Banggai Breeders

[keith clarke]

This forum is such a cozy place to relax and read about all the other successful banggai breeders. Congratulations to all of you and thank you for sharing your successes and failures. Many interesting observations have been presented here. Hopefully in the future I can add a little to the pool of information.

Banggai breeding has been the highlight of my aquarium experience for the past few years. A pair of wild caught specimens have produced brood after brood. I know the excitement you felt when you first realized that your male was carrying. The wonderment that grows within until he finally releases. Even the pride of giving away the results of your labour of love. So much from such a small creature!

I'm sad to say that my original pair are now deceased. The male suffered a string of aborted broods. His mate refused to give him a day off in order to eat sufficient food to remain healthy. Within a month of his demise she also passed away. She was eating well at the time and did not display any symptoms of disease. Could she have died of a broken heart? Heed Frank's advice. Occasionally separate the male from female so that he can recover his strength and regain his health.

Fortunately I have a mating pair of first generation siblings. They are housed in a 25T seagrass ecosystem that is dedicated to them. Hopefully this will provide a good vantage point for observing their behaviour and that of their offspring.

I hope you folks don't mind the inclusion of a small photo.
http://www.geocities.com/lagoon_reef/BangJuvPrPa080047.jpg

This was taken recently during their first brooding attempt. They were 4 months old at the time. The brood was lost within a week. A few weeks later the male was brooding again. He is now on day 18. Hopefully there will be fry again in a few days!

Dave's post about female aggression caught my interest. I've always felt that the female assumes the role of protector at times while the male is brooding, but I've never witnessed the degree of aggression he described. Juveniles housed in close quarters have provided interesting observations that I will glad to share with you in a subsequent post.


keith
The future of our hobby depends upon coral propagation and captive fish breeding.

[smokinreefer]

sad day when a pair of fish die...broken heart indeed. for you and the female cardinal. i had the same thing happen, but with my freshwater stingrays. the male got trapped under a piece of wood. some plecos ate his face off. then sadly the female stopped eating...got an infection and passed on too. that sucked.

[keith clarke]

The first brood of banggai fry I attempted to raise was held in a separate growout tank. This was placed near the reef display tank. Fry death due to fright syndrome began in the second week. Motion or activity in the vicinity of their tank caused one or more fry to react. A frightened fish would swim about erratically causing it to strike rocks and glass before dropping to the bottom of the tank. It would lie there, white and motionless. Some would recover. Others died. The tank sides were covered and fright syndrome deaths ended.

The second brood was added to the first brood in the growout tank. A few weeks after the second brood was released I found one fry in the enclosed RDP macro refugium sump attached to the main tank. It was decided then to shutdown the growout tank and place all of the fry in the sump. A 6"x12" compartment containing some live rock was provided. This is the close quarters I referred to in the previous post.

Some juveniles from the last couple of broods produced by the original pair were maintained in this compartment for an extended period of time. At three months of age I began to notice that the largest two of eight remaining fish had paired off. The gender of these two was easily recognizable.

Pairing off this early was remarkable in itself. My next observation was more interesting. The female was very aggressive towards the group of six other fish. She maintained a position between this group and her mate. The group was herded towards the front of the compartment where hiding places were sparse. They were actively harassed during feedings which caused their growth rate to be stunted. The male was always found in the back half of the compartment. This female aggression continued until I removed the pair and placed them in the seagrass tank that was maturing.

Has anyone seen similar behaviour exhibited amongst a group of juveniles? Does this behaviour indicate that the female is the dominant member of a pair. Is there another explanation for this behaviour?

Future plans include observing fry interactions with their parents and recreating the circumstances that produced the observed female aggression.

keith
The future of our hobby depends upon improved collection, handling, and shipping techniques

[billsreef]

[welcome]

That's a great pic. I'm sure we're all interested in your breeding observations :)

[Rod Buehler]

Hi Keith, I am sorry to hear that you lost your female too.
My pair finally took a much needed break for 4-6 weeks,but just released another batch. They have produced so many that I quit keeping track awhile ago, but I know they have produced well over 200 fry in 2+ years (thanks to you and Frank). The fry that Clydes pair are producing makes my pair grandparents :). I may have other pairs out there breeding, but Clydes are the first I have heard of.
I, now, keep my fry in one of those cubicle systems like you see at an LFS with 6 small (6"x8") accross the top row, 6 across the middle row and 3 bigger cubicles across the bottom row with a big sump used as a base. The slots in the acrylic that divides the cubicles are big enough to allow largge juviuniles through, but not adults. The Female (from my guess) does seem to be the one that heards the other siblings through the slots. Once they are in the next cubicle, the pair doesnt show any aggression or interest them.

[keith clarke]

Bill,
Thank you for the bubbly welcome! :)

SR and Rod,
Your condolences are appreciated.

Rod,
I can understand why you'd stop counting banggai from that factory of yours. ;)

keith
Coming soon: MACO 2 with Eric Borneman - distance education for aquarium hobbyists http://maco.cc

[Edited by keith clarke on 11-20-2000 at 08:00 AM]

[npaden]

Hey all,
I am trying to become a bangaii breeder and have a pair that have breed twice now and aborted after one week on both occasions. I feed daily and they seem fat and happy, but they are young or at least I thought they were, they are just under a year old. They seem like mature adults next to Keith's 5 month olds!
I was gone out of town when they aborted the second time, but the first time couldn't tell what was the problem anyway. My wife was still feeding well this last time I was out of town.
Any ideas when I should start to worry about a pattern of aborting and eating the eggs?
Thanks, Nathan

[FMarini]

Guys:
what a cozy place to find all the banggai breeders in one place. This is a special occasion, and for anyone who wants to pop over for some celebratory egg nog(spiked of course) you're all more than welcome.
Between Keith, Rod, and myself we have covered the whole banggai world as far as experiences goes. Wow -the banggai triple threat. Now if only they would put the banggai on CITES protection we'd be in luck

A fine how-do-you-do to Mister K Clarke for joining us on this site.
Keith:
hopefully you have solved the sudden fright syndrome problems(insufficent HUFAs in their diet), and about the herding behavior...interesting. I did report that my female became the aggressor toward the other fish when the male was carrying, and she, as you described, position herself between the "possible threat", and her egg carrying mate.

allow me to throw my ideas in for mr npaden:
My guess would be two fold. 1)- mucho activity in the tank when the banggais are carrying eggs, or 2) immature animals-althou Keiths animals have tried to refute this argument. i have had a number of premature abortion in carrying males and have attributed it to a number of factors, immature males, lousy eggs, males being overly hungry after 2 or 3 breedng sessions, too much activity in an around the male(doesn't make then feel real safe), poor water quality, and trauma (or disease)to the animals. These have all contributed in one shape or form to terminated pregnancies(can i use this analogy here?)
I'd be more than interested in opening the floor to my distingushed guests, and reading their views.
frank
PS was i too heavy on the praise. sorry this is a special day

[Wolverine]

Nathan, I feel that I'm sort of out of my league in this conversation, but I'll answer about tha aborted broods from our experience. Our bangaii tried three times and all were aborted within 2 weeks of starting. This was pretty early on, and we believe that the male was simply too small to go that long without eating. After that, they didn't try again for several months. Then, after they both had grown a little, they tried again and aborted, and then went another month or two without trying. In that time we added a light to our powerfilter/refugium that gives the tank some moonlight. Just a few days after that, the male was carrying eggs again, and this time carried them to term. Then one day after spitting them out, he carried another brood to term, waited a day, and did it a third time. And then a fourth. Then he took about a month off, and spit out another brood last week. The problem is that I don't know if the new success has more to do with the "moonlight" or more to do with the fact that the fish are now physically mature enough to pull it all off. Or, as seems to often be the case, it could be a combination of the two. So, I'm not really sure what caused it, but those are the only two things that changed in the tank during that span.

As for separating the male, we would love to, but there's no way we're catching that fish without tearing the reef apart. Both the adults know exactly where to go to get where we can't catch them. I'll just have to hope that they continue this new pattern of letting him eat for a few weeks between broods.

Dave

[keith clarke]

Hello Frank,
Took me a while to find ya, but I finally did. Feel like your being stalked? ;) I hoping to keep continue learning from your insightful and analytical posts. Thank you for your kind words today and in the past.

My observations have refuted those of others in the past, especially my favs photo, that of the egg carrying female. I don't suppose that researcher you communicated with will ever accept that photo for what it was. ;) The full story of the juvenile brooder won't be over until he spits. Today is day 21 and he still looks bulldogish.

With regards to female aggression I'm hoping to discover, among other things, an answer to the often asked question, "can I keep two females together?" In the past I've always replied, "try it and let me know". :)

Nathan, I'd be interested to hear more about your feeding practices. Frequency of feeding and foods offered would be very helpful. As Frank mentioned, tank mates can harrass a brooding male to the point of causing him to abort his brood prematurely. I noticed mine took a brooding holiday when there was a aggressive purple tang sharing the reef tank with them. Anectodotally, the brooding continued when I found a new home for the tang.

keith
Education is the first step towards a successful hobby experience

[npaden]

Thanks for the insights guys! I hadn't thought of the tank mates bothering the bangaii and making him abort. There are plenty of other fish in there and that could be something to think about. He gets pretty reclusive when carrying and goes into a back corner of the reef. Both times he aborted we knew something was up 'cause he was out front and center waiting for food when we got home.

As far as feeding we rotate between enriched frozen brine, formula II and lifeline. I used to use prime reef as well but have been lazy and just alternating between these 3 lately. Growth and size of the bangaii's and other fish in the tank wouldn't seem to indicate poor nourishment, but I know I should start soaking the food in selcon.

Dave,
It really is amazing about the moonlight coming into play. Randy (Reef Engineer) told me that his bangaii's first pregnancy occurred within a week after adding moonlight to the tank. My first pregnancy occurred withing a week after adding moonlight to the tank as well. I have since added a dimmer and am trying to follow the moon cycle to see if that will do anything. I have a pair of clarkii clowns and was seeing if they would spawn as well. I doubt the moonlighting is a requirement (I don't think Frank uses moonlighting but I'm not sure), but it does seem to be a stimulus in getting them started.

Keith,
I had some experience with female aggression when I was trying to find a mated pair. I thought that I had a male because of the aggression that it exhibited toward another bangaii introduced to the tank. I proceeded to try and sex females to add to the tank and all exhibited agression toward the existing bangaii. Finally I found one that seemed to get along after 4 tries. Turns out that the one I had all along and thought was a male is not the one that has been carrying the eggs. I was perplexed and posted a thread on this forum because the aggression that I was seeing was not near as bad as the aggression that Frank describes in his articles, but turns out this was because it was not males fighting but females. They seemed to just want to chase the other female out of their spot, not hunt them down and kill them like the males do as described by Frank.

Thanks to all for the thoughts and would appreciate any additional advice you have. I intend my rearing tank to be a 15 gallon refugium attached to the main tank, maybe the next time the male is pregnant I should catch him and move him to the refugium so he won't be harrassed or tempted to eat. That would also make catching the male and moving him back to the main tank easier than catching all the babies and moving them into the refugium.

I want to thank everyone who has posted for encouraging each other and beginner breeders like myself. I know it probably gets old answering some of the same questions over and over but hopefully it will do some good in keeping this beautiful fish alive and well in the wild if we can take some of the pressure off of their importation.

Thanks again, Nathan

[keith clarke]

Moonlights may be useful but I've never employed them. The only lights here are MHs with actinics providing dusk/dawn. FWIW, the courtship routines I've seen take place during daylight. Can't be certain when egg transfer occurs, though I have seen one instance when a female dropped eggs during daylight. She began carrying them herself but only for a few hours.

May I suggest feeding twice a day if you are only feeding once right now. Not necessarily to feed more, but to spread the nutrients throughout the day. Selcon is useful even for frozen and flake foods. My wild caught fishes were easy to target feed once they became familiar with the turkey baster thereby helping to reduce excess food pollution.

An attached growout will be a very useful design. The larger volume of water would ensure decent water quality and a minimum of equipment in the growout tank. Remember to provide some shelter for the fry. A fake urchin, some rocks or a caulerpa with long fronds would be useful.

The experiences of other breeders never gets old! Just make sure we all hear a loud WAHOO when you meet with success and don't forget to hand out cigars :smokin:

keith

[Rod Buehler]

I dont use moonlight either. And as Kieth said (he always covers everything :) )The "shimmy" takes place in the day/evening for my pair too. I missed the egg transfer by 5 minutes one time, and it was also early evening.I think they are pretty secretive about letting us see the actual transfer :).

[Wolverine]

I didn't think that the moonlight thing was essential, but I do think that it's one of many, many factors that can affect the way the fish breed; maybe something to tip the scales if things are close.


As for the transfer, we've tried pretty hard to catch it. Most of the time it happens shortly after the dusk lights shut off (since he won't have the eggs when that light shuts off, but will have them when the moonlight comes on a little later). The last time I was watching really closely, since I knew the female was close to releasing them, and I was sure it would be that day. So I had my mind set to turn on the red night-light and watch them to see it happen that night. I went and ate dinner (with the daylight on), and then looked at them half an hour later, and he was carrying eggs. I know they knew I was watching, and they waited until I turned my back. Devious, sneaky little fish.

I guess all we can do is keep trying.

Dave

[YZ]

So, is there a way to sex them or is it just by behavior?

[FMarini]

Hi:
"So, is there a way to sex them or is it just by behavior?"

excellent question...my immediate response is NOT really especially when they are juveniles, to me they look almost identical, but as they reach sexually maturity (which was originally determined to be appox 8 month, althou K Clarke animals are lowering this age immensly), the males start to look a tad bit different. Keith has posted on his stie a series of head photos of the animalks and this has helped a bit. My breeders registry article has sme more info on this, and i recently posted on this board a " new way" of my somewhat accurate guessing of males and female.
What been finny thou is i have heard a million how-to stories, ranging from counting spots on anal fins(supposedly males have fewer spots), counting the scales behind the eyes, to top portion of the caudal fin is longer in one sex than the other. Any and all of these could be correct, but nothing has popped out as definitive yet.
Read these threads and see if that helps
http://archive.reefcentral.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?threadid=7592
http://archive.reefcentral.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?threadid=8445
frank

[bigben]

Howdy y'all!!!

I wish I had stopped in here recently. I've been missing a great discussion! I'm in the same boat as several people. My pair is about 1 y.o. and the male has "aborted" each of the three times spawning has occured.

I can't remember if I posted this on the boards, but I actually watched them court last time, which was an amazing site to see!! The female danced around the male and fluttered her fins up against him. I found this especially exciting (not in THAT way, for you pervs out there), because the pair is so timid, and they often hide.

I continue to feed heavily (only once a day, because I'm confined to the lab) with frozen brine. On a rare occasion, I will buy live brine for them. I tried feeding them flakes once, but they weren't interested.

Frank, thanks for the info from last time :)

Ben

[keith clarke]

The December issue of Aquarium Fish magazine has a banggai cardinal article by Scott Michael. Very informative with regards to discovery and natural habitat. There are also many references to some dude named Marini and his ongoing banggai research ;) Congrats Frank!

My brooding juvenile is still carrying. He's gonna burst if he doesn't release soon. Today is day 26. Both fish are very comfortable in their seagrass habitat. They allow me to closely observe. When lights go on in the morning and he is translucent I can see the eyes of the fry through the bottom of his jaw!

This photo shows how I normally view him as he hovers in his usual location near the front glass in a thicket of algae.

http://www.geocities.com/banggai/Male_Pb210072.jpg
The fish appears lifesize on my 19 inch monitor (800x600). Tip to tip he is about 1.5 inches.

News and fry pics to follow if all continues to goes well.

keith

[bigben]

Thanks for the info, Keith!! I'll check out the article.

Just wandering, where did you get that bright green seagrass from? I would love to setup a nice bed of that in my growout tank. Is there an online merchant who sells it? Thanks,

Ben

[keith clarke]

HI Ben,
This weed was given to me by a friend. I believe that it came from Inland Aquatics. http://www.inlandaquatics.com

I'm not certain of the proper name for it. Using the book, "Marine Plants of the Caribbean" by Littler and Littler, I would guess that it is Caulerpa prolifera. IA has C. prolifera listed in their catalog. They also have a flora kit that includes a variety of marine plants.

keith

[bigben]

Thanks, Keith. I checked out IA's site, and like you suggested, it's either, C. prolifera, or it's Caulerpa brachypus, which is a miniature version of C. prolifera

IA claims that C. brachypus is "unique to this group in that it is both delicate and will, from time to time, attempt to sexually reproduce by falling apart and releasing gametes into the system. However, it's so small that the effects are minimized and outweighed by the benefits of this beautiful and rarely seen alga."

Thanks again, and sorry to be so off-topic. I'm just trying to setup a lush, green, attractive, and sheltered environment for my future baby Bangaiis :)

Ben

[Technobuyer]

Hello Banggai Breeders!

I'm in the process of setting up a 30g long coral propagation tank, and was wondering if this might also serve as a suitable home to a pair of breeder banggai? There will be about 45-50 lbs of LR, sand bed, PVC shelving for prop trays, and vho lighting. I know have alot to read and learn about the breeding and raising of fry, but just want to know if this setup sounds suitable or not? Thanks!

[bigben]

Hey Techno,

Guess it's been a while since the chatting days, huh. Wish we still had that feature on RC.

Well, that setup sounds good to me. I think some of the key points are to give the fry plenty of shelter and hiding places. Second, you need some decent filtration and/or semi-frequent water changes to combat the waste produced from the artemia feeding.

I can think of only a couple of reasons why I might not use the same tank for coral propagation. First, you will likely be in and out of the tank often, and this might scare the fry to death or stress them (I've never experienced this, 'cause my pair is still unsuccessful). Second, the waste produced in the tank could be a little much for coral propping (depending on what corals you're talking about). These are just my thoughts, though. Good luck! Maybe the more experienced guys can give you better advice.


Have you thought setting up a macro tank similar to Keith's? I've seen a few other grow-out tanks with this style that have been immensly successful. Just something to consider. Later,
Ben

PS--I drove through Dallas on the way to and from Kansas. Traffic was HORRIBLE (even compared to Houston)!!!!

[Technobuyer]

Thanks for the reply, Ben. Yeah Dallas traffic really huffs. You raise some very good points. I hadn't thought of the hand in the tank scaring the fry thing. I had thought about the waste, but as most of my efforts in the coral area will be softies, shrooms etc, I kinda thought the excess nutrient might not hurt, and could possibly be helpful. I'm gonna be running a Knop HOB also, which while it's not a great skimmer, should be sufficent for a 30g. Then again, I could be very wrong! I also plan to grow some macros in there to help feed my tangs, so that will also help with nutrient export. I haven't seen Keith's setup. Does he have a website? TIA!

[bigben]

No problem. Yeah, your idea sounds like a great plan to me!! I don't think Keith has a website, but he told me he has a grow out tank with around 15lbs of live rock, several different macros, a sandbed, and a skimmer. I think the pics above are of the fish in his his sump/refugium (I'm too lazy to go back and make sure). Sounds like you're on the right track.

My bangaiis just spawned for the fourth time on Sat night. It's been 3 weeks since their last go-round. It sure would be nice if the male keeps the clutch to term this time--the last 3 times have been unsuccessful. Let's keep our fingers crossed. Have your Bangaiis been breeding yet? What are your experiences with the pair? HTH,

Ben

[dragon0121]

Hi all!
I was wondering where you got your breeding pairs at? The LFS here rarely carry any Bangaii and I certainly don't want to have to buy 5 or 6 fish to luck upon a pair, considering the lack of cooperation the LFS would give me. :( Is it possible to get a mated pair MO from somebody?

[keith clarke]

oops

[keith clarke]

Ben,
You're carrying the discussion quite well by yourself. Not much to add cept good luck to you with the new brood.

Techno,
You're plan will work! The two functions will be well served by the one glass box. With plenty of cover the fry won't be so easily frightened. Good luck with your setup.

I haven't prepared a webpage for the banggai tank yet. Photos here are all from that tank. Maybe I'll do something constuctive soon.

All the best to everyone in MMI,
keith

[Technobuyer]

Originally posted by keith clarke
I haven't prepared a webpage for the banggai tank yet. Photos here are all from that tank. Maybe I'll do something constuctive soon.

Keith,

Thanks for the reply! Which photos are you referring to?

[keith clarke]

TB,
Any photos that I've posted to threads here, (banggai posts in this forum within the last month or so) have been taken in the macroalgae tank that is dedicated to a pair of breeding banggai cardinals, their fry, and a month old seahorse.

More banggai fry expected any second now ;)

keith

[Grunt]

I have a minor question. I've been reading alot of the articles and posts about the breeding of Banggai Cardinals. I thought I might try to follow in some of your footsteps and try to breed them. My question is what prices have you guys bought them for?
I've seen prices from $10-110 for ONE Banggai. What should I expect to pay for them?Thanks for all the great articles by the way. :)
-Grunt

[FMarini]

Hi Guys:
quite a discussion going on here, it kinda revived Keiths old thread.

Costs of banggai....
Locally in houston they run between $8-12. I have seen them on the net going from $12-24/ea. i would say that every LFS (which carries saltwater) in houston has 5 or more banggais for sale...so they are not scare. As far as pricing for captive bred fish. inlandaquatics is the only place I'm aware off selling captive bred banggais, they will also sell a "pair" for about $60/(don't quote me on the price). I'm not sure how they are pairing but they do sell them paired up.
Do read all the old posts and some articles out there on breeding these beautiful fish. Since Keith and i last worte articles not much more on raising the fry has been released, so the "older' articles(from 1996-98) still hold true.
On last note....for all who is interested. I have read a report where 2 new populations of banggai have been discovered. These new populations appear to be populations started from wildcaught and released banggais into tropical waters, and more interestingly the adult animals appear to inhabit the upper waters 0-6meters, and the fry are living below this in the tentecles of long tentecles plates corals and aneomones. Guess this substatiate the reports of hobbiest who mention their bangai fry live in the tentecles of inverts. Awesome
frank

[Grunt]

Thank you Frank
:)
Also do they require Macro algae in the tank? Such as sea grass or Calp,etc?
Also I havent seen this talked about much, but what are ideal conditions for a tank?
Thanks for all the info
:D
-Grunt

[npaden]

Wow Frank, no wonder you quit breeding your bangaii's commercially! $8 to $12 retail! I've seen captive raised bangaiis for sell as cheap as $12 online at premium aquatics. (That is where my female is from)
Around here they sell for $20 and I've asked how much I could sell 3/4" SVL babies for and they will give $8. I might try to push them to $10 if I ever get my male to carry to term!
Grunt, sea grass or caulerpa is good for bangaii's as they have lots of hiding areas in the caulerpa. Actually in the wild the fry are supposed to use pincushion urchins for shelter.
It is good to have such vast experience out there to ask questions. I am going to give my male another chance to carry to term in the main tank as this time I feel the tramatic experience of losing power for such a long time with constant water starts and stops, temperature drops, etc... could easily have been the cause for him to abort. He carried for 14 days which was double his first 2 attempts, maybe this next time he will get it right!
FWIW, Nathan

[keith clarke]

Banggai prices vary hereabouts. In 98 when these fish were somewhat scarce locally my wild caughts cost me about $50 CDN (~$30 USD) . CRs or WCs fetch from $30 to $40 ($20 to $26 USD) these days. The lfs would only pay $12 ($8 USD) for 1.5 inch (TTT) fry. These would in turn be sold for $30 ($20USD). I'd sooner give them to friends with good homes... More joy factor and follow up reports! :)

keith

[Technobuyer]

Thanks guys! It's really cool to get such good advice from such knowledgeable and experienced folks! I don't have a pair yet(geez..that sounds bad), but am looking at getting a couple from IA if they are truly a mated pair. Not sure I wanna try the "buy 5" approach. I'll keep ya'll informed! Thanks again!