My battle with ich

[brad23]

Well I got ich in my main tank and every fish has it. I tried to save a Naso that broke out with it.

I'm treating ruby reef and using a 15w UV unit with about 70gph flow through it. Hopefully I can beat it.

I noticed today one of my lineatus had some fin missing on its rear fin, hopefully that will not weaken it to much.

I also haven't seen any of the fish rub them selfs yet or breath hard. Quite odd.

I'll keep you updated on my battle.

[hounddog01]

Good Luck. Ich sucks!

[FloatingFish]

I had a problem with Ich on my Blue Tang it would come and go so I tried that Ruby Reef but that stuff didnt seem to do nothing. So I got a Cleaner shrimp and that seemed to take care of it. Unless you go somthing that likes shrimp.

Good Luck

[GreenBay1]

Ich seems to be a regular battle for you Brad. I hope you can nip it in the butt fast.

[brad23]

ruby reef seems to work some and not others, I had a cleaner shrimp but my blue throat ate it.

What about a cleaner wrasse? I know it will not live but will it eat the ich?

[David MC Lee]

I 2nd the Cleaner shrimp. Keep two in my tank at all times for my 4 tangs.

[Dave Dunbar]

Brad did you ever try to raise the tank temp? Seems that if you do it real slow to about 82-85 that will kill the parisites. I tried it on some small clowns in a fish only tank and seems to work. Dont know about having corals and such in the tank but pretty sure they can handle it if done real slow!!! Just a thought
Dave

[humbugy]

two cleaner shrimp for 3 tangs, no problems

[Horace]

At this point, a cleaner probably wont help at all :(. I think, like most things (garlic) are more of a preventitive meausure rather than treatment. I do have a cleaner myself and hopefully will never have a problem. I am considering getting a powder blue tang and I may just add another cleaner just for a bit more peace of mind...

[brad23]

I'm not going to raise my temp to 85 and watch my SPS die, it runs 81.5 right now

The ich looked about the same this morning but everything is still eating

[Horace]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=8280839#post8280839 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by brad23
I'm not going to raise my temp to 85 and watch my SPS die, it runs 81.5 right now

The ich looked about the same this morning but everything is still eating

Actually, your SPS would likely be ok up to about that temp. Any over and you will have problems. There are several people who allow their tanks to get that hot. Mine has got over 83 on several occasions with no problems at all.

[lcashman]

I would also agree with raising the temp.
The other alternative that I can think of would be hyposalinity.
Most corals will not tolerate lowering the specific gravity to 1.019 or lower.

[Benny Z]

i know this is a highly scrutinized approach, but is isolating the fish in a qt tank and running copper completely out of the question?

i have some established base rock i'd be willing to sacrifice for bio filtration in exchange for some frags down the road if you decide this is your only option.

[brad23]

I would have done this but I don't want to strip the tank apart again to get them out.

[LegoZ81]

copper + rock = bad deal, it soaks up the copper and makes it VERY difficult to treat accurately.

[LegoZ81]

My suggestions and opinion: Raise the tank temp as high as you are comfortable with (the suggested 85F is ideal), continue Ruby Reef on a slightly higher dosing rate, soak all foods in garlic (feed soaked food already containing garlic (formula 1/2 pellets), slightly drop salinity to a still coral safe level (1.023?) to help the fish export salt and therefor gain some energy to help fight off infection.

The parasites have to drop off the fish (and be free swimming to be killed by any medications/treatments (even freshwater dips don't always work)

Raising the tank temp will speed the life cycle of the ICH parasite up and get it off the fish for the meds to take effect.

Garlic supposedly boosts the fishes immune system and makes them less "tastey" to the parasites which increases the probability that the parisite will leave the host.

You already have the ruby reef, you might as well continue to dose it.

If you are even going to consider moving some/the fish to QT lmk ASAP, I will help get a QT setup that will not be your typical death tank scenario.

Good luck!

[brad23]

I'm going to keep doing things the way i am for now. The ich is all falling off again.

I still don't notice any hard breathing or scracthing. I raised the temp and have been using garlic with all food and I'm going to try and feed three times a day.

I haven't lost any fish yet.

[Benny Z]

also, the suggestion you made of possibly adding a cleaner wrasse would be a good idea imho, especially if you plan to add more fairies/flashers. like you said, it may die, but if you have enough fairies it could be possible that it will have enough work to do to stay healthy. fairies are very prone to ich outbreaks, as i'm sure you're well aware.

[brad23]

I don't know if I agree with you when you say Fairy’s get ich a lot. Out of all the different types of fish I've kept they seem to be one of the hardiest. The last time I had ich in the tank both wrasses I had took it very well and it didn't even look like it affected them while a angel and goby died.

It took 5 weeks of ich in QT + being moved house to kill my super male Scotts wrasse.

[brad23]

Well not much luck, nothing has died yet but it keeps coming and going every 12 hours.

What I'm doing must be helping some or my fish would have been dead already.

I'll see how it goes, if I lose a fish I'll have to pull all of them and take my chance in the death tank.

[Benny Z]

do you have a hob filter with established media ready to go? i know louis said he'd get one going for you on his tank. i've also got some spares if you need one.

i'd really get your fish in there asap and run the uv on that tank.

[brad23]

I have a hob filter but I don't have anything cycled.

[Benny Z]

get it going...yesterday.

what about a filter sock...have you been using one? if so, you might be able to sacrifice it by cutting it up and sticking pieces of it in the hob chamber. it should have plenty of bio bacteria. just watch for an ammonia spike as often as possible and do large water changes if necessary.

run low sg and high temp...no lights. stick a bunch of short pvc pieces in there for the fish to hide in.

[brad23]

I'd have to cycle the QT tank and who knows how long that will take.

[Benny Z]

no, you just need cycled media. that's why i asked if you're currently using a filter sock on your 75g. you can use that for the media if so.

[brad23]

I used cycled media a few weeks ago and it didn't work. I had a spike in my water levels and moved the Tang into the 75g and that's what started the ich.

[LegoZ81]

PLEASE LISTEN VERY CLOSELY.

Plain and simple you cannot fully cycle any bio filter material in the main tank when you have liverock.
The liverock performs the mass of the biological filtration.
I have been repeating this over and over again; I don't understand why no one believes me...

What you end up with is a seeded filter, not a fully cycled one. This filter is not ready to take on the bio load of the QT tank.

Time has to be given for the bacteria colony to "grow out" in filter on the QT tank prior to adding fish.
It needs food however.
Here's how:



Seed the filter in the main tank.
Setup the QT tank and place the filter on in (match main tank levels).
Fully Cycle it by adding 100% clear ammonia (if it foams when shaken it is not ok to use, it also HAS to be clear) to reach tank concentration of 4ppm. I have used Jewel generic clear ammonia before but that was a very long time ago. Ensure the only ingredient is ammonia and that it does not foam!
Hold ammonia at 4ppm until nitrite spikes and nitrate starts rising Hold this dosage until ready to stock the qt tank.
Have new water ready to do a 100% water change in qt (age this water at least 24 hours)
Perform a 100% water change and get the fish in there within 2 hours so the colony does not die off, make sure this water matches main tank parameters.

You should have zero spike in ammonia as the rate you were adding ammonia should be MUCH higher than the rate that the fish will produce it.

Start using qt/hospital tank with whichever method of treatment you wish.

BIOWheel filters imho are the 100% best thing to use on QT tank setups, just float the biowheel in the sump and it will not become as heavily colonized with bacteria as it would running in the filter. This will help keep it from becoming a nitrate factory.

Good luck!

I can also help with new setup fishless cycles with established liverock or in new base rock only setups, let me know.

[brad23]

I found this out the hard way.

You could also use food to do what is mentioned above but the nitrates would get up there, but either way unless I add LR it will take at least two weeks to cycle the QT tank

[LegoZ81]

nitrates will get up there with straight ammonia also...
amonnia converts to nitrite into nitrate no matter the source of ammonia

also this way you known how much ammonia the filter can handle, you know it will be ready for the fish. with the food method you don't know for sure.

[Benny Z]

nitrates aren't going to hurt your fish short term. but even if you are concerned about trates, just do frequent water changes.

[brad23]

Well I'm going to start it back up when I get home and put some food in it to get it going.

after doing a lot of reading on kick ich I don't have to much faith in it working.

[Benny Z]

um, did you not read what louis said about using straight ammonia?

[Horace]

Hey louis, I have had 4 sponge filters sitting in my sump for several weeks, would you say they are fully colonized and able to handle a QT now? If so, Brad, I may be able to let you use them with my HOB filter....its rated for 65g

[Benny Z]

i would say go for it. it's a start if nothing else. just monitor ammonia as often as possible and if you see it rise, do a large water change. it should at least get him going...

it'll definately be better than simply throwing a handful of bio balls in the tank...which, as i understand it, was the last unsuccessful method employed.

might also still throw in some pure ammonia to see how quickly it processes it...it'll help jumpstart it if nothing else.

[MattAranda]

LegoZ, I just recently set up my 150 and I have a live sand band that is about 3-4 inches and live rock in the tank. I didn't read up a lot about the tank before I got it because I found it as a real good deal on ebay. The guy that I got it from told me to let it sit for a week or two and then try adding damsels and chromis in to get the tank to cycle. I set the tank up on 9/24/06 and added 8 damsels and chromis and a few have died off. Some insight has been given that this may be due to an ammonia spike. I could tell the fish were sick because they were swimming around like they just drank a case of bud light and wouldnt eat. Their gills started to turn a darker pink to red color. Is my tank going through a natural cycling? The snails/hermits/bristle worms/crabs/and pistol shrimp are thriving and loving life. Is my tank going through its natural cycling?

[LegoZ81]

Kurt,
No, they will not be fully colonized. They will be seeded, but not fully colonized. Even floating bioballs will work IF properly colonized first if there is adequate water flow assuming there is enough of them.

[LegoZ81]

In the future please do not use fish to cycle a tank it's cruel.
The gills are changing color due to being burned by the ammonia.

Have you tested the water?

do you have results for:
pH
Ammonia
NitrIte
NitrAte
Salinity

How many pounds of live rock do you have and where did you get it from?

Was it shipped?

MattAranda, I'd highly recommend reading the Maturity issues thread, there is a ton of insight there:
http://archive.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=249112

[brad23]

I have as many bio balls as I can fit in a filter sock and stuffed in my AQ500. The bio balls will give more surface area than a sponge would.

I put some food in a hour ago (two cubes) who sells ammonia?

This ich is the strangest case I've seen they come and go in 12 hours or less. The fish had it quite bad this morning and there was nothing onn them when I went home for lunch. And nothing on them yesterday at lunch.

I've never seen it come and go so fast.

[LegoZ81]

Also what are you doing with all the damsels?

It is not going to fun tearing the tank down to get these fish back out later.

Here is some info on cycling:
http://www.reefcentral.com/FAQ/general/index.php

Here is the how to fishless cycle:
http://www.tropicalfishcentre.co.uk/Fishlesscycle.htm

[GreenBay1]

Go to any grocery store that has a cleaning row. You can find ammonia there. Cubs, Walmart, Schnuks, Kroger, they all have it.

[LegoZ81]

The higher temp will help speed the cycle of the ich, i'd run the max safe temp in the qt tank. and add an airstone (disolved oxygen declines as temp rises and the fish will have gill damage from the ich.

"I have used Jewel generic clear ammonia before but that was a very long time ago. Ensure the only ingredient is ammonia and that it does not foam!"

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=8319866#post8319866 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by brad23

I put some food in a hour ago (two cubes) who sells ammonia?

[smorrow5773]

For emergency quarantine, I have always used Amquel+ to immediately get rid of ammonia/nitrites. Water should be changed frequently when combatting ick anyway. Amquel does lower the oxygen content though so you have to have good aeration. For a 2 week stay in quarantine, I use about half of the $10 bottle from Petco and found cupramine the only sure fire ick remedy (have to monitor levels though as it will initially drop after first dose, even with baretank)

[brad23]

Hypo is suppose to be the best cure for ich, but Hypo or copper are the only real ways to get rid of ich

[Horace]

I find it hard to believe my filters arent fully colonized. They have been in my sump for over a month. Also remember that I dose carbon sources to my tank which increases the bacteria growth in the tank. I also dose actual bacteria strains 3x weekly.

Just dosing a carbon source would probably help cycle the tank too I woudl think.

[brad23]

You have to realize the bio load, adding sponge filter to your system that already is fully cycled will not generate a huge colony on the sponge filter as your system doesn't need the extra bacteria.

Then when you move the media to a fresh QT tank that say has 4 fish in it the filter doesn't have a big enough colony to keep up with the bio load of the fish as it doesn't have 50lbs of LS and 100lbs of LR to supplement it.

[brad23]

Oh I bought the ammonia but I'm probably still going to be looking at 2 weeks at least.

[Benny Z]

i still don't understand why you're not taking kurt up on his offer for the sponges. you're starting with a fresh tank and fresh bio balls. it will take a long time to cycle this way. if you get kurt's media it will at least seed the other new media and it will also rapidly increase its own bacteria to meet the larger demands.

there is no disadvantage to getting kurt's media.

!!!

[brad23]

I'll probably hit him up for it.

The thing was I had seeded media and I tunred the filter off for a week.

[LegoZ81]

did the bioballs remain wet?

[brad23]

about half of them did

[LegoZ81]

you might be ok then just keep testing your water very important or you won't know when it cycles, i'd recommend graphing the test results.

[Horace]

I now understand the whole cycling thing...I never worried about it before because I cured my LR in my tank long before fish ever went in there. That curing process created more than enough ammonia to get the tank up and running. Then I just added fish slowly over time.

I agree, my sponges certainly are not having to handle a high bioload and are likely just seeded. I figured they would just get populated with bacteria over time....However time is not what is needed, HIGH BIOLOAD on only those sponges is what is needed. Since I have several other bacteria laden things in my tank, these sponges are probably doing very little in the way of reducing ammonia...

[brad23]

Well the ich is still there but nothing has died yet.

The QT tank should be cycled, I had to add LR to speed it up. Will move all fish in the next few days.

Ruby might of helped I don't know, but it killed both my green birdsnests and made some of my other SPS close up.

http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b114/bigwrxguy/IMG_0866.jpg

[GreenBay1]

Ouch, sorry to here that Brad.

[lcashman]

I can trade you a frag of the green birdsnest when you're ready.

LMK
Leland

[brad23]

Thanks lcashman, the other green birdsnest I had was thr frag I got of you at the meet and they both died at the exact same time.

The bridsnest above had tripled in size.

But the three other pink birdsnest are doing fine.