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-   -   Designing a monster (http://archive.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1270964)

hahnmeister 12/17/2007 04:18 PM

Id do Tunzes as well... if you plan them in at this stage, you can have baffles arranged like fake overflows to hide the tunzes inside. All you need is the hole size to match up with the tunze outlet so you can just plug the tunze right in. It makes the tunzes pretty much their own little closed loop, but much simpler to clean and much more effective/efficient. You could put a box in each corner, maybe one in the center as well, and have 3 tunzes in each one or something... this would give massive flow. concentrating their outputs into two or three points will provide more flow than if you put individual pumps all around the tank blowing this way and that...

Ill try to find some 'example tanks' of people who have done the hidden tunze baffles if I can...

dogstar74 12/17/2007 04:49 PM

Here's the link to get an estimate for an A.G.E. Tank. Seriously, look into it. I think you'll be happy you did. There are several people on these threads that have used them, and they are a beautiful tank.

[url]http://www.acrylicandglassexhibits.com/[/url]

Harleyguy 12/17/2007 05:02 PM

[QUOTE][i]<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=11397829#post11397829 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by spazz [/i]
[B]this is the big benifit to using the tunze streams. there adjustable so you can make the flow what ever you want. if you tanks flow needs change you can increase the flow with the controller. the bigger your corals get the more flow you actually need in the tank to push the water around the corals. you can hide anything in your tank with a little creative work.
it really depends on how your tank is set up and where your overflows are located. false pannels thatare covered by live rock can house the tunze streams and still make then accessable to maintain them.

can you post a drawing of what you would like your tank to look like and where your overflow will be located. i now you want to use glass for your tank. it just depends on where you want you overflow(s) to be. [/B][/QUOTE]

This is what I was thinking...
[IMG]http://reefcentral.com/gallery/data/500/64663PLAN2_tank_with_holes-med.GIF [/IMG]

I would love to see some pictures of a tank with Tunze streams hidden in the live rock...

I have been reading a little about the Tunze products. I assume that I would go with 4 streams. does Tunze have anything that wil do more than 4? Which streams would I do? I starting to get the picture that this is what I should do, but I'm still not completely sold....yet.

My thought was to drill 5 holes in the back of the tank and 3 in the side, then use 2 Oceanmotion 4 ways, one for CL and one for return.

Harleyguy 12/18/2007 12:02 AM

After loads of reading I am taking everyone’s advise and have decided to go with 4 6200's and a controller, along with two 4 way oceansmotions with about 8-9000 gallons of return flow. This should give me a max flow of about 30,000 Gph (think it will be enough). I also think that the water pattern should be chaotic and have few or no dead spots. Along with the flow I have decided to go with 8 Lumenarc III reflectors with 14K 400w Aquaconnect bulbs. With this in mind is 400w going to be enough for a tank this deep?

I'm also surprised that no one gave me an opinion on my updated hole design... I figure I will be able to place at least 2 Tunzes in the island that will be to the left front (if viewing from the front).

hahnmeister 12/18/2007 12:58 AM

1000g+? Im a little nuts, but Id go a bit higher... like 8x 6200's. If you make 'fake overflows' in the two back corners of the tank, each about 8"x10" each with 4 holes to pop the tunzes into, you can have two tunzes facing front in each box, and two facing to each side. Then, the flow can alternate between the two front facing tunzes in one box and the two side facing ones in the other at once... to the other 4 tunzes and back again. In this manner, with a long enough delay between switching, the tank will have a gyre effect... the flow in the entire tank will spin one way for a minute or two, and then the other way. By aiming the powerheads so they work together, you can achieve a whole that is greater than the sum of the parts.

The Aquaconnect 400's are a fine choice.

Ill have to look around for examples of what I mentioned about the Tunzes behind a false wall... I know they are around here, just have to go out and hunt for them.

You know, I bet it would just be easier to post a thread asking for people with them to post pics.

One I do know of is Iwan's. His Tunzes are hidden by special reef ceramic rocks. They are rocks shaped like mountains, and in the tops where they are close to the surface, there is a little box made of rock that holds the tunze in place. This is pretty cool because from the front of the tank, you cant even see the outlets of the pumps unless you look at odd angles. Heck, even the overflow is almost completely hidden...
[url]http://www.hausriff.ch/4534/156972.html[/url]

tanya72806 12/18/2007 07:39 AM

Sounds nice cant wait for it to come together

hahnmeister 12/18/2007 04:25 PM

Oh, and on the return pumps, you shouldnt need more than a hammerhead or 'cuda on there... you only need 1.5-2x the main tank volume per hour going through the sump/skimmer. Save the cost, wattage, flow, etc for the flow in the main tank.

Here is a diagram of the tunze boxes I was talking about...
[IMG]http://i90.photobucket.com/albums/k278/wetworx101/tunzeboxespeg.jpg[/IMG]

Much easier, safer, and effective than plumbing closed loops. The boxes could even be removable (like large waveboxes), clamped to the side walls or something, because they arent overflows or anything that has to be sealed. One tunze controller can run 8 pumps with two Y-adapters (7092.340).

Harleyguy 12/18/2007 05:20 PM

I understand your Idea, but there is a problem. My tank is going to be viewable from 2 sides (the front and the left side). So the box on the left, in the above picture would be on a viewable side, I saw on Tunzes web-site they sell rocks to put the Tunzes into, I was thinking that by using them I couple place a couple of streams in the center island of rock, facing the Tunzes and 4 ways that will be next to the glass.

hahnmeister 12/18/2007 05:31 PM

Does it have to be the entire left side for viewing? The box could be just 6" thick. A box could be put into the center as well. Or, heck, your 'coast to coast' could be cut short on the ends, and instead have the boxes with their own dedicated external section on the back of the tank. Or, like you said, tunze-rocks. Also look into the Reef Ceramics, that is how Iwan did his. I like them because the tunze gets placed up high, on top of a rock rather than under one. This makes it alot easier to get at for cleaning, and alot easier for arranging in the tank.

You could have Reef Ceramic pillars that would have compartments inside for honding streams. Then you could mix the pumps right in with your liverock, but be able to get them out easily (for cleaning, which you will want to do every few months).

ricks 12/18/2007 05:43 PM

Tunze are great for flow and lots of it... You will not want them where anything will be growing. They will blow the flesh of corals, I would say up to 2-3 feet for 6200. They also need to be cleaned regularly, so you need easy access. I've had problems with the pump placement and have had to move them several times. Due to coral growing into the flow stream.

Great looking plans can't wait for the final photo's..

hahnmeister 12/18/2007 05:49 PM

Right, but if you have tunzes right in the rock(s) where the corals are, they can be aimed across the tank at the other rock with tunzes inside blowing back at it. So you can put them where everything will be growing. I didnt mean put the tunzes in the rock and face them at the rocks they are in... that would be kind of hard to do...

ricks 12/18/2007 06:04 PM

As long as the rocks are no closer than 2'-3', and nothing is going to grow in front of them.. If you aim them at each other won't that be counter productive in water movement. I'm not a rocket scientist but the energy expelled by the currents colliding would lesson the flow???

Harleyguy 12/18/2007 06:14 PM

An artist I am not, so hold you laughs for later... This is my thought, I will put 4 Tunzes in, two of them in the island and two against the back wall (all in the Tunze ceramic rocks) all aimed in suck a way as to give me a directional flow. Later on (if the 30000 Gph flow I will have isn't enough) I can add 4 more facing the opposite direction giving me the alternating currents.
[IMG]http://reefcentral.com/gallery/data/500/64663tank_flow-med.GIF[/IMG]

Harleyguy 12/18/2007 06:17 PM

I almost forgot the Oceansmotions holes will be staggered with one set being placed 12 from the bottom of the tank and the other set being at 24 inches. One Oceansmotions is represented in Blue the other in Red

Harleyguy 12/18/2007 06:24 PM

I was also just thinking I could even put 45deg elbows on some of the OM's and get the alternation flow....

ricks 12/18/2007 06:56 PM

Tunze are great pumps you looking at the 6200? Also Roger from Tunze stands behind there products.

Just don't forget they are attached to power cords.

Also SPS love flow, just not direct. I ran into this problem several times.

Harleyguy 12/18/2007 07:18 PM

I was thinking 4x 6200's They just seem like the better deal, for the difference I would pay for the 6300's I would almost be able to buy 3 more 6200's. My plan is to have the streams pointed into open water or firing at a rock formation that will be at least 3 feet away, so I' think I'll be OK. As I stated before I should have around 30K Gph of flow shouldn’t that be plenty for SPS? If not I will add 4 more 6200's at a latter date giving me an addition 20K of flow and if that's not enough I'm screwed...LOL

ricks 12/18/2007 07:38 PM

We won't let any screwing happen. I think the design is the most fun. You got all it will take to make a successful system, Money, money and more money.... Who wants a Viper anyway.

Make sure you get the new 6201's they don't have a separate transformer. And cut every other tooth from the intake grill. You will achieve more flow. And they won't plug up with gunk as fast. Remember if they are on a controller only half will be working so your total flow rate will be the same..

Harleyguy 12/18/2007 07:56 PM

Thanks Ricks, so with that said should I just bight the bullet and get the 6301's? It would be about 8K Gph more flow but it is almost $1400 more (for 4), seems kind of pricey to me.

ricks 12/18/2007 08:07 PM

I just talked to Roger at Tunze about that today. He said they don't recommend them for systems with fish under 4". I also talked about cutting the grill on my 6200/6201 I have (4) 6200 and bought (2) more 6201. Can increase the flow close to 6301. Myself I would stay with the 6201. They kick a s s in my 500 and supply plenty of flow across 8'. Your looking at around 2,300.00 for (4) with multicontroller..

spazz 12/18/2007 08:19 PM

if you wanted to have cheap flow behind the rock work you might consider the 6000 tunzes. there cheap and dont require the controller. you can turn them on(using a timer) for 6 hrs in the morning and 6 hrs in the evening. this would be like high tide in the morning and evening.
these would go great with the 6201's
you dont need alot of flow through the sump. 2500gph would be just fine to the sump. its enough to get the desolved oganics to the skimmer and then on to the sump. if you build a skimmer make sure its big enough to handle all the water comming out of the overflow box. that way all the water is skimmed all the time. you get the best skimming that way.
energy has about 2500 gph going to his skimmer and his tanks is alot bigger than your tank will be. the key is the size of the skimmer and its ability to skim all that water effeciently. your skimmer should hold between 5-8% of your total system volume. so if you have a 1200g tank and a 300g sump your skimmer would have to hold between 70 to 120 gallons.

the 8 luminarc reflectors will be fine for that tank with 400w bulbs. 400watters are good to 4 ft deep. the 14 k bulbs are a good place to start. they give you the best of both worlds and a fairly good par rating.

hahnmeister 12/18/2007 08:50 PM

[QUOTE][i]<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=11413009#post11413009 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by ricks [/i]
[B]As long as the rocks are no closer than 2'-3', and nothing is going to grow in front of them.. If you aim them at each other won't that be counter productive in water movement. I'm not a rocket scientist but the energy expelled by the currents colliding would lesson the flow??? [/B][/QUOTE]

They could alternate back and forth with the controller.

ricks 12/18/2007 08:55 PM

DOH!!!! Did I mention I went to public school???

hahnmeister 12/18/2007 09:03 PM

[QUOTE][i]<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=11413978#post11413978 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by spazz [/i]
[B]if you wanted to have cheap flow behind the rock work you might consider the 6000 tunzes. there cheap and dont require the controller. you can turn them on(using a timer) for 6 hrs in the morning and 6 hrs in the evening. this would be like high tide in the morning and evening.
these would go great with the 6201's
you dont need alot of flow through the sump. 2500gph would be just fine to the sump. its enough to get the desolved oganics to the skimmer and then on to the sump. if you build a skimmer make sure its big enough to handle all the water comming out of the overflow box. that way all the water is skimmed all the time. you get the best skimming that way.
energy has about 2500 gph going to his skimmer and his tanks is alot bigger than your tank will be. the key is the size of the skimmer and its ability to skim all that water effeciently. your skimmer should hold between 5-8% of your total system volume. so if you have a 1200g tank and a 300g sump your skimmer would have to hold between 70 to 120 gallons.

the 8 luminarc reflectors will be fine for that tank with 400w bulbs. 400watters are good to 4 ft deep. the 14 k bulbs are a good place to start. they give you the best of both worlds and a fairly good par rating. [/B][/QUOTE]

In general, I agree with you, but there is more than one way to skin the skimming cat. I dont think having to hold 5-8% of the system volume is a statistic that is needed. As it turns out, yes, for a 120 second dwell time in a skimmer that is fed 1.5-2x the system volume per hour, that does mean about a 6-7% volume, but there are other ways. Id say that the air throughput of the skimmer can modify that 'ideal' a bit, and in the case of your Volcano or other Dart driven needlewheels, alot of the space is due to the water output (resulting in turbulence) the the Dart makes. If it wasnt for all the water turbulence that the dart makes, the Volcano could be 12" diameter rather than 18"... and I dont think that would make it any less effective despite being 1/2 the volume, right? A Laguna 2400 threadwheel making just as much air, but only moving 1/2 the water for instance...

Not trying to argue, but I think a 70-120g capacity skimmer is a bit overkill (although very Volcano).

Harleyguy 12/18/2007 09:14 PM

[QUOTE][i]<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=11413978#post11413978 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by spazz [/i]
[B]if you wanted to have cheap flow behind the rock work you might consider the 6000 tunzes. there cheap and dont require the controller. you can turn them on(using a timer) for 6 hrs in the morning and 6 hrs in the evening. this would be like high tide in the morning and evening.
these would go great with the 6201's
you dont need alot of flow through the sump. 2500gph would be just fine to the sump. its enough to get the desolved oganics to the skimmer and then on to the sump. if you build a skimmer make sure its big enough to handle all the water comming out of the overflow box. that way all the water is skimmed all the time. you get the best skimming that way.
energy has about 2500 gph going to his skimmer and his tanks is alot bigger than your tank will be. the key is the size of the skimmer and its ability to skim all that water effeciently. your skimmer should hold between 5-8% of your total system volume. so if you have a 1200g tank and a 300g sump your skimmer would have to hold between 70 to 120 gallons.

the 8 luminarc reflectors will be fine for that tank with 400w bulbs. 400watters are good to 4 ft deep. the 14 k bulbs are a good place to start. they give you the best of both worlds and a fairly good par rating. [/B][/QUOTE]

Thanks Spazz,
My only thought about having "only" 2500 Gph going to the sump/skimmer is flow in the tank. I know flow is going to be an issue, and I'm trying to get as much as I can. My thought was to have about 4500 Gph going to the sump and another 4500 going to a closed loop. Both returning via there own OM 4 way. I know I can get more flow using less Wattage with Tunze, but I really don't want 8 (bulky looking) Tunze's that have to maintain all over my tank. My thought was to have a nice mix.
My Skimmer is going to be gravity fed form a 2" drain. The water will fall about 15 feet to the skimmer. My plan is to build my own skimmer, but I am also considering just buying a MRC MR-9 it's rated at 2150 Gallons and it's only $1100 it has a 16x12x12 box 8" OD first riser and 3.5" OD second (with 2 injectors).


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