why do biowheels need to be removed?

[teknopanda]

i have a ten gallon eclipse currently housing a baby octo. it will be moved to a larger tank as it grows. i also have a peacock mantis in a 6 gallon eclipse system. i have always heard that the bio wheels need to be removed. why is this the case?

[MarkS]

Because they convert ammonia to nitrite to nitrate and stop. This causes a countinues build up of nitrates.

Live rock/live sand does the same thing, but then converts the nitrate to nitrogen gas.

Mark

[chess_wizard]

for tanks with higher bioload, perticularly ones that have fish that is the case. For your mantis and octo tank I dont see a problem.

[teknopanda]

that's what i thought chess_wizard. thanks.

[MarkS]

Originally posted by chess_wizard
for tanks with higher bioload, perticularly ones that have fish that is the case. For your mantis and octo tank I dont see a problem.

I have to disagree with ths statement VERY strongly!

Yes, your bioload is low if you count the number of animals, but you are talking about two VERY messy eaters. Bioload is more than a quantity. Some animals will effect the bioload adversly, even in low numbers. For that matter, not all inverts are low bioload animals and you just named the two that I could think of right off the top of my head.
I was thinking about keeping an octopus at one time and was told to do very regular water changes and use an overpowered skimmer to combat the inevitable increase of ammonia and nitrates associated with these creature's feeding habits. Get rid of the biowheel, you will not need it and invest in a very big skimmer.

Mark

[teknopanda]

so u actually believe that the biowheel will be drowned in nitrates? and if i take it out i will have no nitrates?

[MarkS]

No, the biowheel will be drowned in ammonia from rotting food (you will not be able to get it all no matter what you might be thinking...). Biowheels are so efficient, that the ammonia will be converted to nitrate continuously as there will be a continuous supply of ammonia. Your tank will be drowned in nitrates.

I would do weekly water changes and use a big skimmer. Also make every attempt to get all uneaten food out of the tank.

As a side note, some people have kept mantis in nanos and I can think of no reasons not too, but I would be wary of trying to keep an octo in any tank < 30 gallons. I would recommend you post some questions in the ceph forum.

Mark

[mxpro32]

nitrates are less toxic than ammonia so i dont see why it would be so bad to convert it all into nitrates. better than having ammonia build up in the tank. also the bacteria in the live sand and live rock can deal with the nitrates.

[teknopanda]

i totally agree. i don't know where people come up with these whack nitrate theories. you're not magically get more nitrates because you have a biowheel. it's still the same amount of organics.

for example. you feed one krill to an animal that eats the krill and the total organics that accumulate equals X and will always be X regardless of biowheel or no biowheel.

[Pinecone_Jeff]

I've kept 2 biowheels going in my 10 gal nano at work for over a year and a half and the way I combat excess nitrates is with caulerpa. But since I switched from razor caulerpa to grape caulerpa, I've decided to take out my biowheels because the grape grows twice as fast as the razor did. Instead of harvesting the razor at once a month, I have to harvest the grape at twice a month! All other factors have remained the same. No new animals or feeding regimes.

So we'll see if the removal of the wheels helps slow down the growth of the caulerpa. Unless the caulerpa can utilize other wastes, in which case I may not see a decline in the grape caulerpa's growth rate. We'll see.

Now, one thing is for sure. Nitrates are LESS toxic than nitrites of course. However, they are STILL toxic to inverts and to a lesser degree fish. A really efficient way of turning waste into nitrates, i.e. the biowheel, just makes you have to export your nitrates in a faster and more efficient way (skimming or growing macro algae).

The process in which nitrates are ultimately converted into nitrogen gas, etc. is virtually impossible in a nano tank. There just isn't enough surface area in a deep sand bed or enough live rock with deep porous areas to harbor the various anaerobic bacteria, etc. to convert nitrates into harmless gas. I forgot what size of a tank is required before such conversions can take place and I'll refer you to any of the articles by Ron Shimek for the details.

I guess in the end, it's really your experience with or without the wheels that will determine if you think you need it or not. But just be sure to monitor your tank visually as well as with test kits to make sure that your water quality is where you want it to be for the health of your critters. I think that's the most anyone can hope for in their tanks! :D I'll be finding out in the next several months if removing my wheels will make a difference in how my tank's overall health will be.

Just my $0.02 worth. :)

[teknopanda]

ah perfect answer. thanks.

[mswt5]

ummmm.....smack me if im wrong here.....but i dont think caulerpa takes out nitates....or ammonia or nitrites.....they take out nutrients for growth before they become ammonia and get passed down the chain

[Pinecone_Jeff]

They do use nitrates (and phosphates) as nutrients for their growth. I just don't know about nitrites or ammonia (probably not ammonia) if caulerpa can even use them. But the nitrates, yes.

And there's no smacking around here! :)

[Pinecone_Jeff]

I forgot to say that the nitrates act like fertilizer, just like for your house plants. In fact, I used to keep freshwater fish and whenever I did a water change, I took the tank water and poured it into my houseplants. It worked really well too! :)

[Toyfreek]

According to Delbeek/Sprung's The Reef Aquarium Vol. 1
The reason the Bio-wheels are bad is only when used in conjunction with an overflow or surface skimmer. when these take the scum off the top of the water it is immediatly turned into nitrates in a Bio-wheel-ball filter, thus adding extra nitrates into your water from the amino acids and organic material in the surface scum. Teknopanda pointed out the old, how can you get more than you put in argument, so I thought I would share.
HTH,
Toy

[Pinecone_Jeff]

Hey, nice cat, Toy! :D Another person with their cat as their avatar! What's your cat's name? The little guy under my name is Kiko. He's one of 4 cats. We just got a siamese this past weekend. 4 male cats and 2 female dogs. A full house I'd say! :D

[Nanoreefer]

FWIW - I have a 15 gallon tank set up as a nanoreef with a penguin 110 bio-wheel, I used this because I had it when I had fresh water, and if I could use it why not.

I wanted to go skimmerless so I was told by many experienced reefers not to get rid of the bio-wheel, not because of the bio filter, but because of the aeration. Without a skimmer, or an airhose in the tank, the bio-wheel was the best source of adding oxygen to the system.

To combat the nitrates, I added a CPR Aquafuge which works awesome, since its addition I have never again tested for nitrates.

I only use the filter cartridge for 1/2-1 day a week, which is usually right after my water change.

[chess_wizard]

The biowhealse increase the surface area for bacteria that take 0xygen, ammonia, and nitrite and convert them to nitrate. Live rock dose the same expept it continues using anarobiotic areas of the rock to take the nitrate and convert it to nitrogen gas. If you use both, they are competing for the arabiotic bacteria there for making the live rock less efficaint at converting nitrate to nitrogen gas. In that situation the nitrate builds up, and is not removed as efficiantly.

More on the theorie of biowheale vs not:
In the ocean, The animal waists are removed in the form of the Live rock, and not the biowheals and the idea of our aquariums is to creat as natrual setting as possalbe for the heath and wellbing of our critters.

In low bioload systems, there most likly is no significant differance.

[Pinecone_Jeff]

Hey Chess,
Just a point of clarification... isn't it true that biowheels are exposing aerobic bacteria to oxygen so they can do their job in eliminating ammonia and nitrites while deep inside anaerobic parts of LR, where there's little to no oxygen, the anaerobic bacteria do their job in converting nitrates into nitrogen gas?

I think the point that I was trying to make earlier was that whatever you nutrient load is in your tank, conversion from ammonia to nitrites to nitrates occurs at different rates depending on the method used. Biowheels are extremely efficient at converting ammonia and nitrites into nitrates. But because these wheels are aerobic bacteria factories, they can't even begin to address nitrate consumption. And this is why we use deep sandbeds. DSBs give us a lot of surface area with anaerobic conditions to help convert nitrates into gas. But compared to the biowheels production of nitrates, this process of converting nitrates into gas is way slower. So in effect, biowheels produce nitrates faster than any DSB or LR can get rid of it. So there's a build up of nitrates no mater what.

At least this is how I understand it from my readings and from my 10 gal nano that used 2 biowheels and caulerpa.

[Toyfreek]

Hi Pinecone_Jeff,
My kitty is named Kukla, We have another named Ollie and are getting a Norwiegan Shepherd who will be named Fran.
I always thought your cat looked like a cougar from the pic, I figured Pinecone-Hmm Mountain guy maybe who digs cougars...What Kind of Kitty is that? If it is a cougar wow that truly is one full house!
Take care,
Toy

[Pinecone_Jeff]

The cat's name is Kiko. He's an occicat, a breed made up of abyssinian, english short hair, and I think siamese. He's white with dark stripes and spots. In the pic, he's doing the super smell thing and I happened to take a flash picture of him just when he was doing that face. He's our number 2 cat but he's pretty much the alpha.

The other cats are
1) Muggle Bump (abby)
2) Kiko (described above)
3) Blue Berry (Russian Blue)
4) Sunny (Siamese).

Lucy is our 2 year old Viszla and Zola is our 8 year old Australian Shepard.

And I'm the biggest animal in the house (and the wettest)! :D

[chess_wizard]

right on Pinecone_Jeff however, if theres a minute amount of ammonia in the first place, there will only be a minute amount of nitrate and that, that minture amount of nitrate is diffused throught the tank water. Nitrate may also be exported through other methods.