Sand sifters dead

[Dawn II]

About 3 years ago, I had 4 sand sifters. A couple of months ago, it looked like I was down to 1. I added 3 a couple of weeks ago, and shortly after I found one dead, and I feel like I was down to one. I bought 3 more on Sunday- today I found another one dead, it looked partly eaten. I have had a large red serpent star for about 3 years- she is A-ok. What is happening to the sand sifters? Thank you, Dawn.

[Charlie97L]

are we talking snails or stars, when you say "sand sifters" also, what else lives in your tank?

[Dawn II]

Sand sifting stars. Chevron & Hippo tang hectori, scooter dragonet, whiteray shrimp goby w/ pistol shrimp, blue green chromises. fire fishes,lawnmower blenny, few small hermits. i don't think these are killing them.

[Letmegrow]

They are likely starving to death, they do not eat algae or diatoms, they are predators and are eating your sand bed critters. They can deplete your tank of worms and pods very quickly.

I would stop purchasing the stars and inform the source you are getting them from what they eat and how to care for them.

[The steven liu]

You need to feed them if you want to keep them alive. get some sinking food and place it directly under them.

[Dawn II]

As mature as my tank is- why now? I only got them as "clean up"- not to feed them.

[Letmegrow]

Like I said, they do not eat what you wanted to be "cleaned up".

They eat fauna, they are not grazers or scavengers but predators.

They are the wrong animals for your tank.

If that is not the issue, check your temperature and salinity.

[Dawn II]

Letmegrow- You have the wrong critter- sand sifting star (Astropectin)- is DEFINITELY a scavenger, not a predator-cleaning up detritus, etc. that is why he is called a sand sifter- much like my Hectori goby. Do a search on Google - liveaquaria.com has a write up and picture - or go to page 635 of Julian Sprung's "Reef Aquarium" vol. 3. Oh-my parameters are fine.
Dawn.

[LeslieH]

Dawn, not all references are right or have complete information. Astropecten isn't just a scavenger. It eats pretty much whatever it can as it moves across the sand - live worms, molluscs, smaller stars, crustacea, detritus, dead animals, etc. They can rapidly deplete a sand bed and do indeed starve to death. Another factor is that they can be surprisingly sensitive and may be dying due to stress in from capture, shipping, handling, or not being acclimated.

[Dawn II]

It is a scavenger, not a predator- if you see this info. somewhere- post the source. Yes, you are correct, my sand bed may be too depleted How ever, I do have detirtus on the surface. They were acclimated about 2 hrs- twice the acclimation I do on fish.

[McBeck]

Dawn - are you familiar with Dr. Ron Shimek? Here are a few notes from him indicating Astropecten is not a scavenger:

http://archive.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=667335&highlight=Astropecten

http://archive.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=225436&highlight=Astropecten

http://archive.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=59115&highlight=Astropecten

[Dawn II]

Is he the Instant Ocead guy?

[McBeck]

No, he is a nationally recognized marine biologist who specializes in invertebrates. This used to be his forum, but he left RC in Jan this year.

[LeslieH]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=7170333#post7170333 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Dawn II
It is a scavenger, not a predator- if you see this info. somewhere- post the source. Yes, you are correct, my sand bed may be too depleted How ever, I do have detirtus on the surface. They were acclimated about 2 hrs- twice the acclimation I do on fish.

First off, there's my own unpublished notes from 25 years ago when I was examining stomach contents of many different inverts including Astropecten. But if you want something in black and white try these:

Distribution patterns and selective feeding in two Astropecten species (Asteroidea:Echinodermata) from Cleveland Bay, northern Queensland

s Lemmen, PW Arnold and RA Birtles

Abstract

During 1985, Astropecten zebra was concentrated in shallow inshore areas of Cleveland Bay, northern Queensland, Australia, whereas Astropecten velitaris was found only further offshore. The two species had an overlapping distribution in depths between 5 and 13 m, but juveniles (maximum arm length ≤ 16 mm) were virtually absent from areas of co-occurrence: A. zebra juveniles were largely restricted to inshore areas, whereas A. velitaris juveniles were predominantly found in offshore areas.

Analysis of stomach contents demonstrated that both species are selective feeders, consuming mainly bivalves and gastropods, which constituted nearly 90% of the diet in A. zebra and nearly 75% in A. velitaris. The diet of the latter is complemented largely by crustaceans (17.1%). Crustaceans were proportionately better represented in the stomach contents of A. velitaris than in bottom samples. In contrast, although foraminiferans and polychaetes dominated the bottom samples, they were virtually absent from the stomach contents of either species of Astropecten. Both species demonstrated a preference for small prey items.
Marine and Freshwater Research 46(2) 447 - 455

http://www.vliz.be/vmdcdata/macrobel/taxdetails.php?id=5659
The heart-urchin is a component of the diet of a number of demersal fish, especially plaice, and is also eaten by asteroids, notably by Astropecten spec. (Wolff, 1973; De Ridder & Lawrence, 1982; Fish & Fish, 1989; Rees & Dare, 1993).

pet store listing as a carnivore:
http://www.peteducation.com/article.cfm?cls=16&cat=1908&articleid=2183


And a quote from Calfo & Fenner 2003 "Reef Invertebrates" about tank suitability: "With their sensitivity to the imposed rigors of shipping, and forgiving the gross generalizations here, we do not recommend these genera for casual aquarists when so many other beautiful and hard species are available. Some Astropecten are collected in temperate waters off the Carolina coasts and are ill suited for captivity."

[Letmegrow]

Thank-you Leslie and Becky.
You both are a valued asset.

DawnII - Never read anything from liveaquaria and take it seriously. Just because they are selling the product does not mean they know what they are talking about.
Their information is the most generic I have ever seen.
These animals do not come from a wide range as such they suggest, ie. SG 1.020 - 1.025 and temps 72F-75F.

Most of the creatures we buy are from temperatures that average at 81.5F and the is SG 1.025.
This is a constant, not a variable.
Please keep your animals in this Temp and Salinity with as little varient as possible.

[Dawn II]

The 2 links are generalizations- they mention the species- such as damsel, not the indiv. variety- I have never lost a fish, shrimp, etc. to one of them. This includes many tiny stars id by Sprung on page 433- vol. 2 as possibly Asterina. I think the idea that they no longer have enough to eat was valid. Yes- I saw Shimek doing his Instant Ocean "thing" in Orlando last year at the reef conference ( I have a couple of pictures against his giant salt chart). I was so surprised that he would take this opportunity to push Instant Ocean. Also at the conference were Borneman, Martin Moe, and Sprung- We really much enjoyed these 3 well respected men. Anyway, I think the point made - that my sand sifters don't have enough to eat is valid. I will keep the population lower. Thank you for your help. over and out, Regards, Dawn.

[sabergrl]

I also have a sand sifting star (just one... the lfs said my take could support six!!!) and now I'm looking for something to feed to it. Could someone tell me more about sinking food, for instance, is it frozen or dried, what to look for when buying it?

Thanks!

[pufferpoison]

I too was mislead on these sand sifters. It's a shame more people in the industry don't know what their talking about. Now i have a 25 dollar mistake and i don't want it to die because of my ignorance.

[Dawn II]

After I posted this, I had a sand sifter with melty legs- then I lost my red serpent star- Scarlett O'Hara- that I'd had for 2 1/2 yrs. her disc turned a light color, and she decomposed- for lack of better words- in one day (For the past two weeks, when I tried to target feed her, she refused). After that I had another melty sifter, and it was suggested on another forum that one of the sifters brought in a virus- which I believe to be correct. The deaths wreaked havock with my tank, causing temporary coral shut downs and recessions ( I eventually lost an orange fungia I'd had for 2 years plus.). Things happened very swiftly, but they are slowly coming back to normal each day through water changes, carbon, Chemi Pure, etc. I was lucky not to lose shrimps, my very large clam, or fishes. I still have (2) sand sifters in the tank- which I didn't realize were there until lat night- I will examine and determine what to do with them.

[capncapo]

As they say, you can lead a horse to water .....

[IPowderBlueTang]

I also have a sand sifting star, that the local Lfs said was safe, it almost wiped out my snail population. It will catch unhealthy fish and kill them. I feed it chunks of supermarket shrimp so it's content and don't go after the snails or unsuspecting sleeping fish! It also will eat corals as I have seen. Now it resides in a 20 gal with a few snails, tiger cowrie and tiger sea cucumber.

[romunov]

Sounds a standard case of starvation to me...

[Dawn II]

Sudden melty legs and sudden disintegration afyer 2 1/2 years is not starvation. I have tiny things in my tank- Hectori goby, white ray shrimp goby- who fared ok with the starving stars searching out prey at night. I think the other forum (I posted there at the same time) that had a similar experience with virus that wiped out their stars sounds more plausible.

[Javeo]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=7314782#post7314782 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by capncapo
As they say, you can lead a horse to water .....

How true :rolleyes:

[sabergrl]

IPowderBlueTang,

Do you put the shrimp on top of the sand, or push it down in the sand?

Thanks for your help

[Dawn II]

lol

[romunov]

Sudden melty legs and sudden disintegration afyer 2 1/2 years is not starvation.
The star may have had food and reserves for 2 1/2 years. Melting and losing parts is quite common, believed to be cause of starvation.

[Rascal1371]

I used to have one of these in my tank until I started doing research on DSBs and turned up info that they are predatory. I did a ton more research which confirmed this info. (ex: http://www.wetwebmedia.com/sndsftstrfaqs.htm) Based on what I read and IME, they prey on the microfauna (pods, worms, etc. . . ) in the sand bed and on the live rock.

I had mine for over a year and towards the end of that time started to see it more on the rock and sometimes even the glass -- spending less time "sifting" the sand. I concluded it was running out of food in the sand.

Here's the important part. When I removed and returned the star, I noticed a HUGE increase in microfauna in my tank, especially the sandbed. The little worm tracks in my sandbed had all but disappeared but came back within a month. Same with pod activity. Nitrates also dropped after 4-6 weeks. For sifting/detrivore duty, I now use & recommend nassarius snails instead. All of this is anectodal I know, so take it for what it's worth.

For cool-looking and detrivorious sea stars (other than serpant & brittle), I am open to the suggestions & experiences of others.