I Dream Of Jeannie

[Rovert]

http://www.idreamofjeannie.com/idj/NOD.GIF

Ok, since the issue of dues has reared its ugly head again, and many of us are still on the fence, let me ask a question, to look at it a different way.

If we were to do a Barbara Eden 'blink', and suddenly we had a pot of $30 from each of our (probably overestimated) 30 members, what would you propose we do with an estimated $900 that would make EVERYONE happy who paid in? What could we do that would keep our members from the North, South, East and West all happy at the same time?

Just curious to see actual, viable, workable, recommendations, rather than just discussing the concept of dues in the abstract.

[BORECKI]

Drag over Dr. Ron:D for a brain picking session.
Boris.
P.S. Oh, just remembered; make sure he brings over a keg of his homemade brew:celeb1: :beer:

[Rovert]

Boris, I agree that would be nice, but I think we need to look for not just the ideas, but how you would work it.

For instance, if we got Dr. Ron over, where would we host him? Down in Atlantic City near Ed? Up in the Holidome in Rockland County, NY near Ken? No matter what location we chose, people would drop out, because of travel time and distance, and take their dues money with them.

Then there's the expense issue. Ron lives in Montana. Best price for a round trip ticket is $432 (five months in advance), which would burn almost 1/2 the budget for one event. :eek2: Add in a minimum of $200 or so for a two night stay to put him up, another hundred bucks for meals (and beer...) and you'll see the whole budget would be shot. And that doesn't even TOUCH the cost of a meeting hall.

[geoffgarcia]

I am against paying dues for guest speakers personally. If I want to learn more, I'll read a book or ask questions here, or to people in the club.

If dues MUST be collected I'd rather see them go to something more tangible.

How about giving the experienced reefers the money to buy some expensive/exotic/rare corals and then when they are well situated and healthy they frag them for the rest of us?

With 900$ you could get some very nice corals I'm thinking:) Maybe give the 5 most experienced reefers 150$ each to get 1-2 different things (maybe things we vote on?), and make a plan for them to make 1-2 frags a month? Im' not sure on the time table for fragging as I'm a newbie:)

[Rovert]

Geoff, cool idea! Personally, I like it. My picks for two 'candidates' with experience (based on what I saw of their tanks and systems) would be Brian, and Tony.

[Malcolm_C]

If we are going to collect money, it should be for immediate satisfaction only. I say we collect $3 from each member at a meeting then visit the LFS, buy a coral, come back to the house of the host and Frag the coral(details could be worked out on the process). Everyone gets a $3 dollar frag. Guess speakers are cool, but I'm more in to the corals. I think we are just to small for major events, but that's my two cents. unless we collaborate with another club on occasion.
Malcolm

[Rovert]

Geoff's post above reminds me of an idea I had a while ago called the 'critter lottery'.

That 'lottery', would be where we'd all throw in a list of animals we each would like (critters, corals, inverts... whatever...) into a 'hat'. Once per month, we'd draw the name at random, and those who wanted that animal could pool our money to get a group discount, the animals could be ordered for delivery the day of the next meeting, and we could pick it up then. It's a sure way to get folks to show up... that's for sure. :) This way, nobody is forced into anything they don't want, it benefits everyone if a lot of people DO want a thing (lower price, more convenience), and if there are no takers that time around, the name goes back in for another time in the future.

[Rovert]

M, I'm up for that. You have no idea how close you were to getting a 'partner' on a few of the corals from Absolutely Fish, after Tracey's meeting!!! :D

[Fazm79]

I second MD's idea. But Im not sure we could get 30 frags =P

[bahrhoops]

Sorry guys ,
I'm still not sold on the dues idea, If we collect it for stocking our tanks, eventually we won't have room left in our reefs for new corals, I know I've been in that situation and there are others in the club who have loaded tanks (Tony - for one).
Unless someone comes up with a universally agreeable idea for spending the money , were gonna have people who do not want to commit to dues paying.
There is always the idea of having an offshoot club from NJRC which collects dues if there are enough people who want to go that route , or having a North NJRC and South NJRC. - Just an idea since were so spread out but that's kinda wishy-washy.Does any of that sound applicable ?
JMO:D
-steve bahr

[Rovert]

Unless someone comes up with a universally agreeable idea for spending the money , were gonna have people who do not want to commit to dues paying.
Steve, I personally agree with you that dues is not a good idea for us, but there seems to be a remaining segment of our club that thinks that it will bring some magical benefit somehow. So, I posted this to get SPECIFICS from those who have the dues idea in their heads, to give air to any ideas that haven't surfaced already, so we can all look at it together. I thought the 'what if' scenario would get some thoughts out there, to see if someone comes up with something that costs money, and benefits all of us, that we don't have now.

Frankly, I think you'll have to search long and hard to find the kind of totally cool uniqueness that we have now. No dues, no hassles, no politics, just lots of folks havin' fun.

[Spykey]

How about we collect some dues and send all the money to a foundation to save the whales?

really,

About MD's idea. Some of us did that after Tracey's meeting. why make it official? Those who want to be involved, go right ahead. those who don't want to be involved don't feel pressured. It was a fun, cheap and easy way to add some diversity to our tanks. Plus we learned fragging techniques 1st hand.

[forbze16]

I would have to agree with MD and Spykey. The idea of chipping into a coral and collecting frags from it sounds cool. Also I think its being done already on an ad-hoc basis.

Being new to this club I may bring a new perspective, I did start all this after all :eek1:

I think the laid-back hobbiest approach to this club is refreshing. There isn't any pressure, people are genuinely interested in helping each other. Organizing dues collection might make people feel obligated to do it, not because they want to.

The 'house meetings" are priceless, for myself I have seen some outstanding systems that have given me ideas for the future. That would be missing if we "organized" more.

I feel that dues in this club are not necessary, and like Rovert said, we share a uniqueness because we are a loosely knit group that enjoys the same hobby. Other clubs have it too, but this one is ours.

No more soap box for me, it seems to start all sorts of discussions.

Dave

[BORECKI]

At the moment, I am going aganst regular dues as I don't see real benifit to us as we are. I just threw out the Dr. Ron idea as a glib reply to a question.
In reality i have a hard time seeing Dr. Ron flying over to talk to 20 people in somebodies house. (It would be a nice pipe dream:) ). But if we were ever to pull that off it would probably be in conjuction with PARC. Again at the camden aquarium; to have the venue (hopfuly at no charge:rolleyes: ) and the people of two clubs (maybe even Baltimore) to fill up a room.
As for the fraging of a coral, I say that should be done on an "as want basis" at the time of a meeting.
I think we have a good thing going as it stands.
Boris.

[Malcolm_C]

I second that, I'm against a mandatory dues

more votes please.

[katspaw]

Boy, All of you have been busy while I was gone. It has taken me some time to read everything. Next time I go out of town, I will take my computer with me. :)

As I stated with Forbzie orginal post, As the founder of this club, I will fight to prevent club dues. I don't think that the size of the club would allow us to collect dues, and it is a big turn off for new members. The way things have been working has been successiful for us to learn and grow. I like the idea of getting a coral and fragging it up, and I will add a little to it. At the next meeting, we choose a coral that we like to have. Everyone in the club is online as well, and we could pick a coral online and know the price as well. If you want in on a piece of it, you leave money with the person who suggested it. He/She is then responsible to buy the frag for the next meeting. The whole coral is then taken to the next meeting, to be fragged and given to each person involved in it's purchase. Doing it this way will give us a larger selection of corals, because then it can be ordered online, and It will have a little time to recoup from delivery before the fragging takes place. Also it will be a reason to show up at the next meting for us Northerns :D.
Now as far as Roverts idea of the fish lottery, It is a good idea, but I don't know if it would really work out. We would have to find an LFS that is willing to sell to us a bulk prices, An dlately with the meetings on Sundays online ordering would be difficult with fish. Not to mention who would be able to house them. So forth and so on.

Just my 2 cents.

Tracey

[gmh320]

Everyone seems to have already covered the points I would have made. I don't see any REAL reason why the collection of dues is necessary. Having house meetings is both free and gives us the opportunity to see each others tanks. All other suggestions for the use of dues are great, but they can be done by whoever wants to, without making it sort of "manditory" (Spykeys point exactly). The only suggestion I would make to somewhat "formalize" the meetings would for everyone to be more specific as to what frags they have available to bring to the meetings and also what they are looking for. This way we're not bringing frags that no one is in the market for.
-Greg

[Rovert]

Tracey, good point on the weekend delivery issue. That's something that we'd need to work around somehow. This is why it's important to talk about different ideas, so other folks can spot the 'holes' in an idea, and help to fix the leaks. :D

That said, the 'critter lottery' idea isn't restrained to fish. A 'critter' could be anything, from cleanup crews to corals. One of the most frequent posts that circulate here is the idea of pooling an order to save money. By having a shipment arrive at the host's house the day of a meeting, it removes the distance travel issue when trying to share an order outside the confines of a meeting, since we were planning to be there anyway.

Yes, you're right, we would need to find a few LFS's that are willing to offer a 'bulk discount' for some things, which introduces that risk of favoritism we talked about last time. This idea isn't perfect, but it's still workable. But we don't have to do an LFS, we can also buy online, and many merchants DO offer discounts for larger orders.

Also, as much as I like Malcolm's idea of fragging a coral, one problem just hit me. Most corals in an LFS will be wild caught, barely stabilized in the store tanks, and probably not ready for fragging. We ought to check with Brian, but if we do go this route, we should expect some loss from time to time, or we should agree on a colony one month, then give it until the next meeting to stabilize in the host's tank, for fragging and distribution at the next meeting, to give it time to settle in.

Gee... here's a brainstorm... maybe we ought to give BRIAN some business?

[katspaw]

I think giving Brian most of the business is great Idea. But would it be economical for him to do so. It isn't like he would be willing to part with one of his mother colonies. If he has large colonies that we can buy great. But all so, it would be benefical to Brian when we buy from an online dealer so that he can expand his coral selection. As I said before:

Doing it this way will give us a larger selection of corals, because then it can be ordered online, and It will have a little time to recoup from delivery before the fragging takes place.

Tracey

[kennerd]

Hey, all. As the "ghost" member of the club, having been involved, but only seen by a few of you, I think we're still a small enough group to avoid the dues issue. I especially like the missing " attendance requirement"! I'm especially grateful that the group hasn't taken things too seriously, which can be the real downfall of a fun time.

It seems that enough of us have really grasped the essence of our "organization": a happy comraderie with loose rules. Thankfully, the internet has allowed us to share in our hobby, even when we all can't get together. Without it, clubs like this disband quickly, as I've seen in the past.

In terms of the ideas that have been thrown aruond:

I think if someone comes across the mother colony of the really cool coral we've all been looking for, we'd all share and hop on the opportunity anyway, given our relationship, and track record of genorosity.

I also believe that, should someone decide to add to or suggest something for a meeting that would require some cash, we'd all respond quickly enough with a yay or nay. I wish I could get my clients to respond as quickly as members of this group hop to respond on the boards or Topica.

In terms of dues, there is really nothing that I could see that would require them on a regular basis. We've all got very different reef environments, needs and budgets, and I can't see a "general" need that all of us need (besides some spare cash!) that would benefit us universally. Putting in cash for a regular supply of frags leads us to Barhoops' comment: we'll run out of room eventually (some of us are already there).

I think "dues" in the sense of a regular amount of cash for membership doesn't really apply here, given our spread membership, but specific events or items might be more appropriate. As far as a highly-paid speaker, I think I'd decline.

[Rovert]

Tracey, I must not be clear on what you're talking about, but since it seems we all hit on an idea we like, let's explore it to see how it would work.

Doing it this way will give us a larger selection of corals, because then it can be ordered online, and It will have a little time to recoup from delivery before the fragging takes place.

Ok, but if we order from an online merchant, won't that get us back to your earlier point about the weekend shipping issue? Also, we would need to find an online merchant that offers whole colonies. One limitation on this is that I think most of us would prefer to see the animal first, before we decide.

Brian already discounts his corals (buy 5, get 6) but it's up to him if he wants to offer any more than that. But isn't getting a frag from Brian's main colony kind of like getting a frag from any other colony? Something to think about, though.

As I think about it, there might be other ways to do it, but let's save the discussion for the next meeting? I don't want to introduce too many complexities. Too much to cover online, but I'll get it on the 'agenda' and remember to bring it up next time. ;)

[Aquariust]

Yes we could buy from Brian, but we don't all keep SPS. I know he has a few softies, but not as much as SPS, which seems to be the rave now. He'd need to up his availablitly list for us too:)

I agree with Malcom's idea, instant gratification!

I think this whole topic was covered quite clearly in the other post.

I'd like to have $900 to spend on cool things for the club and it's members, but don't want the baggage it comes with. Maybe someone can donate it to us:rolleyes:

I'll just stick with my raffles when the club goes to a store.

I hope I didn't start this post, I was merely trying to show Jon from PARC different ideas and the way members feel.

NJRC = FREE

My .02 cents,

-John

[Rovert]

I'd like to have $900 to spend on cool things for the club and it's members, but don't want the baggage it comes with. Maybe someone can donate it to us Well, John, that about sums it up in a nutshell. I don't think a more eloquent conclusion could have been put on this subject.

Nuff said, I've spent more than my two cents. I'm done, and bowing out.

[EdBurhop]

Here are my thoughts


NO DUES ......

No Need for it, and will only hurt the club.

Pay as you go is the way to go.

Ed

[jimroth]

I feel we will have to collect dues at some point when and if the club is larger and older. Let's enjoy our "youth," without dues, as long as it's working.

I've spent some time in a club with dues (NJAS), and I don't feel you get very much for your dues. Rental of the VFW hall, a pretty sad newsletter, the occassional guest speaker, donuts and coffee. They have to have dues, the club is too big to meet informally. Running the meeting and putting out the newsletter seems to be a constant hassle for them.

[katspaw]

Okay guys I have a question for you. Joe from Reefsplendor sent me this email. Do you like it and want to join???

Hey Tracey.
It's been a long time since we've heard from you.
How is everything going?
Hope all is well with you and your family.

Was just wondering if you and your group would be interested in receiving monthly discounts on various products which could be decided upon by a wish list that they create. We are doing this with a couple of other clubs out there and it seems to be working out well for everything. Here is what we are proposing:

For starters we will donate a $25 gift certificate to your club each month which can be given out at your meetings.
Next, each month we will email your club with approximately four product lines discounted (ex. uri bulbs, halide lamps, protein skimmers, additives, test kits, etc). This discount will be exclusively for your reef club and no one else.
The members in your club would be free to email me with any questions or feedback as they please. We can also pick a focal point (you) for the group and they/you could assist us each month in deciding on which products you would like to see discounted for that particular month.

We think it's a great idea and it would benefit us all in the long run.

A suggestion for you which would make the emails easier would be to sign up on groups@yahoo.com and receive one email address for your club. Each person registers their email addy to this "group" and when an email is sent to this group, each member receives a copy of it.

Let us know if this is something you would be interested in or if you happen to have any additional ideas for this...

Hope to hear from you soon.

Best regards,
Joe >>>

Joe Zamalkany, Jr.
Vice President
Reef Splendor Inc.
845-227-6750
Email joe@reefsplendor.com
Website http://reefsplendor.com/
I will send this out on Topica.com as well

Tracey

[DaveP]

Tracy,
I think the reef splendor idea is great. However, I don't think our group even keeps a list of members, do we? There would have to be some way of formalizing membership b/c Joe states "This discount will be exclusively for your reef club and no one else. "

As for dues I don't think they are a great idea. We have so many experiences of our own and very knowledgeable reefers already contributing. I don't think speakers would be that beneficial, I personally enjoy the current atmosphere. If a speaker is holding a conference maybe we could inquire about a group discount instead of actually setting up our own.

Mad Drama
How are those frags by the way? Sorry I missed the meeting, would like to see pictures.
DaveP

[katspaw]

Dave,
I have somewhat of a list. Granted now that we have topica.com as our email service, I don't have an up to date one anymore. With Joe's idea, we would all have to sign up at their email service to receive the discounts also.

Tracey

[Malcolm_C]

Dave

all the frag are good except for 1 that died. the yellow acapora you gave me turned yellow and green (kinda funky) and i have atleast a quarter inch of grownth on the rocks i attached the frags too. I had serveal frags for you that also attched them selves to rocks, that I frag after tracecys. I'll have them for you at the next meeting.

thanks again.

[Nagel]

I'm gonna drag this one back to the top, I'm going through posts I've missed as I have been a tad busy lately.

For now, lets stay as we are, thats my opinion. I had the pleasure of discussing the politics of a large reef club (the Boston Reef Society) that grew to over 100 regular members in just 3 meetings, with Vilas, one of their founders (and a good frirend of mine).

Let me say this, we enjoy, no, we don't even realize how much we enjoy seeing each others tanks. They are too large to meet at a members house, and they constantly complain that they miss that kind of atmosphere (they had it for one or two meetings, then were instantly too large to continue like that).

There's also alot of formality involved, and for now, I think we have a good thing going. If some people want to chip in for the hosting I think we should know who to give it to, but dues yet are not the best of ideas, IMO.

On the other hand, I think if we paid for Dr. Ron, I could get him out here for a visit. Being a fellow mod I'm sure he wouldnt mind coming out here if we paid for airfare, I will have 2 guest bedrooms in the new house, so that's not an issue, and I've become pretty good friends with the Doc through RC. We would have to cover costs and I'm sure a token amount for the ability to pick his brains, but I doubt it would be that hard to setup if we really put our minds to it. Something for the future though, maybe winter or spring next year.

One final note: ENJOY what we have now, once we get larger and can no longer meet at reefers houses, we'll realize just what we had now, and how much we miss it.

just my .o2