Anyone need to boost their diatom population?

[kcolagio]

Yep, you read right...boost the diatom population.

Snails eat them, sponges can use them, and presumably so can other critters in our tanks. But most of us have a RO, DI, or RO/DI unit that gets rid of the silicate that the diatoms need to create a body.

Well, after posting in the chemistry forum, Randy mentioned that Sodium Silicate can be used to boost the silicate level, giving the diatoms something to do on Saturday nights. ;)

So here I sit, with a 1 gallon jug of sodium silicate. Randy also mentioned that 1 gallon would probably satisfy everyone's need at Reef Central for quite a while. I have problems understanding all the number and how they inter-relate when it comes to chemicals, but basically, I think 6 ml of a 1:100 ratio mix of this stuff will boost the silicate level nicely.

Anyone need or want any? :D

[Gary Majchrzak]

Kevin,please be careful adding that stuff.I've found that a gallon of tapwater contains enough silicates to bring on much diatom growth in my 220.I know people with excellent diatom growth- they don't use water purifiers.Just tapwater.They have fat snails and blennies.Too many diatoms can smother sessile invertebrates.It will also turn a purple reef golden-brown,IME.

[ReeferMac]

Don't take this the wrong way, but...

ARE YOU NUTS?!?!?!

- Mac

[kcolagio]

Gary,

I used the TWP (Tap Water Purifier) for years and have an RO showing up today.... I have not had a real diatom bloom since I originally setup the tank. I plan on being VERY careful with this stuff. It is relatively syrup-y in consistancy, so I know a drop of this is not equal to a drop of water.

Mac,

I've been reading about diatoms growth for a few months now...here's what I have found out (that others may not know...)

1) diatoms are a type of phytoplankton, and as such, are one of the lowest rungs on the food web.

2) diatoms are a nutrient "battery". They are a collection of nutrients contained within a shell....a shell that is loosely connected and can (somewhat) easily be taken apart.

3) sponges, copepods, snails, conchs, and a variety of filter feeders can use datoms as a food source, and because of their "storage" type of condition, they can pack a nutitional wallop.

4) tying up the nutrients like this keeps those same nutrients from algae...and the nutrients in this form are NOT usable by corals.

5) One gallon of the sodium silicate costs $22 delivered... 16 ounces of DTs costs about the same....and has a MUCH shorter shelf life. ;)

*shrug* I'm also not going for the pristine tank look. It's not natural, and while it does look nice, I think the natural look is more...well....natural! :D and easier to maintain. ;)

[kcolagio]

Oh, Mac, forgot to mention....

Of course I'm nuts. I have a reef tank. :D

[ReeferMac]

*shrug* I'm also not going for the pristine tank look. It's not natural, and while it does look nice, I think the natural look is more...well....natural! and easier to maintain.

LOL... Have you seen my tank ? :D
Plenty 'O Crap growing in there too. I share the same philosophy as well, I'd just be hesitant to deliberately add something like that to the tank.. just to grow diatoms of all things. Hell, you can take a pile of slop out of my refugium, and just start over-feeding, get basically the same thing :-)

- Mac

[Gary Majchrzak]

Kevin, if you like the 'natural' look you are going to have to get over and check out my 'natural disaster!' :D

[kcolagio]

Of course, that would depend on what's in your slop. :)

I have a lot of stuff growing...but most of it can't be used by the filter feeders. The conchs and snails are in for the bonus, but this isn't really for them. :)

I have a phytoplankton culturing kit showing up today....I hope. After that, I'll have more variety in what I can offer the tank, and (hopefully) have some extra to sell....I'll have to see how it goes.

The diatoms will just be more to add to the list of consumables for the tank. :)

If you want to look, recent pics can be seen at:
http://www.webim-inc.com/aquarium ....it's not the prettiest, but it's shaping up better than in the past. Pretty basic, but I'm slowly being able to afford stuff to move things along.

Later.

[RandyO]

My question would be, What other marine life would use the extra Si in the water? What about other algaes? There may be other bad guys that would like some extra Si. No offense, but your tank seems to have a good source of nutrition somewhere. And I can see why you might take this approach. In the hopes that the diatoms will suck out the nutrients from the tank and choke out undesirable algae.
Just proceed with caution.

[kcolagio]

Here's the main bulk of information I've picked up, but I've read info at a few other places (by other people) as "second opinions"...
http://www.animalnetwork.com/fish2/aqfm/2000/feb/features/1/default.asp

Note that this article is over 2 years old....

[Gary Majchrzak]

Kevin, you may be interested in seeing a reef display at the Ontario Science Centre in Toronto.It is a 'natural'method caribbean reef biotope.I am very curious as to what you are doing.You have stated you just received an RO unit.Please don't tell me it has a high-silicate removing membrane!If you could keep us updated with the outcome of this diatom nutrient culture experiment,I would be greatly interested and thankful. Gary

[kcolagio]

I've been using a TWP (Tap Water Purifier) for years. The RO/DI I just got has (obviously) a DI unit. Rationale: there is other stuff that gets through that I don't want.

I have never had a silicate "problem" (I use SeaChem's test kit and never had measurable amounts), so getting the RO/DI was no big change there.

I'll probably be trying to start a diatom culture (next to the phytoplankton and Rotifer cultures) in the next few weeks....we'll see. If so, I can scrape the sides and get the diatoms into the water column and then dump that into the tank...maybe I'll use the new screen (53 micron) that came with the phyto kit to concentrate them (I need to check their size).

Does anyone know if diatoms "die out completely" in an established tank?

[Gary Majchrzak]

I would venture to guess that although a diatom extinction IS possible in a closed captive system, everyone that has an established reef has them.They are really only noticeable when in 'bloom'- usually at the startup of a new reef system.

[ReeferMac]

(next to the phytoplankton and Rotifer cultures)

Meant to ask you, how's that coming?
I've tried the phyto before, and just couldn't keep the water sterile. I've been tempted to try the Rotifer's this time, and just feed them DT's or something.

- Mac

[kcolagio]

I'll let you know after I start it up. :)

I just got the kit yesterday, so now I'm reading the book and waiting for a replacement part on the RO (I'm hoping I can use RO water and not sterile water).

There are a few ideas I have for the sterile water idea...all taken from the wine making I tried in the past (didn't work out super well, but hey, it taught me something useful!)...

I just wish I had a decent area to setup all the stuff I want to do....right now, I'm limited to a closet for most of it....and that doesn't work out too well. :(

Anyone have a basement I can take over? :D

[ReeferMac]

LOL... I _quietly_ argued for putting the tanks upstairs, and in the end gave it up for full reign of the basement. I could charge you rent, but.... I'll have to finish up a couple of my other projects first :-)

- Mac

[ReeferMac]

To get the RO water even better... plumb your TWP inline after the RO membrane... that's basically an RO/DI then.

I don't know if it will do the "Sterile" thing for you either.. while the water's really pure, it's got bacteria and whatnot in it still, as well as the tubing it travels through, the container's you'll most likely be holding it in, etc...

That's what killed me on the phyto cultures. Everything got contaminated quickly, and I couldn't aerate it enough to keep it in suspension... all started growing on the sides and clumping together because of the bacterial growth.

Aerate it too much, and it's bad for the algae.
Not enough, the bacteria grows all over it and clumps it together. I think it might have been partly the container's I was using too... old 2L soda bottles. Worked great, but were a PIA to clean, so I rarely did. Nuking old tank water for 10 mintutes didn't do the trick either apparently :-). And then of course having to start each successive culture off the first one... I was doomed from the start.

- Mac

[kcolagio]

Hmmm....well....

I plan on going the 2 liter soda bottle route too...but to keep the flow rate high, I am working on a CO2 feed....you know, something they can use too. ;)

Now I just have to find a cheap source of CO2 (yeast doesn't seem to be cutting it). I don't have the extra $60 for a cylinder from SouthTown right now. :(

We have a split level...the tank is on one of the lower levels...so it has a solid floor under it, and isn't too bad to get water to.

Later.

[_ShotgunShrimp_]

i dont get it people have such a hard time with it.. my "bugtank" is a phyto culture and grows rotifers mysis bristles and every other bug and critter you can think of... no extra crap just lety it roll .... oh well i guess one wants to work harder than normal is all :)

[kcolagio]

Under "normal" (whatever the hell that is) situations, the rotifer population would out pace the microalgae growth rate and you would end up with virtually no microalgae. This is my understanding anyway... From what I have heard/read, the rotifers would just keep eating and reproducing until there was no food, and then they would die out.

Are you sure they are rotifers and not pods of some sort (or even diatoms, which are another phytoplankton)? Rotifers are so small, you can't see them with the naked eye...same with diatoms....

Just wondering....I'd be interested in knowing what your setup looks like if you do have both of those co-habitating. :)

[Gary Majchrzak]

Kevin C. or M., or any other interested 'phyto-pharmers': I have Frank Hoff's 'Plankton Culture Manual' and 'Identification Manual for Microalgae' I can let you borrow from my library. I also have useful tools and knowledge of maintaining nanochloropsus and rotifer cultures I'd be willing to share. I highly recommend you obtain Florida Aqua Farms aquaculture supply catalog. I think Frank Hoff still runs the show down there. I maintained these cultures to enable me to raise larval clownfish 7 years ago. My memory is kinda fuzzy on certain fine points. But I do remember it is a LOT of work. And sterile conditions are a MUST. Get some larval clownfish to make this project worthwhile, IMO. Otherwise just purchase DT's. Of course, back in '95- this was not an option!

[kcolagio]

Wow....this thread is drifting a little. :)

Gary, on Wednesday (this past one), I got my mini-starter kit from FAF as well as some Tetraselmis (sp?) as an add on. I'm reading the book every chance I get, and plan on starting this as soon as I reasonably can...

As a thought, should we shift this particular topic to another new topic and pick up from there? It is all plankton, so I guess it doesn't matter much. :)

Oh, as an update to my diatom growths...the snails seem very happy going around and cleaning the tank. In fact, I now have some egg sacs (about 8 of them) on my glass since adding the silicate. Each egg sac has about 10 to 12 eggs in it. The sacs are clean, the eggs are white. Anyone want to venture a guess as to what type they are (stometella, astrea, or nassarius)?

Later.

[Guy]

Originally posted by kcolagio
In fact, I now have some egg sacs (about 8 of them) on my glass since adding the silicate. Each egg sac has about 10 to 12 eggs in it. The sacs are clean, the eggs are white. Anyone want to venture a guess as to what type they are (stometella, astrea, or nassarius)?

Strombus maculatus.

[kcolagio]

Cool.

They only showed up a day after I added the sodium silicate.

Makes you wonder if the silicate is the trigger for the snails to start reproducing....interesting idea I may have to experiment with....or find someone who would want to try....

*looks around* Oh, there you are Guy.....*grin*

[ReeferMac]

Those egg sacs sound similar to the one's that started appearing on my tank after I got the "Strombus Grazers" from IPSF... Little 3-sided dome on the glass, with the dot's inside? Does it have a "Hatch" at the top of the dome? Or are they more in a "sac" just hanging there on the glass? Those I've seen coming out of the Nassarius.

- Mac

[kcolagio]

I'll try and post a picture later.

[kcolagio]

Sorry, can't post pics...they are too small.

The egg sacks are about 1/16 of an inch across and about 1/8 of an inch tall. They are kinda flat on top and each contains about 12 eggs.

There are now 13 sacs....about 4 more show up each night.

Let's see...if they all hatch, then I'll have a LOT of snails...*grin*

[Guy]

Kev,

Do they look anything like this?

http://guynterry.com/reef/critters/strombus_eggs.jpg

[ReeferMac]

Yup! Those are them!

- Mac

[kcolagio]

Kind of....but not as round. Slightly more oval or triangular looking...

Kinda like this:
~~_~~
~/.\~
~|.|~
~+.+~
~~V~~

Wow...that looks bad, but it's the general idea. The tildas (~) are spacers and not part of the shape (in case you were wondering....). There are more than 3 eggs in them.

[kcolagio]

Well, it looked bad after all... :( Maybe your font will make it look nice.