What is my problem

[Semi newbie]

Why do SPS hate me? I have put in 5 frags in the last couple of weeks and none of them appear truly happy! They each appear to have some bleaching going on. Am I doing something wrong? I placed them low in the tank to get them acclimated and all my parameters are fine. Am I missing some magic trick????? Oh Yeah my flow is pretty good too so I don't think that is an issue but what do I know? Should I just let them be and see what they do? I am frustrated!!!!!!:confused:

[Playfair]

I hope your not including the pieces from me in that sorrow! Have you checked your water params?
Also, fresh frags often get stunted for a few weeks... If all else fails, do a nice water change! Good luck

[Semi newbie]

Well, here is the scoop. I told you about the one blue tipped, that one died right away. The other two are still there but not doing much. The polyps on the green one aren't coming out since two nights ago and I didn't even do anything to it or add anything to the tank until yesterday after the meeting. I am feeling so dumb because I am not sure what they are supposed to do and look like!:rolleyes: I hear about rtn and bleaching and blah blah and I just get confused! I am glad to hear that they sometimes get stunted, maybe that is it. I will let them be and see what happens. Thanks for the reply and I am trying to do right by my new kids, I promise I would never hurt them intentionally!!!!!

[aquapimp]

I only start frags low in the tank when they are entering a system with radically different lighting intensity or spectra. For example: Mother colony growing nicely under 220w. of VHO's. Frag taken, then placed directly under 500w. of halide w/ some actinics. I'm glad you mentioned current. "heavy, but indirect" usually works for me. If all seems to be correct, as Playfair suggested, it will certainly take some time (usually) to "feel at home", and resume growth. How are "easy SPS" doing in the tank? Another Playfair suggestion is always good: H20 change.

Tom

[reefaquaria]

Dave, you posted last month with the same problem. How did you make out?

[Gary Majchrzak]

Some reef critters {certain SPS corals among them} need a "mature" system to acclimate and survive.It used to be common to recommend waiting two years until attempting ANY SPS coral!{Advice I'll shamefully admit ignoring as well}.....That being said, here's some consolation {!},Lynn: I'm sure all the 'old-timers'have tried a coral or two that wouldn't survive- even in their "mature" system.And the pain is worsened when it is a not just a frag, but a whole colony. Don't get discouraged!

[dmorel]

New SPS frags are so scarry for me SN,

I did go through this a little while ago, and I might be about to go through it again since I got a few frags on saturday.

One thing that will be very interesting for me to see is how the frags from different peoples tanks do in mine.

I get the impression that my tank params are much closer to kevin's then they are to dave's and I have frags from each of them (well one was from dave's nano, so that doesn't count, but he brought me one from his main tank too...)

I haven't seen gary's tanks in person, so I am not going to guess on that one, but I have some of his stuff too, so we shall see what happens.

The extremely frustrating thing (as you seem to know) is that a frag can do poorly for seemingly no reason at all.

I know my water is fine, I know my flow is good. I have a hardy frag of SPS right there, but this new one is dying before my eyes...
I wish I had some magic advice, but patience and experimentation seem to be the only things that work.
If you're freaking out about it (like I have a tendency to do) you might want to consider drinking until you pass out. It's not a great option, but at least it gives you something to do other then try and decide if that frag looks better or worse then it did 15 minutes ago...

Hang in there,
-dm

[Gary Majchrzak]

If it makes anyone feel better, I used to worry about mushrooms when 'acclimating' them!!! :lol:

[Semi newbie]

How funny Dave! I should drink until I pass out. :D I still see flesh on the corals so I am hoping they are acclimating to my tank and will recover! I worry about everything in my tank when acclimating it!!!! I am planning on a water change this week, hopefully tonight! I will keep you posted and Dave thanks for sharing the misery!!!!!!!!! Lynn

[Stoli]

Lynn:

I'm not sure if you posted this already, but did you check your basic water conditions: Salinity, ammo, nitrite, nitrate, ph, alk, calc?

That would be my first step. I might then compare those parameters with those from the tanks in which the frags were originally located.

I would also consider, as Playfair mentioned, a big water change, or several smaller ones over a few days. BTW: What kind of water are you using (filtered, tap, etc.)? Currently, I use tap run through a faucet filter. While I have no evidence that the filter helps (see Todd's unfiltered tap water tank), it does make me feel good.

As several of us have mentioned we've all lost sps and other corals on occasion, but if several are having problems from different tanks, I'd probably start with the basics as above.

One last thing, try to post a detailed description of what you believe the corals are doing/not doing. ie, polyps not extending at all, coral turning white from the base or at the tips, etc. This might help a bit.

Also, dmorel's suggestion about drinking heavily is always a good one. I personally favor scotch, but any form of alcoholic imbibing would work. Don't give up.

[ReeferMac]

I personally favor scotch, but any form of alcoholic imbibing would work.

And if that Still doesn't work, a couple of Bong-hits will most likely wrap you up so tight in the colors, that you'll forget all about something dying.

Until you notice it again, but by then the Munchie's will have set in, and you'll be too busy scrounging through the cupboards in your Kitchen looking for something that goes good with PeanutButter and Chocolate Syrup

(not that I've ever been there before or anything...)
:smokin:

- Mac
(hopefully by the time I leave work I'll be in a more serious mood and can offer you a helpful suggestion :D)

[Gary Majchrzak]

Lynn, some of this advice is common knowledge, and some has not been scientifically proven with a control or placebo!

[Zmann]

Kevin . :lolspin:

[Semi newbie]

BETTER LIVING THROUGH CHEMISTRY!!!!!!!!!:dance: :hmm3:

[Stoli]

Gary:

I have substantial anectdotal evidence of the munchie effect!!. While I have never attempted a controlled test, I firmly believe that statistical analysis will bear out these findings.

Mac:

Icecream goes very well with both peanut butter and chocolate syrup. See response to Gary.:bum:

[ReeferMac]

Newbie,

You just found out why SPS Corals are considered some of the hardest animals to care for :-)

Seriously, some of the points brought up really do hit home, and if you think about it, all kinda go together...
I'm not trying to make any suggestion what-so-ever on your abilities, but if you think about it:

"Tank must be mature"... Just means the water's had time to settle, the system's stabilized, filtration has gone into effect and equilibriated (is that even a word?). It also means the caretaker has had 2 years to learn many things, and hone their skills...

It's really another way of saying these aren't newbie-corals. By all means however, I don't mean that to be directed towards you in any way (for all I know, you've been doing this for 15 years, and it's just a newly setup tank).

They're also horribly mis-understood. Even Biologist's are speculating to answers for a lot of questions. Fact of the matter is the ocean's are just one area of our planet that hasn't received a lot of attention in the past. As science learns more, it filter's down to people like us. I myself have gotten in frag shipments, and have half of 'em die on me. To this day I don't know why some did, some didn't. All received the same treatment. It's just one of those things. I've had great luck with Anemone's, and keep a large collection of SPS, but for the life of me can't keep a Blastumosa alive... Go figure :sad2:

I honestly don't believe that there's a "Magic Bullet" out there, that's going to prove to be "the thing" that makes these animals any easier to keep. It could be a contaminant, could be a nutrient, could be light, or damn near anything. Fact of the matter is, every tank/system is different, and every coral is going to react differently to it.

A good example I can give you is some Brown M. Digi that's floating around the club. I bought it from a LFS that claimed the tip's turned a HOT PINK under 10K's... Having one on my refugium, I said ***. Put it my reef, let it get acclimated for a few weeks, then I took a frag and put it in my refugium. Took about 8 weeks, but no-joke, it started to turn color. Another 8 weeks, the damned thing was the hottest hot-pink you've ever seen on the tips (Dave, Keith, Chucker, Jamie, you've all seen it). Everyone wanted a frag. Everyone got Brown Monti... No colored Tip's. The 10K lamp I was running at the time, was one of Dave's old bulbs.. He had brown Monti. Keith's got about the Brightest, Bluest tank I've ever seen... Brown Monti. I just this weekend got another 10K lamp for my refugium again, and will try growing out some more frags of it in there shortly, but... I can't say for certain it's going to get Pink Tip's again.

It just illustrate's how complicated of a species they are. Million different things could be causing your troubles, and to be honest, you'll probably never know for sure. A good place to start looking though is to thoroughly test everything you can. Bring a sample of water to your LFS and ask them to test it (for comparison's sake... Test kits go bad sometimes). Start w/ the basics and work your way up to the more complicated possibilities. There's volume's of research written on the matter, and even a couple of decent hobbiest's books you could put down o your wish list. But at this time, it's just something that isn't known. The Magic combination still elude's us.

There are however some good general guidlines, and a lot of things to "understand" about the animals (which usually get's learned over those 2 years). Water tolerance is minimal, and they do take time to adjust: changing environments is a very serious deal for them (not even getting into lights, just the water is a big enough problem). So any time you bring a new coral in, it's going to be a nervous couple of weeks. It merely underscores the importance of getting Captive Raised Coral's.

There will be plenty of opportunity to get more though, don't worry about that! Keep plugging, keep reading, and keep asking questions! Makes the time go by faster :reading:

- Mac
(Feeling much better now that work's over for the day).

[Zmann]

I guess the only thing I disagree with is this mature tank thing. Figure this one out. My tank was brand new Sept 3rd. By Sept 15th I had 13 different acro frags in there from Playfair and never lost a one. These frags were FRAGS, very tiny. Not that I'm not grateful because he knows I am, but point is its not tank maturity its water quality. By the way you don't need a mature tank to have good water quality. :D

[dmorel]

By the way you don't need a mature tank to have good water quality. :D

But what DO you need???

My water *tests* great... But looking at my tank I know it's not.
My flow is definately OK at this point...

Tell me THIS secret please, and I will hook you up with a nice bowl of ice cream, peanut butter, and chocolate ;)

-dm

[Gary Majchrzak]

Zmann: It's not only "tank maturity", like ReeferMac stated so well, or simply water quality that guarantees success with SPS frags... The aquarium you set up Sept. 3rd wasn't your first. The contents came from another system, and you had learned a great deal from the previous experiences of the earlier system. The VERY first time you set up a reef {or anyone else for that matter} did you add an acropora in the first couple of months and see it thrive? Are you still maintaining it? Maybe, but probably not! Stability {maturity} establishes itself with the passage of time in regards to a captive reef system. Knowledge of how to preserve the stability plays a part as well. And certain corals {like SPS} need a degree of stability.{It's amazing how tolerant they can be,as well!} A new system has many changes to go through,some call them cycles,before it reaches an equilibrium. It can even involve lighting,feeding regime of the caretaker,temp. extremes, development of microfauna,etc, etc. Honestly, we have ALL failed to keep certain corals alive at one point or another. Anybody that says different is not telling the truth! 100% survivability is great, and CAN be achieved with 13 frags. I don't think it would surprise even long -time "experts" on these boards if one or two or more failed to acclimate, however. Each reef aquarium is unique, from inhabitants {different terpinoids}, to water flow, to water quality and so on. The very same water that a certain coral thrives amongst in one tank could be moved to another reefkeepers system with poor results.{I've done this.} "Tank maturity" is not a popular concept in many circles. But it involves more than just water quality. And you are correct- you don't need a mature tank to have good water quality. Most people that start up captive reefs have better water quality at 'start-up!' than a year down the road! {For those that have not seen them, Zmann has maintained several SPECTACULAR reef systems for some time, and is quite knowledgable on the subject!}

[Semi newbie]

Okay I tested my water this evening and here is what I came up with: calcium 500 (I know it is high:( ) alk 2.8 (I know it is low:( ), PH 8.2, nitrate 0, nitrite 0, ammonia 0. The tank "looks" fine. Like I said earlier all the SPS still have their flesh just turned white in some areas except for the blue tipped Acro. I added buffer to help bring up my alk and will stop adding kalk. This is the right response isn't it? I have yet to try the b-ionic stuff. I wanted to use up my kalk powder first. Do you think that is better stuff? What about the Aragamite? Any body use that in their makeup water? How easy it is to get confused. Tom gave me a whole lesson in this stuff which I am grateful for since I have somewhat of a better understanding of it but I am still on a learning curve. Thanks everyone....Lynn

[ToddsReef]

Lynn,

Unfortunately no matter how hard we try to answer this question it is likely that we won't be able to.

I think the most important things are to make changes slowly (I learned this from one of the local adulterers...what I mean is, he has a mistress) and try to pay close attention to the differences between the "good days" and the "bad days" on the reef.

Once you get to know a coral well you can tell at a glance which type of day it is having (sort of like a CHF-er...Lynn knows what I mean) and you will automatically tweak those things that you have control over in your reef (current, feedings, water changes, carbon, skimming, lighting, calcium, alkalinity, additives, what is nearby that might be stinging it, etc. etc. etc.) to provide more good days. Gary didn't discover VibraGro overnight and it took Kevin months to figure out how to feed Echnophyllia, but they achieved these things with persistence and attention to detail over long periods of time.

Another thing worth pointing out is that we all have frags that do miserably and one of the things that you will learn to do quickly is HIDE THEM! :D If I get a chance tomorrow I will post a picture of the AMAZING pink stylophora that I got from Dave, I have worked so hard to make that thing happy and so far all I have done is kill it slowly over the last six months, now I understand that old saying...there is nothing worse than a slow death.

Good luck and hang in there!

Todd

[cperson]

Here's some things I can think of...
In general, I think the water testing that most of us do is important but we are just scratching the surface. There may be elements, bacteria, etc. that are present (or not present) that we are significant in some way to some types of corals.
In specific, Lynn, do you have many soft corals in your tank? I've heard that some of them are incompatible with some SPS. And I know of a couple tanks with several large soft corals that can't seen to keep SPS well. Some other's may be able to chime in with some "known" incompatibilities here, but I can't say myself.

BTW, just for the record, the only specimen I killed other than a xenia crash was a piece of Dave Playfair's flowering leather (Remember that!). Things I though died I find weeks later, fallen behind my rockwork, still alive in the dark. Luck definitely plays a roll here!

[Zmann]

:confused:

[Zmann]

My rock was right out of Johns tanks. Matter of fact it was 2 days old in his tank. He just got it in. My sand was Southdown with no live sand added. My corals were Dave's the same as everyone else's . So I'm pretty positive this blows the theory away that you have to have a mature tank. Besides there are a lot of mature tanks in this club that are keeping SPS and keeping color but are not really growing.
Here is another reason why I believe its water quality. Why does Playfairs corals have brighter tips and all around better color then the same corals in my tank. His are under 175w MH and mine are directly under 400w MH. Please don't tell me tank maturity. Mine have great color but unfortunately I have to say his are nicer.

In my other tanks SPS didn't thrive like it does in this one but nor did it die. I'm not saying that I haven't killed things or things haven't died in my other tanks because they did .

I have come to the off the wall conclusion that this tank is doing so well because of consistency. With my other tanks I added B-ionic when I had time during the day and anytime for that matter. Now its everyday at 5:30am at the required amounts that it needs. I also make sure I keep up on my top off which I believe is another reason why its doing so well its not fluctuating. I also change water consistently, 5gals on a 40gal tank once a week. I change my filters at exactly 3 days after I put them in. I have a skimmer rated for a 200gal tank on a 40gal that skims the crap out of it.

To be totally honest with you I have no idea why this tank is doing so well and I never will but its not because anything was mature when I started it.

Craig,
What you said about certain softies having certain effects on SPS could be true. I heard this from Playfair one time. I also had an experience in my 120g. One night I fragged a Neon Green Sinularia that was about 5" away from a mother colony of SPS that I had for awhile and by the next morning that colony was totally wiped out.

I'm the last person to be able to answer any questions about SPS in reef tanks. Trust me I have had bigger problems in my reefs then a few frags of SPS dying. Just try to shoot for stability, that's about the only advice I can give.
:confused:

[Gary Majchrzak]

Semi: I forget to mention that I know of a few reefers with excellent quality water in mature{7 year old} systems. They can grow my montiporas. They cannot keep ANY of my acroporas alive, despite SEVERAL attempts. Some have trouble with 'shroom' type corals, yet can easily grow 'leathers'. As a matter of fact, each system I have seen usually has a type of coral that seems to do particularly well. And ALL are more crowded with corals than an actual reef. Terpenoids are chemicals put out by certain species of corals that will inhibit the growth of other coral species.You cannot see these chemicals, but they are there just the same. I once removed a large cladiella from my 220. The response in growth from corals 6' in distance away from the cladiella was amazing. I don't know what coral community you are keeping ,Semi, but unless there is a big softie population in your tank, I don't think terpenoids are your problem. As a matter of fact, I really don't believe you have an unusual problem. If you cannot keep any SPS right now, with the passage of time you WILL have some growing......Pocillipora and seriatopora are usually the first SPS species to colonize a denuded reef.Maybe you should try these corals. I have a pink pocillipora frag with your name on it! .......BTW, kalkwasser{pickling lime} and B-ionic will achieve the same end result if used properly. I've seen SPS grown with both of these as well as kalkreactors. I use the cheapest method- pickling lime. Zmann: The maturing process of a reef takes into account that the 'new' reefer is getting a grip on their captive systems' equilibrium. {ie.problem algae,pests,care requirements,etc.}.In essence,both system and keeper are maturing. Although not necessary, It's probably a good recommendation!

[Zmann]

Gary,
Got a question for you because I think you know the answer. What is the common name of that shrimp Goby I have and what is the Scientific name and where can I find a picture of it? I searched the internet for like 3 hours one night and came up with nothing. Of course if I'm searching under a non-common name for it this would be the reason why I'm getting skunked.

Remember awhile back when I posted a question about mated pairs of shrimps. Well it still doesnt seem like she's laid all of her eggs. The weird part about your answer to one of my questions on that post was that you said that both your shrimps carried eggs. Well sure enough both the skunks are bearing eggs and both the peppermints are bearing eggs. I heard noises coming from the tank one night so I sat there real quiet and the next thing I know I hear He-Haw. Sounds like I might have a couple of in-breeders in there that tank!

[Gary Majchrzak]

Zmann, your goby is stonogobius yasha, a species that recently entered the North American trade.It is commonly called a "Whiteray Shrimp Goby", although I am sure the common name is totally fudged by many wholesalers and retailers! It is a REALLY cool fish. Randy might be able to supply more info on it...? It's amazing how the price on these shrimp gobies shot up along with their popularity!
I'm glad to hear the shrimps proved me right! They supply an excellent natural source of zooplankton when reproducing!

[ReeferMac]

Jamie,

Cleaner and Peppermint shrimp (as well as several other species no doubt), are hermaphroditic... Having male and female parts, they get to do it both ways. But you need a pair, as one can't fertilize itself.

- Mac