Sandsifters breeded

[jayrc]

I posted a long while back asking about the possible pairing of orange-spotted sandsifters. Well, they obviously are a pair! Neither gave much clue that something was different. I started moving some rockwork on the bottom around and I picked up a flat piece of mushroom rock to move in another location. After moving, the sifters starting going ape**** around the abandoned area. That definitely was odd so for the hell of it I looked on the bottom of the mushroom rock. Sure enough, there was a large bunch of eggs. I gently replaced the rock in the original location and they went to work instantly.

What should I do now? There is no way in hell that any young fry will survive with the other inhabitants in the tank. Are they mouth brooders? Will that help with survival? How will I know they hatched and what to feed? Should I remove the rock to another tank? I do have a refugium. HELP!!!!!!

[FMarini]

Hi:
Cool news....
So obviously they are not mouth brooders, they laid their eggs attached to a rock.
Did you have a chance to read Martin Moes column in the past two months issues of the Advancedaquarist.com ?
Martin described all the breeding terms and concepts and these gobies would be considered demersal egg layers. This column will help you out.

Anyway the eggs and fry will not survive in the main tank. If you want to try to raise a few fry you'll have to remove the eggs to the refugium (most likely th fish too-as males or female will tend the eggs and fan water over them etc). I suspect these offspring will require either cilitate or some supersmall first food. My feeling is possible rotifers if your lucky. Remember that the fry will be planktonic in size so is the refugium closed off?

So if it were me i would leave the rock w/ eggs in the main tank, watch and take notes, figure out who tends the eggs what they do, watch and record this info. Also keep track how long it takes for the eggs to hatch. Allow this brood of fry to become tank food and prepare better for your next brood.

frank

[jayrc]

Well, now I've got my wife upset because of the grim outlook on the eggs-not-even-fry-yet. I do have some rotifers in suspension I've been putting off trying. What kind of time-frame to hatching date am I dealing with here? I would say that moving the adults to the refugium will be impossible. The refugium is NOT closed off but I can shut down the only powerhead in the tank and drastically reduce the flow. Any chance of them without the adults? I need to at least have a plan to try something or else I may be sleeping with the dog! Or the aquarium....

[jayrc]

Might as well go for broke. Wife is committed...or should I say has committed ME to the success of their survival. Let's forget the refugium. I have an extra 12 gal aquarium not being used. Will this work? What will I need? Sand, rock? Obviously no powerheads or filters. What about cycling and water quality? Yes, I am woefully unprepared but I have to try. Any quick advice or websites would be great! Thanks in advance.

[FMarini]

Jay:
To my knowledge there are NO website shy of the breeders registry where you can find info. You might want to try getting a few books on saltwater fish breeding. Otherwise theres just a few people who might have some person experience. Morgan @inlandaquatics.com might, might have some info.

Becuz you are woefully unprepared i would be concerned that your gonna gear up for nothing this go 'round.
W/ that said i have no idea what the first food would be, and this is the critical for your success.
If its rotifers then I will gladly point you to my fave rotifer greenwater place (www.mountiancorals.com product called velvet green+ rotifers). However my guts says these will be ciliates or zooplankton. Which are not yet commerically available.

I would not start a new 12 gal tank, i would use the refuugium its setup established and hopefully has a an established DSB. Actually i would use this go round as a learning experience.

Here is all I could find on your fish
http://www.breeders-registry.gen.ca.us/database/VALPUE01.htm
Description: Slender body with larger head reaching 140 mm. Body is silver to cream/white with several lateral rows of orange spots. Upper row/spots may become slender vertical bands. Fins generally lack pigmentation. Males are reported to have threadlike long rays on first dorsal. Live in burrows or "caves". Recommended that they be kept as pairs (Debelius & Baensch, 1994); permanent life-long pairing (Hiatt & Strasburg, 1960; Paulson, 1978: in Thresher 1984). Longevity in captivity 5 years +.

Debilius & Baensch, 1984 indicate that the female lays adhesive eggs on the ceiling of the cave monthly and guards them for three weeks. The day of hatching the male seals the female into the cave. The cave is reopened that evening and both parents "herd" the newly hatched larva into the open water.
Incubation period: ~ 2 weeks
Size of hatching larvae: 2.5 mm

If this data is accurate then you will be able to use rotifers. I cannot confirm this info

AS an alternative you can ask around the reef webboards an see if anyne has additional success
good luck
frank

[jayrc]

Thanks Frank. I did finally find an article Martin Moe wrote in one of the reef aquarium mags. Looks as though I need to wait until they do indeed hatch before removing from the main tank. Wow. It's a real good article and explains a great deal. I'm sure it will be trial and error for quite a while. I'll let you know how things go. Thanks again.

[Louis Z]

If you were to move the eggs now - you could try a gentle aeration with an airstone, methylene blue( used in FW to prevent fungus- not sure how critical it is in SW), and exacto knife to remove the bad or undeveloped eggs. Thats a lot of work so I would leave them with the parents- they do a much better job at it. I wouldnt move the eggs or parents until after the fry have hatched- In FW some pairs of cichlids were disrupted by moving before eggs hatched - they seem to blame the other for the loss of eggs. Again this is in FW. I would move these fish to the refugium to see if they would continue to spawn but probably a delay of some time before they started getting it on again. I would d/c the pump to the main tank once the eggs are about to hatch. Glad you are gonna wait for the next spawning run- It will take you a while to set up cultures of algae. Besides all that rushing around tends to deflate one's drive to succeed if failure is met. I found a source of ciliates - I havent ordered them yet-Sachs Systems Aquaculture. Also look to Florida Aqua Farms for Plankton Culture Manual and related equipment. Look at a thread started on reefs.org about someone spawning Gregory Damselfish- he used a gentle siphon tube placed near the eggs to catch the larvae. You could use that setup placed just outside their hole. Also remember that there are different sizes of rotifers.

[jayrc]

I looked around the internet and found a site that is a goby breeding lab. Didn't breed my orange-spot but had a lot of good stuff in and the guy doing the research was kind enough to return my emails. His advice was to remove the rock with the eggs to my larval tank. Franks piece above was pretty much on the money...unfortunately for me the male sealed up the female in the cave Friday! I was going to setup the other tank but figured I didn't have time. We waited till lights out for several hours and she never came out. She did open the cave a bit but that was it. Stayed that way until around 1:00 pm Saturday afternoon. She started coming out and I figured that was that. I missed it and they are somewhere in the system. I went ahead and setup the tank and figured I'd go ahead and put the rock with the egg mass in there for the heck of it just in case...both adults were still pretty nervous about that rock! I put the rock in a large bowl of tank water to carry upstairs. As I was ready to put it in the tank...the bowl was filled with tiny sandsifters!! Absoluletly amazing. Could not believe what I was seeing. Of course, all my live rotifers and golden pearls will not arrive until Tuesday. I did pick up some coral food in powder form that claimed it was a substitute for rotifers. I added that and some selcon. It either works or it doesn't. Nine hours later and there is still a mess of them. By the way...the guy from that site said they would probably spawn every 7-10 days. I read elsewhere that it's about every month. I'll keep ya posted.

[Louis Z]

Thats awesome. By any chance could you put some in your refugium to see if they stay alive? I dont know if the larvae will last that long w/o food in a newly setup tank - they are very dependant on first food. Do you see egg sacs attached or are they already fully formed. Do you have a preseeded sponge filter going on in the tank yet? If not maybe you can put some of your live rock in there to control waste buildup. Do you have sand in the larval tank - that might be another option to control waste. Have you started taking notes yet - if you havent you should start- thats a way to problem solve. You should replace that rock back in the main tank so as to keep your gobies happy. A lot of questions for you - sorry Louis Z.

[jayrc]

Louis, at this point I am going on the advice in the article of the yearly Aquarium and Reef Magazine. Martin Moe had an article in there...a very good one that explained how to take care of a larval tank. The only thing used is a heater and air stone. No filtration at all. Adding fresh water and doing water changes frequently is all that is required. Then, after the metamorphis, they are moved to a grow-out tank with a sponge filter. From all indications of their behavior so far...from written accounts, they "appear" to be striking after the food I put in. Now, the big question is whether or not they are actually ingesting it and doing them any good. I'm hoping the Selcon is helping with the fatty stuff. It looks as though all survived the night. Man!! There are untold hundreds of them! Well, I'll keep you guys posted as things progress. Thanks for your support.

[jrc]

Well guys, what started out as excitement is quickly turning into disappointment. Not a lot of them left this morning. Keep in mind that I have no live food for them as yet and I have no way of telling whether or not they are taking that powder substitute. So attrition is due to 1 of 3 things....1. Starving. 2. Overfeeding with this stuff and fouling the tank. 3. Combination of both. I did throw about a dozen into the refugium late last night. If they stay away from the drain tube they might be okay with all of the spawning going on in there. If any are alive in the larval tank by the time I get home from work, I'll do a big water change(time consuming with only a small airline pulling out water!). Now I can understand why few people ever attempt this!

[Louis Z]

think positive you will be ready for run# two and know what to look for. Hey could you shut off the pump to the refugium so they dont get sucked to the main tank. Remember to start your journal. On your next spawn try and put some in the refugium right away and shut the water circulation off.- Usually the larvae need to start eating right away. I havent read anywhere that anyone has succeeded with a formulated feed but a lot of people have tried- they usually use a substitute once the larvae have been many days past metamorphosis. From hearing about Selco or Selcon that is usually not best to add to the tank directly but add to the live food (so they can ingest it) in another tank and then transfer. One way to try and see how bad of pollution is to test water paramaters. As for the water you used in the larval tank, was it just mixed or did you have it stabilized already. - Not a good idea to use "just reconstitued" but aerated, carbon filtered and ph and temp matched. On your next run try and split the larvae into several tanks so as not to keep all your eggs in one basket . You might try some with the parent tank water, aged water, and refugium water. As for filtration try one with a sponge(very gentle flow), liverock(making sure you have no aptasia) and one as suggested by Moe. You just have to go by trial and error(logbook) and hope for serendipity. Keep us posted on the future runs -It was exciting to hear your reports. Thanks Louis Z.

[Oze Reefer]

my shifters breed in pipes and tubes........i haven't been able to raise any fry past a week though

[jrc]

I've achieved 100% mortality. Wierd looking into the tank and having to really search just to identify one fry when a couple of days ago it was a mass of darting figures. Too easy to foul a tank of this nature using artificial foods. I received some Golden Pearls too late. It would have been interesting to see if they work as claimed. Rotifers arrive today so I will get busy getting the cultures of those and Nanno microalgae going for the next batch. The one guy from the research lab I've been emailing my results to suggested another form of food people are trying. You take grass clippings, bit of hay, or something similar and put it in a jar of water. As the clippings decompose, it causes a micro organism bloom(can't remember name). He says they are small enough for these type of fry. Again, just because it is small enough is no guarantee of the fry eating it. Ready to try again. Thanks everyone for your support. Jay

[Timothy McCandless]

i was reading your notes above and was curious if you still have the websites available where you found some of your info?

Thanks

I am in the middle of setting up a co-culture tank for my 4-stripe damsels. They spawn on a regular basis. The eggs hatch in three days.
I tried before to raise them without live rotifers and failed miserably. The last one passed at about 72 hours.
Thanks again,
Tim

[Louis Z]

Ozereef- How do you collect your fry - do you wait till they hatch or just before they do? If before do you pull the pipes straight out? What species are you working with and what have you tried to feed in the initial week? As far as water quality what do you do in the larval tank? Thanks Louis Z.

[Louis Z]

Timothy there is a site called Gobioid Research Institute of the Atlantic (http://home.att.net/%7Egobiidae/mission.htm) which has some great info on gobies and I have emailed James Van Tassell before. He was willing to ship some gobies to me ( a hobbyist) that he collected. He did a collecting trip in June and has one coming up in July. I am just waiting for my tank to age abit before asking for the pairs he collects. He is very quick with responses on email. Sounds like he is very interested in sharing his knowledge and working with hobbyists(particularly those interested in gobies). As for Jayrc the trick you mention is to get a batch of ciliates growing. This trick is often done in FW fish culture- putting a boiled piece of lettuce or hay or straw or rice in water exposed to the outside. Once the water clears up one would know that ciliates have started to flouish. To continue the batch one can add a piece of well dried cow patty to the water to continue fertilization. The Sachs System Aquaculture (http://www.aquaculturestore.com/) that I mentioned previously has SWparamecium(ciliate) listed so you dont have to wait for your water to be innoculted. Thanks Louis Z.

[jayrc]

Tim, Louis has the correct website that I found. The guy doing the articles/research was Todd Gardner and he's been a big help.

Louis, That is an interesting point with the ciliates(infusoria). Todd didn't go into that much detail. So when the water clears back up is when the culture is going? Are these similar to phytoplankton or more on the rotifer-type side of things? Anything besides a cow pattie work? I'm not near any farms to go out collecting!! I'm assuming you would just pour this water off into the fry tank? One last question...does the grass clippings or whatever used have to thoroughly decompose? I want to try this so anymore info you can share would be great.

It looks like the pair are gearing up for another go 'round. I want to be a little more prepared this time. Thanks guys! Jay

[Louis Z]

Jayrc Thats great news on the pair- good to know that they werent interrupted. The cow patty idea is not necessary its just an easy way to do it(set it and forget it). If you plan to raise rotifers then you will be able to raise ciliates- you can use the microalgae to feed them. The ciliate that I am referring to is the paramecium( they come in different sizes). There are other ciliates like Euplotes which are benthic in nature - every tank probably has them already Its just that we dont look. The ciliates are predators that consume algae and bacteria. They are even smaller than ss-rotifers. Infusoria is an old term used as a catchall name to encompass small microscopic organisms-but if you would mention that to a ciliate researcher you would be corrected. As for culturing you could get a bag of straw/alfalfa from your local Petc*- its used to feed gerbils/hamsters. I wouldnt use grass clippings if you dose with any pesticides like we do down here. The stuff doesnt have to be thoroughly composted just dried a bit. Boiling for 5 min. would break it down enough. The solution will be cloudy and even get worse due to the bacteria bloom. So when ciliates are majically blown about the wind they tend to fall in open receptacles and begin multiplying. So yes when the water clears you have had a ciliate bloom that helped in clearing the water. Now after I have said all this - one thing I dont know is will the paramecium in your neck of the woods be able to live in saltwater. Thats why I mentioned SSA - you could order your starter culture - know that it is pure and feed microalgae right away. One thing is to keep your rotifers and ciliates seperated for they will contaminate each others culture. The reason I state that is because not all larvae react well to rotifers even though they may eat them easily. So when you feed paramecium you know that your not introducing rotifers. Again its trial and error. One way is to seperate the larvae into different tanks and note which live food combinations work. I am glad to help and hope for the best with your breeding pairs.

[jrc]

Louis, I did order some paramecium from Sachs. Hopefully will arrive Saturday because last night I moved another batch of eggs into the larvae tank. That was quick! Due to the info Frank provided, I gathered they were somewhat close because the male had closed the female into the cave. Rabbits have nothing on these two!

I also received a little more info back from Todd from that goby institute. He said for me to use salt water with decomposing grass outside. We'll see. Reguardless, my spare bedroom is starting to look like a low budget lab.

[Louis Z]

Jayrc - maybe they spawned so soon because you took their eggs/larvae away - note that down and maybe if you leave eggs with them one time maybe they'll take a little longer to start laying eggs again- just a thought. Anyway do you already have green water going? Its important to feed algae to the paramecium for them to be enriched. When you get your cultures it might be a good idea to split and culture in two different containers - so if you loose one you still have another and you wont have to order again. Once your culture gets going you might try seperate some paramecium and add selcon to them and see if they ingest it directly -worth a try - and if they do what a way to dose selcon. Also you may want to start getting brine shrimp eggs ready to hatch. So a combination of foods will be necessary. Ciliates first few days then rotifers then BBS- you might have to overlap adding the cultures so that if all of the larvae havent started eating the next size up they will still find food. Again you may want to start the larvae in different tanks so that you may try different feeding regimens to see which one gets you farther than the 72hrs( when they died with no food). I hate to keep bringing up the variables yet one more - sometimes if you feed to much or to little of the right food you can still end up with fatalities- you have to find the happy medium. And yet another one - the black covering around the rearing tank should probably be like a matte black instead of reflective or shiney. Remember about what you are reading - Martin Moes idea is a good one yet what works for one type of larvae may not work with all. You are in unknown territory - its ok to take ideas from different places and formulate the one that works for your species. Please tell me that you are keeping a log or journal because once you start with different runs - one can get confused or forget the process. If you end up with some larvae metamorphosing you can go back and retrace your steps to improve your success rate or you may find that one little thing you did was very critical to success or failure. KEEP us posted. No way that you can culture in the garage? Its difficult to sleep with the algae lights on. Thanks Louis Z.

[jayrc]

Everything in spare bedroom so pump noise and lights no bother. Right now all cultures are in front of a window with no supplimental lighting. Nanno seems to be multiplying fine and rotifers are gobbling up the rotorich from Florida AF. I split off some Nanno into another big jar this afternoon so that makes two for the nanno, two for the rotifers and one for the paramecium/copepod culture. The infusoria cultures outside are still in experimentation. Water is real brown right now and stinks to high heaven! Hopefully it will clear soon and I will showing that something is growing in there and I'll feel better about those.

A few fry hatched this morning and some more this afternoon. No mass hatch yet. Those that are out seem to be having a field day with the live stuff floating around the tank. I added some nanno as well. A few more days would have been nice allowing me to get the cultures really going.

I am making notes...quite general and nothing scientific or specific at all. Wing and a prayer way of doing things here. I've bumped up the lighting on the tank to help the nanno keep going... course, don't know what it will feed on. Well, again, thanks for the support and I'll definitely keep you posted. Thanks. Jay

[Louis Z]

I know that theres a budget yet 2 books are worth getting just for the food cultures. The Plankton Culture Manual at Florida Aqua Farms and also the Clownfishes A Guide to Their Captive Care, Breeding and Natural History by Joyce D Wilkerson. So much info in these books to help you culture that no one could ever tell you everything you need to know on this BB. One other thing did the SSA send you paramecium/copepods? These are two different organisms - both are great to have yet I would think that these should have been seperated from SSA. Although many places that rear copepods usually have ciliates as a contaminate that is difficult to exclude. The copepods were the next organism I was going to recommend to you if the ciliates didnt work. The copepod first larvae size are smaller than some rotifers - they also are fed microalgae. There are two types 1) harpactacoid and 2) calanoid. The harpactacoid can be fed the algae you are culturing or can be raised on an algal paste from Reed Mariculture. The calanoid copepods must be raised on live microalgae. As for adding the Nano to the larval tank - thats ok because they thrive on the wastes produced from the larvae- this is often been done to control water quality. I havent come across any info where the microalgae is a food source directly but if the larvae eat it - great. There is one instance where dinoflagellates (motile microalgae)were used as a source of food in a grouper study. Keep us posted Louis Z.

[jrc]

SSA shipment of paramecium arrived Saturday and he included a note saying the numbers of paramecium were lower than he wanted so he added some copepod larvae to it. I do have the FAF Plankton Culture Manual and it has some great info in it... almost too much. Still waiting for the cultures outside to take off and clear the water.

One thing that is bugging me though. That first batch hatched all at once almost as if on que. This batch is coming out individually. There's several in the tank but quite obvious the egg mass is still loaded. I'm afraid to turn up the air beneath it too much and tear apart the mass.

[Louis Z]

The funny thing is - that all it takes is a few paramecium to multiply into huge numbers quickly. Well you got the bonus of copepods yet I wonder what type - did they give any clue? I would think that copepods would snack on ciliates also. I dont know how big of a population of ciliates you will have with the copepods in there. As for the outside cultures It may take awhile. One thing that I said before is I dont know if you have any ciliates blowing in the wind in your area that can live in SW. Where Todd lives is close to the ocean so yes I think he would have no problem getting a culture going that way. With me being about 100mi inland I may get some ciliates blown in from the Gulf of Mexico if a storm from the SE comes in. As for the eggs hatching is the temp in the larval tank the same or lower than the parent tank? I still think that you would have less success with airstones than if you left the eggs with the parents to fan and oxygenate. You may have pulled the eggs sooner than you did in your previous attempt and thus less time with the parents. I am just guessing but make sure you write that observation down scientifically or not . Thanks Louis Z.

[jrc]

Louis, not so sure about the paramecium that I have. I strained several ounces out thru a 53 micron screen and I sure couldn't see anything under my little 8x magnifier. Anyway, I think I figured out why no mass hatch has occurred. I was waiting for the female to be blocked up inside the cave... a sure sign that hatch is close. When I saw one of them blocked up, that's when I grabbed the rock. I now believe that it was the male inside fertilizing the eggs and that it was blocked up to ensure that his seed wasn't whipped away in the currents. I must have interrupted this process. It's the only reason I can come up with why only a few have hatched and there is now changes to the rest of the eggs this entire week. I screwed the pooch on this one myself. Oh well. More research suggests that when the female does get blocked in the cave, she could be in there up to seven days! I need to at least wait until the male finishes his business. They are currently making their next nest where I cannot reach them.

[Louis Z]

Jayrc Vitz at reefs.org BB had a thread in captive breeding section about collecting damsel fry after hatching. As for seperating paramecium from copepods you might have to use the 25micron screen (F-A-Farms). Some copepod nauplii are smaller than 53micron. You probably have to wait for sufficient #s to see paramecium swarming in the tank ( clear shimmering area). I would try to filter them from the copepods because they probably would keep their population down due to predation. As for the disturbance - that often triggers many pairs of fish to move. Good thing is that they are still continuing to nest. I was reading the Scott Michael article in AFM Jan &Feb issues. He mentions that some of the gobies hook up for the breeding season only. Is there any way to isolate the pair in their own dedicated tank?

[jayrc]

It would be near impossible and I'm not going to set up another tank just for them. Just have to make do with what I currently have. Not going to shell out any more money on this. My plan was to try and disturb their new area and get them to come back out. We'll see. Thanks

[Louis Z]

jayrc I hope you havent given up on them completely. Possible that you can continue the food cultures? If too time consuming to try raising the larvae maybe try once a month but not every run. As for the cultures rotifers can be kept outside in tubs w/o supervision- technique described in Joyce wilkersons book (almost a set it and forget it). Try adding an ounce of the paramecium culture to the outside stinky tanks-if they are there they can survive by themselves with little bit of food added once in a while. The copepods can be added to your refugium - so that later you might want to filter them out to culture in large#s again. For the algae maybe keep two bottles going in the window each with a different start time. I would hate for you to loose your cultures since you already paid money for them and would have to shell out cash to restart. Thanks Louis Z.