Seneca Park Zoo

[Stoli]

Today, I took my daughter to the Seneca Park Zoo. Generally speaking, the zoo was nicely maintained with reasonable habitats. I was however shocked and dismayed at the salt water tank in the underground viewing area for the sea lions and polar bears. The tank looked to be about 250-300 gallons, acrylic. It appeared to be very poorly maintained. The livestock included two hippo tangs with moderate to severe cases of lateral line erosion and hole in the head. The tank was covered with green slime algae and did not appear to have solid filtration. Were I a manager of the zoo, I would be quite embarassed by the display.

Anyway, it got me to thinking about what it would take to fix the display up. It would take some experienced fish keepers probably a couple of hours to clean the tank, set up good filtration and choose appropriate livestock. It would also, of course, require money.

So, here's the deal. I'm willing to pledge the first $150.00 towards fixing up the tank. I'm also willing to pitch in at least one hour per month in regular tank maintenance. If several of us get in on the effort, we should be able to make a sufficient contribution to the effort to make this tank truly a showplace. If anyone else is interested, please send me an e-mail. If any of you get a chance, go take a look at the tank and make recommendations. Maybe we can get the zoo to let us in and take a look at the system. We would then set up a budget and do the leg work.

What I'd like to see, jmho, is a beautiful reef set up such as many of the more experienced keepers on this board have. The club could get some recognition and we might even be able to convince the zoo to pitch in some money. Seems like a good way to boost our hobby and provide a public service. Plus, we get to play with a really big tank.

[_ShotgunShrimp_]

id start the whole thing off by finding out if the zoo would 1 want help and 2 allow it to be done by "fish geeks" b4 you got a big head of steam and found out they flat out say no

[ToddsReef]

I would definitely be interested in the initial steps (before I leave) and I think it's a great way to promote the hobby and the zoo in general. It would cost a lot of money for a tank that size but it would probably be easy to get some corporate sponsors...damn, too bad George isn't around anymore. Sounds very cool, I have often thought of getting one going in the hospital but feared what would happen to it when I left...the zoo is a much better idea and a fairly realistic one as well (at least IMO). Keep us posted as to what happens with the "permission" end of things.
Todd

[Playfair]

A couple of us have been tossing this idea around for a couple years now. There are a couple probs with this:

A) The plastic tank front is pretty severely scratched up. Already starting negative on this one. It seems some company donated the tank itself, they had a plaque on the side. (IMO, it's more like 500+ gals, but I never measured)

B) Stoli, that's a mighty generous contribution, but to set that thing up "right" would cost AT LEAST $5000 more. Zoos inherently have cash probs, and they spend what they get on the big crowd pleasers (like polar bears lol). UPKEEP would run another couple hundred a month, which brings us to...

C) To have " a beautiful reef set up such as many of the more experienced keepers on this board have" would require a minumum of several hours EVERY COUPLE DAYS in addition to what the "zoo keepers" could do. That's a lot of work!

I guess if the zoo ok'd it, we could talk more, but I'm not sure if even our close knit group could agree on how to set it up...

[_ShotgunShrimp_]

there is a FO in the hospital already... its on the ground floor... im not positive of the area its in though.... i cant remember i could walk to it but couldnt explain how to get there

[MarksReef]

I'll check It out. If any one is going call me 247-2858 Mark












i

[ToddsReef]

Tim,
I think the one you are referring to is in the Orthopedics department. There is also a big one in the pediatrics outpatient department on AC-6. No reefs though. Closest thing in town is the FO with LR on the 4th floor of RGH (as far as I know) and they use aptasia as decoration...HUGE aptasia.
Todd

[Gary Majchrzak]

Todd... HUGE AIPTASIA!? My copperband was looking for a spot to spend summer vacation at!
Stoli: NOBLE INTENT! How are the new giraffes?
There is much at our zoo...and much to improve upon!

[Charles Oesterly]

Stoli,
I think it is a good observation and a great idea. I know one of the directors of the Zoo. His name is John Nucittelli and is a good friend of mine. He is also a reef keeper. Let me know if you want me to contact him.
I would be more than willing to put time and money into the tank.
Regards,
Charles

[Semi newbie]

I also saw this display the other day and was shocked. Last year it had plastic coral decorations with a few damsels in it but at least it was clean, now it is a mess. I would love to help if I could! Keep us posted.

The Aiptasia at RGH are HUGE!!!!!!! They are weird though since they don't seem to be taking over the tank, they all appear to be on the top rocks. I wish the person responsible for that tank would put a little more into maintaining it as it could be very nice....

[BCooksey]

I also was at the zoo yesturday and i saw the tank. I may be kind of new to this hobby, but would be embarassed to have that tank as such, be seen in such a popular spot in the zoo. The ironic thing is that i was also thinking the same thaught and sent an e-mail to the zoo with my concerns and asking what I can do to help. You were saying that the front acrilicis scratched, my sisters boyfriend has a business that deals in glass, and acrilics, plastics and I am almost positive that he would be willing to help out in some way. I think this a great idea to show our hobby in a more seen area. Even if it was set up as a fish only tank I think if we all chipped in a little time and effort it would be a beautiful contribution to the childeren that frequant the zoo. I'll let you know what the e-mail says when the zoo writes back.
Tracy

[Stoli]

I left a message today with Lisa Tuminelli, the education and volunteer coordinator at the Zoo. Apparently, as was obvious yesterday, this is a very busy week for the Zoo and I don't expect an immediate response.

I also gave some thought to Dave's comments regarding cost and tank condition. First, I may have been too optimistic regarding the possible results of our efforts. Members of this group have some tanks that are truly spectacular and achieving that level of success could be very difficult. However, setting up a tank that could keep hardier corals (maybe even some SPS) shouldn't be that expensive. Moreover, I'd certainly be willing, as I imagine many of us would, to donate some livestock, a great deal of time, and some funds to take a shot at setting up a real showplace. Decisions could be made by a simple vote on various options and we could set up a schedule for maintenance.

Anyway, maybe I'm just a fish loving Don Quixote but I'm pretty excited about the idea. I'll keep everyone posted.

Charles, please feel free to speak with your director friend. Any help would be appreciated.

[_ShotgunShrimp_]

but as i see it if the go ahead is given im more than willing to help as im sure alot of people are.. and offcourse frags would be an awesome idea although.. a frag would take a while to become something awesome.. more in the way of colonys would be needed for something of such size.. but im sure anything is possible when we put our minds together.. (i say we just let kieth have it for a month and it would be stuffed to the gills with sps :)

anyhow its great that you press on... time will tell on this deal

[fujimo32360]

We could make or own rock and seed it with some live rock. making rock would be alot cheeper. I believe all of us also have a mushroom or to we could part with. this would help keep some costs down.

[Zmann]

The whole make your own rock is a great idea if it would work but it wont. It just wont look right takes a long time for the portland to come down on the PH side of things. Dude its a waste of time. Been there done that it sucks. The best way to do it is the way Gary set up his tank. Lots of live rock surrounding already almost cured blocks.

[_ShotgunShrimp_]

you could grab cinder blocks out of lakes,stream,rivers and use those offcourse they would need to be dried to kill off all the freshwater nasty's but these would be basicly the same as gary's in cureing...

[Stoli]

Just a quick update. I received a call back from Lisa Tuminelli and she directed me to Shantey (not sure of spelling) who is in the public relations department. I left a message for her and will try her again tomorrow.

With regard to the live rock, there are many options. However, I suspect that we would have to bulk order some cured rock with a mix of base and decorator. I suspect we could get a good price based upon the size of the tank. Also, we might be able to pool an order for some of our member thereby increasing the amount ordered. I also think I could convince my firm to sponsor at least a portion of the cost and that might help a bit.

I'll let everyone know how my contact goes tomorrow.

[Zmann]

If purchased for a zoo it would be all Tax free wouldn't it? Should be able to get a few other businesses to kick in some donations. Playfair and I had these same conversations about a year ago and decided to drop the ball on it because of the time you would need to donate. You poor your heart and soul into something like this only to be most likely let down by personnel at the zoo who might not no as much about reefs and end up letting the tank go downhill. You know that fellow club members wont put in the time it will take to go there every day to take care of it. So that means who ever is taking care of that tank now will probably be the one.
God I'm so negative sometimes. Think I need a vacation. Are you listening Playfair. Holy crap its 3am. What the heck am I doing? It was to hot in the bedroom couldn't sleep.

[Stoli]

Zmann:

I understand your concern about regular tank upkeep but I really think it's a matter of training. A zoo's job is to properly maintain habitats for its specimens. In this case, I don't think they consider the inhabitants of the tank zoo specimens. In light of the lack of information regarding the fish in the tank (no information provided at the tank or anywhere I could see), I suspect they consider the tank to be more of a decoration than a habitat.

While this doesn't speak very well of the zoo, I believe (being the hopeless optimist) that once the tank is properly set up and it is made clear that this is an important habitat, the zoo would be more than willing to help us with maintenance. Moreover, if the zoo knows that one of us is going to be visiting the tank on a regular basis (even once a week) and reporting back to the group the condition of the tank, they would be kept on their toes to make sure the tank is well cared for.

In any event, I'll keep reporting my progress and then we can make a decision if we want to take a shot at this.

[Stoli]

Oh, and BTW.

This is an interesting conversation between me and Zmann taking place at truly ungodly hours. Neither of us should be held responsible for what we are saying.:)

[Zmann]

Well you know Stoli in one of your previous posts you talked about being up late I think because of what you ate. Well I ate another Garbage Plate last night and I must say I think this was the culprit for me being up at 3am. It is now noon and I'm still feeling it. Im not eating that crap anymore!! The toilets are thanking me for giving up the plates they said they were sick of being abused.

[Guy]

Stoli,

If you could have Shantey (sp?) call my company's Public Affairs Officer (Kristen Alvanson @ 212-525-8239) we may get some help. If the conversation included a small plaque set next to the display including a red hexagon, the letters HSBC, and the words Donated by, then it's possible the funding problem may go away, just not the labor problem.

I would make the call but it will be MUCH more effective coming from the Zoo.

Guy

[ReeferMac]

Wow Guy, that would be a great help. I think the financial aspect would be non-existant!
Now, can you talk to them about doing something with the Mortgage they're holding on me and this place ;-)

- Mac

[StashuDave]

I could also help any of that funding go a little further. I can get any equipment or supplies at cost ( from Champion) and pass it along. I'm sure they have a tax I.D. # so I wouldn't have to charge tax and that way we could get the most out of our moneyfor the project. I don't know how much labor I could contribute, but if you had a big teardown/startover day I could definately make that. Looking forward to hearing if this is a feasible project. Dave

[Stoli]

Well, I left a second message for Shantey today, but as I mentioned yesterday, this is a crazy week at the zoo.

I am really getting excited about this project and the pledges of support from everyone has been great. I hope to hear from someone tomorrow and I'll update you then.

[Stoli]

I just had a conversation with Chris Rudin at the Zoo. He is one of the zoologists. We discussed at some length the current exhibit and also some of our ideas. I must admit that the conversation was a bit strained as apparently, Mr. Rudin has ben entertaining the idea of setting up a sea horse exhibit in the tank. I did my best to dissuade him from pursuing such an exhibit but he seemed quite taken with the notion of such an exhibit. In any event, he is planning on setting up a meeting in the near future with representative from our group in order to discuss, in greater depth, our ideas. I anticipate a call back from the zoo within the next few days to schedule the meeting. I would like it if several of us could attend. I'll keep everyone updated.

[Stoli]

Just a quick additional note. I also received a call back from Shante at in the PR department at the zoo and she seemed to be completely behind our idea.

[dmorel]

I am very impressed with how far and how quickly this idea has gone.

I myself don't have nearly enough time in a day as it is now, so I could not volunteer to assist in any interesting way.(I could make it for a day of mass work, but nothing regularly.)

I really hope you guys are able to get access to the tank and make it beautiful. I would think a discussion with our prominent LFS's would also be in order.

I urge everyone to consider the long term impact of a project like this. It would be a shame to put the wheels in motion only to find out 6 months from now that maintaining the tank is becoming a drag and only one guy is still doing it, and only because he feels like he "has to do it"

I don't mean to be a pessimist (I am one though) and I would think with the number of people showing an interest the upkeep would not be that gruelling...
It would obviously be best if there was a paid member of the zoo keeping staff that was trained in the day to day, but I assume that this is a staff whose budget has to go awfully far...

Don't let any of my negative comments overshadow the fact that this IS a good idea, and that I am proud to know a bunch of folks interested in doing something good for the fishes and something good for the kids (and grown ups like myself!) that will see that tank.

-dm

[ReeferMac]

Point well taken by Dave M's remarks. Steve Schaffer and I were batting the idea around as well one night on ICQ, and come to find out he knows someone at the Zoo... Another possible resource as well. Generally the same fears I think are felt by all (the Zoo staff too no doubt).
I'd recommend posting the question to some of the general discussion forum's of the chat boards around, to see if anyone else has broached the topic before. Chances are someone else tried talking to their local zoo, and might have been shot down. Gives us fodder for the meeting!


At any rate, Stoli, you can count me into the meeting if you want/need another body and a head. Since you seem to be the one with all the energy on this, I vote you carry the torch, and decide how and who you'd like to go with you. I can make arrangements to make almost any time that you want to schedule things, but would prefer if it were in the afternoon.

Whoever ends up going to this meeting, I would recommend getting together before hand with everyone from the club, so as to discuss the points you would all like to make, what our position would be on certain matters, and who's going to lead, etc... Hey, maybe make it an excuse to have a mini-meet somewhere. I'd have to do some serious scraping, but could prolly host something at my house in the next week or two.

- Mac

[ReeferMac]

Oh, and BTW Stoli... Thanks! You did a great job starting this thing up and getting the ball rolling. I hope it all works out for us, and the club get's to do this thing!

- Mac

[Stoli]

Dave:

Point very well taken. Despite the slight reticence of Chris Rudin, he did note that the zoo would certainly help with maintenance. He also commented on how shorthanded they are at the moment but mentioned that they do clean the tank daily. In my very limited experience, it would seem that the much of the maintenance, aside from running a magnet over the tank daily, could be done in a matter of a couple of hours per week. Of course, this depends in large part on the setup of the tank. In this setting, I think a calcium reactor and automatic topoff system are a must (although I'm sure many 'Kalkers' would disagree). I also think that livestock choices would have a substantial impact on maintenance. But, in the end, your absolutely correct that this type of project will require some commitment on a regular basis to work well.

Mac:

I would be disappointed if you didn't want to attend the meeting. You seem to be one of the more experiences reefers and your input would be invaluable.

Keep your eyes here for updates as they occur. Thanks to all.

[ToddsReef]

I could make a meeting any time in the until 5/31...other than 5/21 (the boards) and the weekend of 5/24 (graduation) . While others would certainly be better representatives (as I am leaving) I would be happy to make it if you need another person. This is very exciting...what a club!
Todd

[_ShotgunShrimp_]

Being that i am unemployed... and have tons of time on my hands id be ready willing and able to do whatever whenever.. i also have a source of live rock and live sand we could tap if needed....

(the best stuff there is in my opinion)

[Mac]

Greetings all.

I am very intrigued by this post. I must preface my statments by saying that I cringe everytime i see that tank. In fact my 5 1/2 year ols has said to me that that tank is not only boring but ugly and "our" tank is better.

that set up is a disgrace and a shame. It shouldnt be there is it is so carelessly maintained and an after thought of the zoo.

I support the enthusiasm by the select members of the club, but I would like to suggest that we all remain grounded in this endevour. As indicated by a few, this project will not only required a heavy initial investment but a serious maintenance charge throughout the months. This cost NEEDS to be identified early and budgeted. I am certain that we as a group can find sponsors, but many sponsors, such as HSBC, will desire a plaque indicating their support.

I am sure that we can get John, prolly our best chance, from MArine Oasis, to support our endevours and his assistance can be helpful.
We all know that our frags should be donated by us and this should and would be made known.

I support this project where possible, but only after a real plan is laid out, financially and time wise.

As Playfair said, that tank face is trashed. we are already behind the 8 ball on that one.

lets make sure we dont bite off more than we can chew. this is an effort that would have to be carried out for a long time, it is a real commitment. if we want it to work.

good luck and keep the group posted.

M
A
C

ps. sorry for the rambling. can you say "wake and bake"?

[ReeferMac]

We all know that our frags should be donated by us and this should and would be made known.

Actually, that just made me realize something...

TAX WRITE-OFF!!!!
Not to mention any time you donate, etc. Might be hard to put a dollar value on an hour or two of your time (although I'm sure that would produce some interesting debates!), but nonetheless, I think it's a point worth mentioning! This would be Community Volunteer work, and the Zoo is Tax Deductible. Should work just the same as if you stuffed 20 dollars in the donation box. Of course check with your certified Tax Preparation Professional, don't just take my word for it.

And Yes Mac, those morning's will do that to you ;-) I try and get really juiced on Coffee too... the two together at 8 AM produces an interesting effect!

- Mac

[Stoli]

Sorry, but you can't write off your time. Only contributions of money or other personal property can be deducted. However, the price put on a donation of livestock can certainly vary;)

Once again, I share the concerns raised here about the time, effort and expense needed to make this project work. However, nothing worth doing is easy. I see this as a real opportunity to give something to the community in which I live while doing something I really enjoy.

One final note. I will never push anyone to be involved in this. Of course, nobody will be required to participate and if the interest is not sufficient to handle the job, I will be the first to lay down the flag. On the other hand, does anyone here not believe this is at least worth serious investigation??

[_ShotgunShrimp_]

stoli i noticed that you had spoke to one of the zoo people and they said they wanted to build a seahorse tank out of the system... the man must have not done much research because our reefs are FARRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR easier than seahorse tanks... im in the process of learning about horses's and the ins and outs and i must say its FAR FAR more difficult than a reef.. first off they would have to dump about 12 pounds of food in that tank a day just for the seahorses to catch enough to eat... secondly the slow moveing system is very hard to maintain without huge algae blooms and cyano growth... also they would have to deal with sumone like oceanrider to get any type of mortality rate and survival.... and those are no where by any means CHEAP.. soo id discourage him from it quickly...

[Stoli]

I also researched a seahorse tank and came to the same conclusion as you. Chris Rudin seems to be enamored of the idea despite these concerns. Should be an interesting conversation.

[_ShotgunShrimp_]

considering a pair of mustangs from oceanrider are about 100 bucks (there cheapest and ugliest imho) and for a 500 gallon tank it would take about 80 pairs... hmmmmmmmmmmm wowwy i wish i had that scratch :)

[cperson]

Stoli-the-organizer,
I think between corporate sponsors and LFS sponsor(s) and maybe some at-cost pricing on livestock and supplies the project could get funded. I would think the zoo may be able to do the corporate funding end of the deal, they do it already. A local marine aquarium retailer would be a good place to start for livestock and supplies. I imaging they would like there name associated with a nice display tank. I would also push for the zoo personnel to do all the regular maintenance. Maybe some of our club members could get involved with the initial labor and setup. IMO, it's just too much time and responsibility for our club to do daily maintenance.

A seahorse tank does not require lot's of light (in fact you want dim light), so algae should not be a big problem. The water parameters are not as tricky as a reef, and it costs less to set up and run a low current tank that a high current reef. Heavy mechanical filtration and water changes should be enough to keep the water parameters OK. And people love sea horses.

A reef set up would be several times more expensive than a fish only or sea horse tank. The regular maintenance would be greater and more expensive. And the corals are very expensive, even at cost. If it's a 300 or 500 gallon tank, small coral specimens would be lost and would take several months or years to grow to look good in proportion to the tank size. Until then nobody except some reefoholics like us would even notice what's in the tank.

Summary: Let them do a sea horse tank or encourage a fish only tank. A reef is way too much work and cost for a zoo (like ours).

Nice idea though.

[_ShotgunShrimp_]

Originally posted by cperson
Stoli-the-organizer,

A seahorse tank does not require lot's of light (in fact you want dim light), so algae should not be a big problem. The water parameters are not as tricky as a reef, and it costs less to set up and run a low current tank that a high current reef. Heavy mechanical filtration and water changes should be enough to keep the water parameters OK. And people love sea horses.


Nice idea though.

um i beg to differ first of algae needs no light at all to grow.. remembering that some algae is actually an animal (well bacteria) and the cost for anyone to get CB seahorses no matter who is a killer.. the algae is a problem no matter where you go and to put seahorses in a 500 gallon tank would be just nutz... they wouldnt find there food (ie starve to death) the food would rott (ie high nitrates)

but i do agree.. there would be alot of work that would have to be controled by the keepers of the zoo (considering there paid to do so) a reef with SPS would probably be out of the question for them but a simple sps softy and fish system wouldnt be to tough to produce...

[Gary Majchrzak]

Hippocampus species are cryptic.All public seahorse displays {that I am aware of} are in much smaller tanks.Of course, acrylic is a poor choice for a reef system, as coralline algae have a natural affinity for plastics.I agree something should be done with the aquarium in question.I'm sure some of us think it would make a nice sump.

[kcolagio]

OK, trying to get a handle on what the zoo may want, here's what I think they would want:

1) Easy to maintain. Goes without saying, but saying it anyway. :)

2) Attention getter. They want something that will make people want to go see it.

3) Changable. If it stays the same for years on end, no one will go see it after the first few times.....refer to #2.

Given these, a Sea Horse tank is out of the question. The requirements of Sea Horse to have live food, fed throughout the day (no stomach), etc. pretty much rule out these as an option.

SPS Reef: No good. Maintenance would be high (testing and maintaining Ca and Alk, coralline control, etc...) and the maintenance cost would also get prohibitive (4x 400watt MH bulbs and 4x VHO actinics == 2000 watts...outch!).

Softies: This may work. 4x 250 MH and 2x VHO actinics (1200 watts) is still high, but not as bad. Also, you don't need to maintain the higher level of Ca and Alk.... You could stock it with mushrooms, zoanthids, star polyps, etc. Toss in a slew of snails and some hand made rock (from aragocrete) and you are close to done. Just add some fish and you are close to all set.

Fish only: This, I think, may be an option if done right. I think what would have the most interest (to visitors) would be an aggressive species tank. A lionfish or two (same species) and/or a moray...etc. The zoo already has dead feeder fish, it shouldn't be hard to track down some fish that are trained to eat dead stuff already....

The fish and softies could be combined....you just have to be careful about the combinations.

Just some thoughts.

[_ShotgunShrimp_]

im my last post i ment LPS softy's and zoanthids :)

[cperson]

"Reeeealy!"
-Ace Ventura, Pet Detective

[dmorel]

I would definitely think that a fish only would be the right move for a variety of reasons.

Chief among them are that you can get some super cool fishes.
They are easier to maintain.
They are less expensive.

This is the URS not the UFOS so I understand why the tendency is to think only about mini reefs instead of the FO.
If I am not mistaken the tank currently at the zoo while in a sad state is a fish only.
This means that you don't have to ask the zoo to change what it is they are doing, only change how they are doing it.
Sure it's subtle, but it might be helpful.
If I was a decision maker I would be scared to get behind maintaining a reef at that zoo. On the other hand it would be hard for me to turn down an offer from seasoned aquarists to clean up and "upgrade" my current set up.

I have found that the stress of maintaining my reef tank sometimes outweighs the pleasure I get from looking at it. Meanwhile hanging out with the FO tank is an amazing experience and save for a few tweaks here and there it has run along very well. Plus, I have a puffer and that beautiful tusk which are some super fun to look at fish.

-dm

[Stoli]

This thread is taking what I consider to be an extremely valuable turn in examining what we would like to see done at the zoo, if anything.

Just as a summary:

Possible Choices:
1. Seahorse Exhibit
2. Fish only
3. Reef limited to softies
4. Reef with mix of softies and lps
5. Reef with mix of softes, lps, and sps.

Now, here's one option that has only been mentioned tangentially. What about a biotope. Specifically, we could choose a specific type of reef habitat and try to limit livestock to species that would inhabit that biotope. Could be any combination of type of reef (fore reef, crest, lagoon, etc.) and/or geography (indopacific, hawaii, caribean, etc.).

It also seems that several people have raised concerns about costs and upkeep.

First, the costs associated with a FO should be significantly lower than for a Reef largely due to the lighting and calcium supplementation. Of course, livestock would also be less expensive. However, I believe we could raise more than enough money to pay these costs from local businesses (my firm included) as is done with many of the zoo displays.

Second, while I believe that keeping a reef is somewhat more labor intensive, in my limited opinion, I don't think the difference in regular maintenance is that substantial. This is, of course, dependant upon livestock and equipment choices. But, when you think about it, whether you keep a FO or Reef, you still need to do regular water changes, tank cleaning, feeding, pump maintenance, skimmer maintenance, etc. My suspicion in speaking with Chris Rudin is that the zoo staff is capable of handling much if not most of the day to day items.

If it were my choice, and it is not but rather the choice of the entire group, I would strongly favor a reef. I think the educational value, both from a scientific and conservationist point of view, is substantially greater in a reef. I also think that, depending upon the livestock choices, the reef tank is far more dramatic and would go much further to advancing our beloved hobby. Finally, the tank could serve as an experimental station for the local reef community.

In any event, and I know this is difficult on a board such as this, I would like to reach some kind of general consensus before I go further with my efforts with the zoo. I hope all of you will try to give your opinions here and I will do my best to tally them fairly and honestly. Just don't forget that I'm a lawyer so you can't really trust me too much.:D

[RandyO]

I agree with Stoli 100%. Even if he is a lawyer.

[cperson]

Stoli,
One last thing about funding. Institutions like zoo's usually have a foundation, who's purpose is to to provide funding for current and future projects. If you or your firm is willing to contribute to a project (approved or not approved) that's great. I'm sure they will take any and all $$$ you have available. I suggest you let the zoo be concerned with funding outside of your immediate control. You may inadvertently step on some toe's. As I mentioned earlier in this thread, discuss this at the first meeting so everyone's clear on what funds are available. $$$ makes the world go 'round.

[Zmann]

If your going to do anything do a reef. Maintenance on a reef in my opinion is no harder then a fish only except for some pruning every now and then.

1.. For 1 week on my tank I add B-ionic every day and water (this can be done automatically).

2.. Clean the glass 3 times a week. Feed 3 times a week(this can be done automatically).

When everything is glued or epoxied there's no worry about corals falling. I don't see why some think that a reef is more work then what its worth. For what I do with my tank any zoo keeper could do.
The initial hard work is only going to be the beginning basically the setup. It should only have to be checked on by Qualified Reefer like once a week for less then an hour. I know what I said in previous posts but I have put some thought into this and I think Stoli has a great idea.
I also don't want the URS name on a fish only or Seahorse of death tank or for that matter a crappy reef.

[ReeferMac]

I also don't want the URS name on a fish only or Seahorse of death tank or for that matter a crappy reef.


I'll second that!

- Mac

[Mac]

3rd that.

[_ShotgunShrimp_]

well it seems a simple reef tank might be the thing.. and just from what i saw tonight... (i had the kirby guys clean the carpet free WOHOO:)) ) anyways one guy came in a drooled then another guy came and drooled then i had three guys all standing arround drooling on what to me isnt anything special by far there are much better tanks out there... and the amazment on there face with something as minimal as my reef... would just make me a happy person to see others in a zoo.. going WOW thats just amazing.. where the other types of tanks you get a "hey cool fish... wheres the polar bears"... just my 2 cents :) (offcourse all the cleaner shrimp and the sally lightfoot crawling out from behind the rocks helped :)

[Gary Majchrzak]

I'd be proud to have the URS name attached to a beautiful FO system,as well as a reeftank.I just returned from the New England Aquarium,and 'fish only' displays can be VERY impressive.Corals require more stringent conditions than fish.{There are exceptions!}Quite honestly,most kids really will not look at a clam or coral for more than a few seconds,with the exception of xenia when pulsing.I think fish or anything else that MOVES grabs the observer's attention: crabs,shrimp,seastars, etc.... I personally would prefer a full blown reef setup at the zoo.Fish and corals do better when kept together,IMO.This may not be practical with the current acrylic aquarium there.Coralline growth would make reef maintainance a miserable chore.Replace it with glass and a reef would be more feasable,IMO.I would also like to remind folks not to 'bite off more than they can chew'.And thanks to those that may even consider donating ANY time or resources to the project!And as a final thought- no matter how nice an aquarium is in that spot- it will not garner more attention than Ursus maritimus...the 'polar bear'.

[dmorel]

Originally posted by Gary Majchrzak
I'd be proud to have the URS name attached to a beautiful FO system,as well as a reeftank.I just returned from the New England Aquarium,and 'fish only' displays can be VERY impressive.Corals require more stringent conditions than fish.{There are exceptions!}

I completely agree with Gary here.

As I said in an earlier post I have nothing against a reef, and I understand that this is the Upstate Reef Society, but that being said in considering what there is to work with (current tank, money, time commitment, existing equipment, long term care...)
I would definitely vote for a fish only. I do NOT think there should be a sea horse tank

OR!!! Perhaps it is time to introduce the world to the FMWLR. ;)
Hmmm

[Stoli]

One of these days, I'm going to be able to remember all of the abbreviations. FMWLR (FOWLR I thought is fish only with live rock). What does the 'M' stand for? Sorry about the dumb questions, I just can't seem to remember.

[dmorel]

FMWLR
is not (yet) a hobby wide accepted abbreviation...
I'm working on it.


Fish MOSTLY with live rock...

-dm

[Stoli]

Here's the tabulation so far for those who have weighed in. I've put question marks next to those who either haven't made their preferences clear or who have not given an indication either way. I've done my best to accurately represent what each of you has said so far, but if I'm wrong let me know. Those with question marks, it would be helpful if you could clarify your position a bit. Also, feel free to condition your vote on various things (ie. reef, but only if sufficient funding is available. FO but only if live rock will be used., etc.) The more we can work out here, the better our discussion with the zoo will be. Also, feel free to tell me I'm nuts and that this whole thing is a pie-in-the-sky dream. This is just an idea and all opinions are encouraged and welcome. Also, let me know if I've left anyone out. Thanks.

Stoli: SPS LPS Reef (well, how did you think I was going to vote:D )
Shotgun: Reef
Playfair: ?
Oesterly: ?
Todd: Reef
Semi Newbie: Reef
Cooksey: ?
fugimo: FMWLR
Zmann: Reef
Guy: ?
Reefer Mac: Reef
Stashu Dave: ?
dmorel: FMWLR (FO?)
Mac: Reef
cperson: FO
Gary Mazchrazak: Still on the fence but leaning towards Reef?
Kcolagio: FO?
Randy O: Reef
Zack136: Reef but could live with FOWLR

[Semi newbie]

I myself would love to see some type of reef. I think the general population would be thrilled with softies and possible some LPS. The movement of these types catch the eye of many who see my tank. My kids love the soft corals and the fish and seem to completely ignore anything else in the tank. I agree with everyone when they say maintenance is the issue. I do believe that the zoo is capable if maintaining any type of habitat as long as they know the requirements, which I think all of us are more than willing to help them understand. It was also brought up in one of the earlier threads that the person at the zoo Stoli is talking with is a reef keeper himself which puts us a little farther ahead in the teaching of tank maintenance. So I guess I vote for LPS and softies with some awesome fish.

[_ShotgunShrimp_]

maybee a msg through the yahoo email just to get some of those that dont come to RC all the time...

[MarksReef]

Ok its time for my vote
I would like to see a reef tank because that's what we are all about. But I do not have any objection with a fowlr. I am willing to help in any way I can any time I can
Mark

[Gary Majchrzak]

dmorel : Doesn't the FOWLR,or more aptly termed by you "FMWLR" system bring in coralline algae? The FMWLR systems I have initiated always evolved into a low-light deepwater reef, simply because the requirements to keep the critters in the liverock 'alive' are very similar as the requirements for many corals- except for lighting intensity. IME many coralline algae FLOURISH in a low-lighting deep reef biotope type setup. This can cause maintainance woes with an acrylic tank, I would imagine. Are there any folks reading this thread keeping FOWLR's in acrylic tanks? This is a combination that I personally have never tried. We need some firsthand input, folks....
stoli, if we get the funding , I am all for the WHOLE shebang! I would be happy to donate captive propagated corals and some Banggai cardinalfish. My physical involvement in maintainance would be very limited, quite honestly. I have trained many friends and family members to run their own reef. If THEY can do it, zoo staffers should certainly be able to handle the requirements.

[Stoli]

I just updated the vote list to include Zack, Gary and SemiNewbie.

[Chucker]

Tim just pointed me towards this thread. (Thanks, man!) I regret that I don't spend much time in this forum, as helping to run reefs.org takes up a big chunk of my time. That being said, I'lll take a moment to put my thoughts up here.

I have played Devil's Advocate (check out the avatar ;))for many projects in the past, and think it might be worth doing the same here. Please be aware that my intent is not squelch the wonderful enthusiasm I have seen in this thread, but mainly for everyone to slow down, and take a step back. Some of my thoughts may be a bit off of the mark, as I have never actually been to the zoo. If that is the case, please correct me where I err.

Dave voiced my main concern, and that would be the novelty of the project wearing off. It is way too easy to look outside on a glorious spring/summer/fall/winter day, and think that the tank can slide "just this once." If we want to do this, we have to be in it for the long haul. If members of our club are going to be responsible for any maintenance of the system, a schedule will be need to be established, and we'll have to stick to it.

We should try to get a handle on the zoo's budget as early as possible. We need to know how many man-hours they can provide, and how much they can afford to pay for electricity, RO/DI water, food, livestock, bulbs, additives..... etc. Once we've got an idea of what they can give us, we can figure out how much we need to give them.

I'd also think that we shouldn't necessarily decide on a tank type until we've spoken to the zoo. After all, it is ultimately their choice what gets done, not ours. IMHO, we basically should act as consultants. One of the most important things we can do is to get a look behind the scenes at what is currently running their tank. Once we get an idea of what they've got, and what we can supply, we can go from there. I understand the zoo's desire for a seahorse tank, as they are crowd pleasers of sorts. Here is where we can step in, educate the zoo on what they'd need for one, and make sure they understand the needs of the creatures.


Now that I'm done being a stick in the mud, here's for some happier stuff. :D

If our name is put on the tank, people are going to want to contact us. We should establish a webpage where people can go for more info, and have a designated PR person that they can talk to. We have to be prepared to answer questions from the general public, the press, and hobbyists who weren't aware of our existance, and would like to join.

If the tank begins to kick some serious ***, there is a good chance that other people will want to contribute. While the zoo would be the avenue for donations, we should try to continue to remain in an advisory position where we could help them spend their money wisely, and help them for a "want list" of items that could be contributed.

In a similar vein, we should try to think ahead as much as possible. Does the zoo have room to expand the tank? Can multiple tanks be run in the space provided? Is there room for a growout tank for frags? Algae? Refugium? Sump? Fry rearing?

Well, I guess that's enough food for thought for now. It's almost lunchtime, and I'm hungry ;)

[dmorel]

Gary,
Absolutely, that is a problem here isn't. One of the most compelling reasons for staying with a FO (or FM) is the use of current equipment, but you sir are correct we would then have a maintence issue (read: nightmare) on our hands.


When this thread started I thought the idea was to fix up the current display, as it has picked up steam it is turning into replacing the current display with a new one.

I have also indicated that I can't do anything more then banter about it on the list, so my opinion is nearly useless.

If you're going to try and utilize the system that's in place and clean it up and make it better, I still vote for FO, and I do believe that a FO display can be AMAZING.

If you're going to "go all the way" absolutely have a blast with a reef and turn it into an amazing showpiece. Hell, I'll even donate a ballast or something to the cause. Please do keep in mind all the stuff we have been talking about: time, cost, and maintience being the first things that come to my mind.
We talk about the fact that we think the zoo staff could "handle the day to day" but remember, we are having a conversation about this because they clearly were not keeping up with the day to day of their current system in a way that was satisfactory to us.
I'm all for a grand reef tank, but I'm also conscious of the red-tape and politics of a public park.
More and more this proposed tank is starting to sound like the club setting up their own ultimate reef tank at the zoo, and I'm simply not sure if that is a viable option.

Again, I play the role of pessimist (I prefer devil's advocate) and I don't mean to come across that way.
I really think this is a GREAT idea, and with the experience of some of the long time reefkeepers in this group perhaps it can become a reality.

-dm

[Stoli]

Chucker:

Great questions all. My goal so far in this thread is to determine to the best of my ability, the general direction the group wishes to take with regard to our dealings with the zoo. Prior to making any final decisions, we need to determine several things clearly including every item on your list. However, if we don't have a good idea of what we'd like to see, then the discussions with the zoo will be of little value.

With regard to our service being limited to an advisory capacity, I can only speak for myself but my interest runs far deeper than that limited role. I would like to participate on a regular basis with maintenance and other efforts. With a group as large and apparently commited to the hobby as ours, I believe others would be willing to donate some regular time. However, I could definitely be wrong as is usually the case.

Of greatest importance at this stage, in my opinion, we need to determine a direction. So, that said, if you had your choice, which way would you go. (You will, of course be held to your position and any attempts to change your mind or even reasonably consider the issue, will result in the immediate confiscation of your reef tank.:rolleyes: )

[Chucker]

Originally posted by Stoli
Chucker:

Of greatest importance at this stage, in my opinion, we need to determine a direction. So, that said, if you had your choice, which way would you go. (You will, of course be held to your position and any attempts to change your mind or even reasonably consider the issue, will result in the immediate confiscation of your reef tank.:rolleyes: )

I really wouldn't make any sort of statement until after an initial meeting with the zoo folks to get the lay of the land, and see what their current system actually looks like behind the scenes. If they've got a 275 with a Skilter, then I'd say they need serious help. If it turns out they have a monster ETS behind the wall, then maybe they just need a bit of elbow grease on the weekends.

I wouldn't worry about having a complete plan laid out the first time you walk in the door to speak with them. Best to get an idea of what they've got, and what they need before saying "yep, this tank should be an SPS / clam reef with 4 400 watt hqis, a 6" deep sandbed, and a school of purple queen anthias" or something like that. Baby steps, folks. ;)

[Stoli]

Chucker and Dave:

I understand what you're saying. I don't think I was terribly clear on my last posts. I certainly don't think that anything more than the general direction should be determined at this point. However, if most of the group wants a FO, then discussing a reef with the zoo would be a waste of time. The reverse is also true. On a personal level, I would be disappointed if we went the FO direction and would be less inclined to heavily participate. Note that this is not meant as any type of threat. Rather, since I am kind of taking up the flag on this, everyone should be aware of my bias. Of greater significance, if too many others hold a similar point of view (whether favoring reef or FO), then the fears raised here regarding participation could be very well founded.

Now, a quick editorial:

Perhaps my greatest concern has to do the 'baby steps' comment. I have had both the good and bad fortune of being involved with several organizations, both non-profit and commercial. While careful planning and attention to detail are crucial to success, invariably those groups that were afraid to take a chance and think big were disappointed with the results. While dreamers often fail, when they succeed the results are truly magnificent. I personally would rather take a chance and have something exceptional to show for the effort.

JMHO

[_ShotgunShrimp_]

this tank is currently a fish only isnt it?? ive never seen it so i dont know.. and well to be honest if thats the case must be it doesnt generate alot of intrest.... (i dont include fake corals as a reef sorry)... and in my opinion if its not a reef even a simple one with zoanthids and lps and softys... why bother?? they can make a fish only tank... anyone can.. thats why alot of huge setups are fish only easy to do.. looks alright.. but its not "a slice of ocean" its a buncha fish in a box... why not do a koi pond?? same effect not as pretty fish... being a reefer i lean twoards it but to go nutz and put a buncha huge lights and all that on is a waste to.. we really need to find out where the zoo stands and what they are able to do.. so at this point its just a mute point.. ... i dunno maybee im missing something in all of this but if we can keep a reef without a ton of upkeep.. being smaller boxes why cant they with a huge box... a 500 gallon should support a ton more without the amazing loss of stuff as fast because it is larger... and things like calc reactors and automated timers and liter meters are the things that make it less work.. ok so now and then they need to take a scraper and polish a spot... most huge reefs of the sort are acrylic and look great.. but without knowing what the zoo is,can, and will do... its just thoughts :)

[_ShotgunShrimp_]

See what you started stoli Damn you... (ive never been involved even not being involved in such a way) i feel pasionate <bad SP> now about this... hehehehe WOHOO bring out the best in us more will yah :)

[fujimo32360]

I think we should start out fmwlr. When most of us started out it was a learning stage. the more we learned the better our tanks became. We start with fish and live rock. then begginers type corals,and finally sps. If we do it this way it would be a learning experince for the zoo staff.

[ReeferMac]

Wow, and to think I was busy working all day and missed this :-)

I think so far everyone agree's there are some very serious concerns about a project like this:

Long term viability/Burn-out
Budgetary concerns, both initial and long-term
Overall Affect on the populous (be it through fish and/or corals - lets face it, it's gotta be cool!)

So addressing each of those in their own way is simple. Burn-out you can't prevent, you can only spread it around and hope it doesn't kill you. At this point, I'm begining to think that this group is getting large enough, diverse enough, and apparently, involved enough, we need to start having some kind of formality to it. I'm sure we'll all reminisce about the days when a 6-pack, 12-inch pie and a fistful of Ziploc's were all you needed to host a meeting, but Chucker's right.. if this does take off and get's exposure, we're going to need (at least appear) to be organized. That in part I think will solve some of the burnout problems. We can break the tank maintenance chores down into some very simplified tasks, and assign a schedule. Make membership in the group conditional on your chores.. you can't make it, and can't find someone to fill in, you don't get to come to the meetings. Plain and simple. You wanna be a part of the group, then you gotta work (better than paying due's?) And even w/ the 20-some people we have now, that's what, couple of time's a year? Not hard IMO. Of course there are those... some people simply don't have time.. Do you discriminate? I think so... bribe another member to cover your shift. Sorry, you got time to hang out, suck beers, and swap frags, you got time to scrape corraline off w/ a credit card. Bring your kids, it'll be fun!
(OK, that may sound a bit harsh, but... This is one of the reality's of doing something like this, and may very well be a large concern of the zoo's staff. Get these hot-shots that think they know everything to come in here and setup a tank, let it go to hell, than stop coming in...)

Budget concerns - if the zoo can handle the juice, I don't see a problem with it... Careful planning can make a reef relatively cheap.. you don't have to buy 10K bulbs and swap them out every 6 months to have a successful tank... You don't have to have a thousand dollar skimmer, or a CaRXR from LifeReef... Bucket of Kalk and a siphon will work wonders you know... I think the budget we end up with, will in large part determine the setup. And if need be, we can prolly setup a donation box, or hit up the sponsors once a year to get this or that... who knows, hold a raffle at club meetings, 50% to the Zoo tank, etc... We can get creative on that end. The worst case to me would be to have HSBC Plunk $25K in our Lap and not know what to do with it!

Overall Affect - Face it, if it doesn't look cool the Upsate Reptile society will be banging down their door to do something different... I think the voting method Stoli's got going is sufficient to guage everyone's opinions (non-participants don't get a vote), and we can take it from there. It's quite possible to do both fish and reef in a tank, but some of each are mutually exclusive. Can't put really dumb fish in a tank with a large anemone, just the same, can't dose copper in a tank that has anything reeflike....

... which starts to get us into the politics of things. And since everyone's stating their opinions here (or have already), I'll just stop my little rant right there :p
('Course if you really wanna know how I feel about it, I'm a fast typist, and suffer from Diahrea of the fingers, so just ask ;-)

- Mac

[ReeferMac]

You know I just read Fuji's reply and it got me to thinking...

Assuming this is a tear down (I'm sure that tank is loaded with copper, it's all gotta be tossed in the lake), you're looking at boarding up the front of that tank for at least a few weeks while the sucker cycles....

Shallow or deep sandbed, Lots rock or very little corals or not... that puppy's gonna go through a cycle, one way or the other, the minute we start ****ing with it.

Something to think about when discussing this with the staff at the zoo. It may not be something to bring up, as they may not be too fond of the idea of losing their display for 4-6 weeks, all the while the Seahorse man claim's he'll have it changed over in a weekend.

- Mac

[Stoli]

Reefer:

First of all, you've got to get your priorities straight. Our hobby takes precendent over work. From now on, we expect you to pay attention to this site regardless of your job.

Second, as with everyone so far, you make some good points. While I wouldn't make anything mandatory on our group members, I believe (call me optimistic) that this group is sufficiently committed to the hobby that people would come through on maintenance.

Third, I think too much is being made of the cost issue. Of course, funding is important, but I really believe we will be able to raise sufficient funds. I've done fundraising before and the amount we would seek to make this work shouldn't be a significant issue. Moreover, the association with the zoo would help quite a bit in finding the necessary money.

Fourth, you and Fuji make a great point about cycling. Fortunately, this is one area where the zoo should be understanding. They are use to dealing with temporarily closed exhibits for the health of the livestock. However, we could make the cycling period an educational experience, perhaps providing a display explaining the nitrogen cycle.

Which brings me to my Fifth point. I vote for a plenum under the deep sand bed. (Of course, that's because I have that setup. Seems to work with very low maintenance and no skimmer though).

Finally, I think this thread is a huge credit to our group. All of the comments have been thoughtful and respectful. No matter how this turns out, I am both proud and gratified to be part of URS.

[ToddsReef]

I would vote for a reef. I think that there have been great ideas raised and I too appreciate both the enthusiasm and the caution. If it turns out that this huge tank doesn't work out I think that a much smaller reef tank could also be a great addition to any zoo and also an excellent way for the staff to learn about the hobby (in preparation for a huge reef in the future of course :smokin: ). A smaller reef is also a great way to introduce the hobby to the public in a way that is less intimidating and perhaps more likely to spark an interest in starting a reef of one's own.

Todd

[Stoli]

If you're interested, I've updated Todd's and Fujimo's vote.

[Gary Majchrzak]

Stoli, I commend you on stirring up this issue. It's not a new idea. All of us that have seen the aquarium KNOW something should be done. Chucker {Kevin} is correct- it is not OUR decision to make. But I agree with you in aiming high.'Rule by committee' has many drawbacks. Some'ONE' will make the final decision on that aquarium. Even if it means just maintaining what already exists a little 'better'. It is the ethical thing to do.Heck, if it comes down to it,if THAT person making the decision is reading this post- and nothing else can be done- email me and I'll agree to a service contract! I've been thinking about it for years anyway!

[dmorel]

Stoli (et all)

Allow me to clarify...
I would definitely vote for a reef if we were given free reign and determined that we could sufficiently maintain the system.

My comments were intended to spark discussion around the reuse of the current system, dealing with the short and long term care, the cost, and perhaps most importantly the politics of a public facility.
Additionally, concerns have been raised about the condition of the current tank and it's ability to house a reef.

My main point is that there are two discussions that can be had with the zoo.
One is that we help them get their display in order as its current state is unacceptable.
The second is that we think the current display is unacceptable, so we will 86 it and get them a new display.

If you're going to have conversation number two, then by all means change my vote to a reef.
If you're going to have conversation number one, I'll stick with the FO, but make it without live rock, since the coralline algae will be a problem as noted by Gary. Further more (though we may consider ourselves purists) without live rock and inverts medications could be used to treat sick fishes.

I would think that conversation number one would be an easier sell to a zoo. I would assume that while they are happy to take contributions from whomever is willing to donate, when it comes to offering to care for their exhibits they are considerably more cautious.
Perhaps the suggestions regarding making the club more "formal" should be considered with a high level of priority. If this is the case I can donate server space to host a tld (upstatereef.com/net/org is available).

-dm

[Stoli]

Having only spoken with the zoo twice at this point, I am unable to gauge the zoo's preferred direction. My goal however is to have conversation number 2 and really create something special. Once again however, I will certainly abide by the wishes of the group. So, can I put you down for a solid 'it depends'.:)

Right now, of those who stated a reasonably definite position, it seems that a reef is favored. Let's hear from the rest of you.

[_ShotgunShrimp_]

well here we are all decideing on stuff.. if this thing doesnt work out at the zoo its really to bad there wasnt some way to do a nice tank somwhere where people could enjoy it (strong hospital main lobby) or something along those lines where we could setup a cool system where people could see what it is to have a reef tank and how interesting it really is.. hmm just a thought... btw if it does come down to a go at the zoo i pledge a brown torch an equad (i now have 3 of them) and a curly Q lt anemone:)

oh well all pipe dreams at this point...

stoli you heard anymore from the zoo??

[Playfair]

Well, guess I better speak up so I don't get neglected... :twitch:

First of all, like a few others mentioned, we are jumping the gun here, as there has been no decision by the zoo to even consider this endeavor. However, since we are in "dream mode"...

There is no vote as far as I'm concerned on FO or Reef.
Yes, FO can be pretty cool with some nice killer fish, but we are the Upstate Reef Society! The vote should be on who would donate what, including time. Half the club is in or beyond Buffalo, that limits it to ~10. I'd love to share responsibility for a great public display tank, but I barely have time to keep my own tank up to par, with all those bulb changes and all :eek2:

Additionally, I can see us getting torn apart, and it's already started. Stoli wants a plenum. I don't. What now? Up to this point, Jamie, Kevin and myself (the founders) have kept the club completely "layed back", which is why the Buffalo guys left their club for this one. IMO, it's the best way to keep a bunch of people that "can't agree on what color white is", friends.
So who makes the big decisions? Jeesh, a lot of you guys haven't even passed the 1 yr point yet!

I guess my vote is that I am still hesitant over participating in this project, if only because of my "high standards" and the effort to reach them. Todd has a good idea with a small tank, perhaps located in the habitat building (with the otters) where there are small frog and bug habitats. Much more manageable IMO.
Our best bet may be to simply offer some advice to the zoo , perhaps by inviting a representative to attend our meetings?

Tell you what... If Stoli does make this happen, to make me feel more comfortable about the public display of this clubs "good name" (lol), lets agree to hold off on public admission until we hold a meeting at the zoo and unanimously vote so :)

[Guy]

I vote for a Leafy Sea Dragon display. :smokin:

Just kidding. If I were to vote now I'd have to say REEF. However, I'm a ways from the zoo and could only commit to maybe 1 day a month so I fel my vote should have less weight than the members doing most of the maintenance.

In a dream status I'd say to buy all new (glass) and use the existing tank as a nice refugium :D , my specialty...

Guy

[_ShotgunShrimp_]

yes deity oh yes deity anything else master if i could only have a reef like you Deity :)

just kidding great point dave.. i did forget that we are spread all over (btw i might have a guy comming in from syracuse) anyhow... i guess we move on with playing it by ear and see what they decide anyhow.. i mean after all it is there tank

:D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :smokin: :smokin: :smokin: :smokin: :smokin: :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D

[Gary Majchrzak]

Guy....it's amazing we think so similarly! A leafy seadragon display with that insulated acrylic tank would be great! I'm sure Chris Rudin thought of that possibility as well......

[Chucker]

Originally posted by ReeferMac
You know I just read Fuji's reply and it got me to thinking...

Assuming this is a tear down (I'm sure that tank is loaded with copper, it's all gotta be tossed in the lake), you're looking at boarding up the front of that tank for at least a few weeks while the sucker cycles....

- Mac

IMHO, this may be the best point raised so far. It's quite likely the zoo wouldn't be too happy about being told their large tank would be useless for a reef due to residual copper problems. This may drive us toward a straight FO tank if a new tank can't be procured.

[Gary Majchrzak]

Any changes will cause a cycle of sorts.No need to board it up. It will look better during the cycle than it does now! Chucker- GO SEE IT! ;)
Additional opinions of mine:{sticking to my policy of "A closed mouth gathers no foot!"}
This would be one of the greatest selfless achievements ANY club could boast of- helping to improve the local zoo.Please don't get bogged down in the TRIVIAL - 'what type skimmer','plenum or not','red fish or blue fish,one fish or two fish' - save that good stuff for LATER! I think this ought to bring us closer {!} together... not ruin friendships{!} GOOD GREEF! ... OK- snap outta dream mode, self ! :sleep:

[Zmann]

SHOTGUNSHRIMP that comment to Dave was totally uncalled for even if you were just joking. Keep your comments to yourself. Before someone takes it the wrong way and well you know!!

[Stoli]

Over the past few hours, I've done quite a bit of soul searching on this thread and its results. I believe I had a serious error both in judgment and courtesy. I want to apologize for stepping on anyone's toes by raising this issue without first discussing it privately with some of the longer term members. Dave is absolutely correct. I am a newcomer to the group and, compared to most of you, a relative newcomer to the hobby. As a result, my comments about maintenance and cost should be heavily discounted due to my lack of experience.

Even more serious, in my excitement over this issue, I failed to carefully consider the effect such an effort might have on our group. Without the generous advise, assistance, and provision of livestock from many of you, I would not be nearly as far along in my pursuit of a well designed and beautiful tank. The last thing I want to do is anything that upsets the collegiality of our members or the enjoyment of sharing our hobby with each other. It appears that I have done just that and I am truly sorry.

While I believe that setting up a reef at the zoo is a very worthy endeavor, it could never match the value this group and all of its members have to me. As a result of the foregoing, I am (metaphorically speaking) laying down the flag. If others wish to lead the charge, so be it. I remain willing to volunteer time, money and resources towards the project. If needed, I will assist with organization. I just don't think that I am the right person to lead the effort. Others in our group have far more experience, skill, and familiarity with our members and would be far better at assisting and/or advising the zoo and if they are so inclined.

I hope all of you understand that my motives were genuine and not intended to force anything on anyone. It was just an idea that I thought had some merit.

If a representative of the zoo contacts me, I will advise that we are considering the issue and will get back to them when and if we decide we can make a commitment.

[_ShotgunShrimp_]

it was ment as a joke.. i was refering to how nice his tank is and how !!!I!!! Strive to be like him.. and would follow him into anything becase he is a master of the reef.. if you havent seen it arround look.. there are many links and many people that talk about mistress reef.. on reefcentral reefs.org and the site where i hang.. candybass.com.... so just RELAX

is that better deity?? :)

[ReeferMac]

I vote you keep running with that Flag Stoli,

Your eloquence in writing is apparent, and experience as an orator no doubt will be more valuable than my experience and abilities to stammer and put my foot in my mouth ;-)

Besides, having initiated everything, I think it might look bad to suddenly switch contact people. I obviously don't speak for everyone, but you got my vote for the contact on this little project.

- Mac
(and don't sweat that other BS you were talking about, it hasn't changed a thing!)

[Guy]

Originally posted by Stoli
I just don't think that I am the right person to lead the effort. Others in our group have far more experience, skill, and familiarity with our members and would be far better at assisting and/or advising the zoo and if they are so inclined.

I totally disagree. So far you have asked for advice from the best reefers of the group and you have received candid answers. You, as organizer, do NOT need 20+ years of experience to take advantage of our group's combined knowledge.

As organizer you just need to weigh each opinion on its merit and practicality. This isn't going to split us apart, in fact I believe we DON'T want a highly experience reefer as organizer because of the inherent bias.

Whenever opposing views are brought forth and discussed we all learn. This project will be no different. Even if it never leaves the ground.

Please stay as organizer. Your passion will be invaluable in this position.

Guy

[Chucker]

Over the past few hours.... {snip}

stoli, I wouldn't worry too much about it. This really started as your idea that you brought forth to the group at large. I see no problem at all with you "leading the charge"- it was your idea after all. Who's to say whether anyone else would have the same drive to carry it through to completion, as URS, a sub-group or individually?

Part of the problem I see is that we're an informal group trying to make a formal decision. We have no solid membership list, officers, club dues, mission statement... etc. It seems everyone suddenly has a stake in the issue, even though interest didn't exist to do anything about it before. I'll be the first to admit that I've never even been to the zoo, even though I have lived here for 10 years now. I really have no idea to figure out how to handle the issue of ownership/membership/stakeholding, as it seems that this might be the direction that things are headed in. If anyone has any ideas to help solve that sticky issue, I'm all ears.

Even if the group as a whole can't decide what to do, that is no reason for nothing to be done at all. There's no law written in stone that says there has to be a big shiny brass plaque next to the tank that says "UPSTATE REEF SOCIETY". It'd be a shame if nothing gets done because of a bit of internal squabbling here.

[_ShotgunShrimp_]

You came with a great idea.. support in any way shape or form for our hobby and viewing enjoyment is comendable... to give in now would be crazy... keep hot on them.. even if we dont get into setting up and helping We at least see that as a group we pull together and can actually accomplish alot... all these guys are Great they will all do almost anything for anyone.. ive had guys talk to me to wee morning hours in support and help and ive met guys late at night to do a trade or just hang... you have brought out the best in the group... dont sweat the small stuff man.. its only words continue.. Grab the reigns.. crack that whip... :) we are behind you...

[Guy]

Originally posted by Chucker
We have no solid membership list, officers, club dues, mission statement... etc.

Upstate Reef Society Mission Statement -
URS will pursue and expand the knowledge and expertise of captive reefkeeping in Upstate New York and beyond and consume mass quantities.

I nominate Gary for Prez and Stoli for Secretary.

[Playfair]

Stoli, Your enthusiasm and your fairness is commendable. You deserve to head this project! I was just voicing my concerns.

Perhaps this possibility has shown that it may be time for the club to get serious, though I know many of us like the way it is :beachbum:

A hirearchy was never required to hang out and share a few beers and frags. But if some want to take us to the next level, we can discuss it at the upcoming meeting. I do believe that Kevin, Jamie, and myself should have a major say in how the club develops, as we started it (Sorry to pull rank).

[_ShotgunShrimp_]

dave i agree you and the other founders should have say... but to make us a real club like that might cause constraint issues as you mentioned b4 the buf guys had left a club cause of problems... i agree if this zoo thing moves ahead there should be some sort of "leadership" but to make the oridinary meets "diffrent" i wouldnt change a thing. (just an opinion)

the easy going and nice way that people socialize and chat and form there own little "inner club" meeting (some talkin macro algae here while others are talkin plenums over there...) makes the meets that much more fun cause you can surf and see what intrests you and maybee put in your two cents (or an idea no one has thought of b4 ) just makes the meets to me that much more fun... and to loose a member (sad to see todd go) kinda leaves a small void in the "conversations" just being an observer still without many opinions.. i see that there are normaly groups arround kevin,dave,kevin and todd... with other groups forming with other discsussions going on... (next meet watch youll see it yourself if you didnt notice) it just makes it all that much more fun and to bring uniformity to choas would just dull it down and make it.. not so much fun..

oh well i spoke Flame me if you wish :uzi:

:p :D :p :D :p

[Zmann]

:beer:

[Gary Majchrzak]

Sigh!...... I ran to the library computer at lunch time to find the thread taking this turn of events...? Stoli...NEVER SURRENDER! For the sake of what's left alive in that tank at the zoo right now...please DO NOT LAY DOWN THE FLAG! Remember the bigger picture. With or WITHOUT URS association, some improvement on that aquarium is necessary. I do not like taking my kids to the zoo and seeing that tank! I wonder how many others secretly thought to themselves something should be done to improve it.... Please hold the course!

[ToddsReef]

I keep telling myself not to post to this thread as I am leaving and it is not my business, but I care a lot about the club and its members so I can't resist.

Again, the points brought up thus far have been excellent, but I agree that perhaps there is a bigger question that needs to be asked first. What effect will this have on the club?

The club to this point has been focused mostly on fun, learning and frags. IMO we don't need organization to continue if those remain as our priorities. Then we need to ask, do we want organization? What will be the positive and negative aspects of formal organization?

While we are all adults, this hobby is curiously emotional and I am worried that when attempting to "evolve" the group as a whole might suffer. About the best comparison that comes to mind is that of an antique car club. If you asked thirty people in such a club to create one car that would represent the whole club, it is likely that such an attempt would be laden with conflict and hard feelings, not from lack of expertise from all involved but from the very difference in opinions that keeps the hobby interesting.

So I guess it is obvious that I feel that there is an inherent risk to the club itself by taking on this project, so I have a suggestion:

Why not have those people interested in continuing with the project be a part of a "committee" (as a seperate entitiy from the club) that could consist of anybody who is willing to invest themselves in one way or another in the zoo's tank...and keep the club as is. Within such a committee there could be a great deal of organization and planning and yet there would be less risk posed to URS...everyone could get together for our regular meetings and there could remain no "dues","hierarchy", or "responsibilities" for those who don't want them (but who also love being a part of the club).

Lastly: Stoli... as I said in the beginning this is an awesome project and I think you are an excellent person to head up such a committee not only for your devotion to this endeavor but for your interpersonal skills that would be ESSENTIAL to fundraising and interacting with the zoo.

Todd

[ToddsReef]

Sorry if this my post was redundent, while I was writing it three more people replied! :D

Todd

[Gary Majchrzak]

Excellent post, Todd. It's not redundant.Obviously the idea of even thinking about helping the zoo with a marine display is straining relationships already!I wouldn't want to lose friends over that tanks issues, or drag the URS name into an association that is less than satisfactory to some of the founding three members.{Wasn't I #4 or 5?!}
I do not envision that public display EVER being as nice as any of our personal tanks....with SPS and other HIGHLY sensitive inverts.
However.... I'll never forget the amazement on peoples face when first encountering even a "low-light" soft coral reef aquarium.A tankload of easy to care for fluorescent purple 'shrooms would simply knock many of the zoo patrons over!
If the Buffalo contingent of the club wanted to improve a tank in Erie county,you certainly would have my vote to proceed,sight unseen.And I do not think I would want to change the informality of the club,nor do I believe it necessary. I don't get out and about for many beers anymore!!!After receiving a phone call from Dave yesterday and sleeping on it,I guess I think from a different viewpoint regarding URS involvement in that aquarium or other 'public' reef related issues.But I HIGHLY value Dave's input and friendship- and believe he would be a GREAT asset in helping the zoo's tank...To keep the focus on improving that tank, maybe Todd is correct- a committee approach is best.And if you feel neglected{!}- please post.Zoo board members will be reading this as well as possible sponsers.It would be a shame if those of us willing to share input with the zoo were not able too.I'm still excited about the prospect: 8 years into this hobby and the honeymoon is still on!

[Charles Oesterly]

I spoke with my friend John Nuccitelli who is on the Board of Directors at the Zoo(He also has his own private zoo). John is a reef keeper and is planning to attend our next meeting at Todd's.
He is in favor of a reef tank at the Zoo and proposed one several years ago that Carribean Forrest would have set up and gotten publicity for. The Zoo Vet was against the idea because of the hobby taking from the ocean and that was the end of it.
I explained that it was possible to use propagated species instead. John said he would bring it up again with the Board members and help any way he could.

[ReeferMac]

I explained that it was possible to use propagated species instead.

Well ****... We can guarantee nothing but Tank Raised Corals!

You heard the man, nuthin but FRAGS! F2 or better!
We could aquaculture the rock, get SouthDown for a Sandbed... Captive Propagation, write up a big stink about it, the Zero-impact reef on Display at Rochester's Zoo...

Think about it.

(why does that wack-o from "Falling Down" always pop into my head when I repeat that phrase?)

- Mac

[Stoli]

After giving this whole thing much more thought (I've got to get a real job), if nobody objects, I'd like to reenter the fray. I really think this can be done, and done well. Todd had a really good idea of forming an ad hoc committee of people really committed to the project. The committee (I hate that word, too formal) should probably meet ASAP because I'd like us to get together prior to meeting with the zoo. Worst case, we can set up a little meeting on this board; it'll just be a bit awkward.

Thanks to everyone for the words of encouragement and both the ideas suggested and the criticism. It has all been very constructive and shows a level of maturity that you don't usually see in such groups.

On a related note, I've started talking to some people, on a hypothetical level, about raising some money for the project and most seem receptive, especially after I show them some tanks on this board and others. I really think that once we have an idea of what we want the hardware budget won't be too difficult to reach. Then again, I still get disappointed when I don't win the lottery.:(

I'm going to try to touch base with Chris Rudin tomorrow and I'll let everyone know how it goes.

BTW: Charles: I heard that same story from a friend of mine who used to be involved with the zoo. The conservation issue was important, but from what I heard, the long term care was also an issue. Hopefully, we can address both.

[Guy]

Woo-Hoo!!!

Stoli got back on the horse!

Welcome back :D

[Gary Majchrzak]

This is absolutely all GREAT news! There are reeftanks on display containing only captive raised inhabitants. But they are far and few between. It would be BIG news for our zoo to have one of these on display! I am EXCITED! Stoli- regardless of what trade you ply- 'yer OK in my book! ;)
Can we get funding for a big Starphire glass tank?
oops! Sorry - "Dream Mode" again! Wake up, self!

[ReeferMac]

Actually, thinking more and more about this..

Aquacultured rock from Florida.
I know you can get cultured Live Sand.. just don't know where.
Most of Inland Aquatics stuff is all TR, so getting anything from them would be A-OK...

It's do-able. Certainly w/ some of the corals we have. Remember too, it's kinda cheating, but if you go out and buy a wild head, break a branch off and mount it, when it grows out, that's F2... Steve Tyree's frags and clams are all grown out (dunno if that counts as "Captive Raised", but you get the idea).

We could do something like this. Choice in fish selection would be severely limited, but nonetheless, ORA has some nice selection of reef fish.

- Mac

[Stoli]

Mac:

Check out this link for farmed live rock.

http://www.tampabaysaltwater.com

I've never ordered from them but I've heard some pretty good feedback. Certainly no worse than some of the other live rock MO.

Anyone here every order from them?

[Gary Majchrzak]

Some of my liverock is from this long established and well known 'farm'. I did not order it directly, though. There are MANY threads on RC attesting to this rock's quality -just do a search. In many respects this rock is superior to Pacific rock. Good luck today, Stoli. Lord knows our zoo has MANY challenging issues. :wavehand:

[Guy]

Originally posted by Stoli
Anyone here every order from them?

I have 150# of it in my reef. The rest is Gulf-View. I like them both but it will be difficult to remove all the crabs and mantis. I'm VERY pleased with what I received.

[_ShotgunShrimp_]

i can get both AC livesand and AC live rock... wich is both refind with NO CRABS and or Mantiss... just gotta get in touch with a friend is all :)

[Stoli]

I spoke with Chris Ruedin at the zoo today. While he is still considering a seahorse tank, we did discuss our group's goals and aspirations for the tank. He said he was going to discuss it with others at the zoo and get back to me next week.

I mentioned to him that I would be sending him some reef links so as to give him some background on what we've been discussing.

Two questions came to mind.

1. Should I give him a link to either this thread or the Upstate Reef Society?

2. Other than RC, what other links would you suggest?

Just to let everyone know, I explained that the group generally does not appear to be interested in setting up or maintaining a seahorse tank since we believe that the probability of success is quite low.

[cperson]

IMO, I wouldn't encourage him visit RC, too confusing, just us babberfingers kabitzing (sp). Link him up to our web site, there's plenty of nice stuff for him to see there.

[Guy]

Stoli,

Any news? Or are you saving it for Saturday?

Just curious.

Guy

[Stoli]

No news yet. I e-mailed Chris today with some reef sites including RC and our home page. Results will be interesting.