
[B]Michael, to be honest, I think your tank looks great. I see nothing wrong with the colors of your corals. Sometimes one coral is going to be more colorful in someone else's tank, while at the same time another coral will be more colorful in yours. You can't have it all. From your pictures, I think your coral colors look just fine. And I will also go AGAINST the grain of the majority in this thread. The trend over the past few years is to stock less, feed less, export more, etc. etc. Doesn't anyone else notice that on average, people's corals are lighter in color. Quit worrying about that little patch of bryopsis that is growing even though you already have 0 phosphates. Go look in the ocean on a beautiful coral reef and guess what you will see... algae!!!! It is a normal part of our ecosystems and a little bit is not hurting anything. It sounds to me like your tank could be understocked a hair. Even though you are feeding several times per day, I bet the portions are very very small. I've seen some barebottom tanks that I would consider overstocked and overfed and let me tell you, the colors were out of this world. Extreme low nutrients does not necessarily equal better color, which seems to be the common train of though these days. Maybe let your tank get a little "dirty" sometime and see what happens...... [/B][/QUOTE]


So true.... for a long time I struggled with poor colors in my SPS colonies... I only kept a few fish, rarely fed.. "CLEAN CLEAN CLEAN!!"... UGH!

Now I feed 6 cubes a day to my 12 fish in my 90g (trying to get more) and the color and PE on my SPS is the best it's ever been.

Consider getting more flow in to your tank....

[QUOTE]So true.... for a long time I struggled with poor colors in my SPS colonies... I only kept a few fish, rarely fed.. "CLEAN CLEAN CLEAN!!"... UGH!

Now I feed 6 cubes a day to my 12 fish in my 90g (trying to get more) and the color and PE on my SPS is the best it's ever been.[/QUOTE]

Okay you have my attention. 6 cubes a day in a 90 gallon??? Do you have your BM250 on this tank by any chance?

King-Kong
[QUOTE]Is the bryopsis growing on your rocks?[/QUOTE]
yes two pieces only for now
[QUOTE]How much, exactly, do you feed? [/QUOTE]
flake food thru out the day about the size of a dime and the same thickness.
[QUOTE]Have any white-balance corrected photos?[/QUOTE]
I will try and take some
[QUOTE]Considered sending in a single sample to aquariumwatertesting.com ?[/QUOTE]
I will try at the end of the month when funds are available

Lobster
[QUOTE]I can tell you from experience that as soon as you control your phosphates the algae will turn white and go away very quickly.[/QUOTE]
How much GFO and what brand do you recomend?
Travis



[QUOTE]Michael, to be honest, I think your tank looks great. I see nothing wrong with the colors of your corals. Sometimes one coral is going to be more colorful in someone else's tank, while at the same time another coral will be more colorful in yours. You can't have it all. From your pictures, I think your coral colors look just fine. And I will also go AGAINST the grain of the majority in this thread. The trend over the past few years is to stock less, feed less, export more, etc. etc. Doesn't anyone else notice that on average, people's corals are lighter in color. Quit worrying about that little patch of bryopsis that is growing even though you already have 0 phosphates. Go look in the ocean on a beautiful coral reef and guess what you will see... algae!!!! It is a normal part of our ecosystems and a little bit is not hurting anything. It sounds to me like your tank could be understocked a hair. Even though you are feeding several times per day, I bet the portions are very very small. I've seen some barebottom tanks that I would consider overstocked and overfed and let me tell you, the colors were out of this world. Extreme low nutrients does not necessarily equal better color, which seems to be the common train of though these days. Maybe let your tank get a little "dirty" sometime and see what happens......[/QUOTE]

Thanks for your kind words

johnanddawn
[QUOTE]i think maybe what we need is to ask santa for a better camera and a good photoshop program for christmas [/QUOTE]

I am starting to think that this is more true then most belive.
thanks everyone lets see what happens in the next few weeks.
Michael

[QUOTE][i]<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=11363445#post11363445 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Canarygirl [/i]
[B]Okay you have my attention. 6 cubes a day in a 90 gallon??? Do you have your BM250 on this tank by any chance? [/B][/QUOTE]

Yeah, it is :)

and with this scheme, I dont think there's really any limitation to what I cant export. I could probably do 12 cubes a day, if I had enough fish to eat that much.

As is, I keep all of my fish with full stomachs as often as I can.... if you ever see fish out on the reef, youll notice one thing: THEY ARE ALL FAT! :)

[sigh....] I need a bigger skimmer.....

74 is not a big deal at all, in the wild tropics it isn't uncommon for the water to dip below that temp.

Maybe add in a little extra clean up crew like some blue legged hermits to help keep that algae in check.

[quote]they are doing well but just do not have that popping Wow color affect that I see in most tanks.[/quote]

Are these tanks you see on the internet or in person? If on the net, quit worrying. A lot can be done with good photos, top down shots & macro shots.

Good color is very subjective.........some like the pastel look & others like the deeper colors. Anyone that thinks they can have it both ways is full of it. Not sure what your preference is but that would go a long way into figuring out what to do with your system.

Some corals just look better in one system over another. If a piece won't color up for you get rid of it. I have pieces that look great in my tank & my friend got rid of the same piece cause he couldn't get the same colors. This has gone both ways, btw.