Seperating out the bangais as pairs

[michaelg]

Hi Frank-

I wrote a while back about the baby bangers I obtained. They were about 6 weeks old back in december. I obtained 5 of them and put them in my refugium, which is loaded with algaes (I usually can not see too far into it except after a heavy pruning). When feeding these guys, I see a pair in one corner normally, another pair in the middle, and usually one in another corner- So I think 2 pairs have been established, the odd fish shows no signs of being beaten up, but they are pretty small still.

I am thinking it is time to get them out of the refugium (please speak up if I should wait longer). I plan to pull almost all of the algae, transfer it to a small tank to keep it, let the fish re-establish their "turfs", then try to selectively partition them off. The refuge is a little hard to get into though (acrylic, with mostly covered top). Would I be better off getting them all out of there, transfer to a 10 gallon tank, and then seperate? Will the pairings keep I guess is my real question here, or will it take a month until they sequester themselves off again.......any suggestions more than welcome.

Michael

[Wild Card-inal]

Seeing as how people here will take the male out to release the young, then after that keep it out for a while longer to fatten it up again, and then re-introduce the fish only for them to breed again, I'd say that there shouldn't be problems.

I hate to tell you this, but related fish are not the best to keep together and have them pair up. This is because the young of those fish will have a much higher chance of birth defects. Not a good thing.

[michaelg]

Yeah- but that is with 1 established pair. I need to keep 2 pairs that are together and an odd one straight..I just am trying to avoid a long period of them figuring out who is who and potential battles.

:)

[FMarini]

Hi Michael:
still at the NIH?
So right off the bat i will say that if you do remove all the plants you will have to find some way of physically seperating the pairs, as once a male is carrying no other banggais will be allowed to hang around. If you can provide a seperator or partition, then this will certinly save the fish. The loner needs to find a new home.

If you are seeing the fish hanging out together all day then they are most likely pairs. At 5+ months of age, you're getting close to seeing breeding activity.
How easy is it to remove these fish, and the plant work?
frank
PS we can discuss genetics later on this

[michaelg]

Y'up I'm still here at NIH and will be for a little while still- let me know if your coming up here (conferences, etc), as naturally I would be happy to show you around town (and perhaps try to persuade you to give a talk tou our society- we have several people breeding different fish at this time, and many more interested).
I am only planning on keeping one pair. The other pair already has a home, as does the odd fish. I think I am going to just try to catch them first without ripping everything out of the refugium, if this fails, then I will break it down and transfer the fish to a 10 gallon, and after I identify the pairs, the odd fish will go in a five gallon (or partition off the 10 gallon) until picked up and the pair I am going to keep will go in my tank. I am almost certain of the pairings after watching them again last night. they have definately taken to zones in the refugium as described. I think I could have caught them last night, but am probably kidding myself as they will likely bolt for cover. FWIW I feel the refugium was a great place to rear them- they had a lot of security, a good food supply, and it was big enough that they weren't cramped. The drawbacks- I could not observe them as much as I would have liked to have, and now, getting them out. All 5 made it though, so I am pleased with the end result.

Now, as for the genetics discussion, we had talked about that a little before, and I read through your previous posts per your suggestion. Concensus was from what I read was that there was not enough data, though I should expect some need for culling. Experience tells us to some degree that repeated inbreedings lead to higher frequency of abnormal phenotypes, and I do not plan to do this. Do you by chance have any information on clownfish, as they have been probably the most captive breed marine fish, and I wonder how many people already have sibling pairs (I question if I do with the 2 pairs I have- as they came from the same shipment). Down the road, I will do my best to try to make the offspring available with another breeding stock in the area, so that they are not line breed. I will also be happy to bring down some of the fish from this area to Houston (I still come down there about 4 times a year) to enrich the local stock down there. Any new data that I should be aware of on this subject?????

[Guy]

Michael,

If the refugium is ever in total darkness you can easily catch them by turning on ALL the lights at once. This will temporarily blind them and they will pretty much just let you pick them up.

May I suggest you pick a pair and put them in the display tank and leave the other 3 until they are transferred to their new home. Once your pair is alone you will probably start to see the female shimmer in front of the male.

Guy

[michaelg]

Thanks- that might work. I'll be thinning out the algae this week to give a bunch away at one of our club meetings, and that will improve access quite a bit. If it is not too difficult, I could do the same thing before the others are picked up. If it works, this will save a lot of trouble. Should I just hand scoop them? Might need to in the fuge?

I have no idea what you mean by shimmer- is that part of the courting behavior?

Michael

[Guy]

Shimmer is my misspelling of shimmy :rolleyes: sorry it's the pre-mating ritual to get the male "in the mood" (candles are ineffective in saltwater).

I use a small container to scoop mine. I'm not sure what you'd like with a cramped space but maybe set a clean jar in and guide the fish into it with your hand. Try not to actually touch them though... this seems to wake them up.

[michaelg]

Here is an update of my progress (or lack thereof) with this method of establishing pairs.

Last weekend, I moved the 5 little guys to a 5 gallon tank with some chunks of live rock in it. At first they naturally hid for a while, due to the new environment. I sat and watched them for about 30 minutes last night (first chance I had some open time to really watch them since the move). Here is what I observed-
Smallest one- wants to be with the others, but is chased away (maybe a small male?) This one will probably need to get out first.
One particular one hangs out by itself- will chase others away, doesn't like to be bothered.
Other 3 hang out together in the middle of the water column.

All run and hide to the same spot. I rearranged the live rock a little last night in the holding tank, so maybe that will help.

This is rather different than what I saw when they were in the refugium, but then again, it was difficult to see through the dense algae in there.

Maybe I should move them to a 10 gallon holding tank with more room? This is definately not as easy to figure out as I hoped. I am going to snap some pictures of them tonight with the hopes of being better able to tell them apart- the 3 that hang out together I can tell the difference between 1 of them (real long second dorsal fin)- the other 2 not yet.

Any thoughts? I think I may have 3 males and 2 females??? Would one male keep 2 females around?
Insights to young bangaii group behaviors appreciated here.

Thanks,
Michael