Cyanide article

[dizzy]

Hi Steven,
Let me be the first to say I think you did a good job with the article. I could point to a few things I might not totally agree with, but I don't really have the desire to do so, at this time. I think in addition to warning people about bad retail stores, in fairness you should also mention that many internet companies are not open for public inspection so they may just as bad or worse than poorly kept retail stores. I'm not a fan of either. So anyway keep up the good work.
Mitch Gibbs

[Steven Pro]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=6425554#post6425554 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by dizzy
I think in addition to warning people about bad retail stores, in fairness you should also mention that many internet companies are not open for public inspection so they may just as bad or worse than poorly kept retail stores. I agree with you Mitch. I don't quite understand buying livestock as a hobbyist sight unseen. I much prefer to evaluate my purchases with my own eyes.

[dizzy]

Steven,
First I want to state that I am firmly in the camp that believes cyanide is very bad. However I would also like to add that we were discussing cyanide and net caught on rdo a while back. We were talking about how net caught fish are more likely to injure themselves fighting and thrashing around to get away than an anesthetized fish. When considering the effects of stress and related mortality, one should at least ponder the thought, that a drugged fish might be able to better handle the rigors of post capture poor handling, somewhat better than a fully alert and freightened fish. While cyanide is probably one of the poorer choices, a less harmful anesthetic might be useful. I believe Borneman (Coralmania) suggested clove oil as one possibility, but Rubec relied on rdo that Cervino's research indicated that clove oil may damage corals as well. Clearly more research is needed on this subject. So the ironic possibilty is that cyanide may actually kill many fish and save some others as well. The real tragedy is the damage it does to the coral habitat.
Mitch

[Steven Pro]

You may have a point, but at the same time I am thinking of how people capture other animals. That idiot that wrestles alligators and crocodiles on TV has repeated numerous times that drugs are more dangerous than tackling those poor creatures. I don't know if he is full it or not, but either way finding a good anaesthetic would require a great deal of research in finding out what is safe for fishes, does no collateral damage, and can be delivered in a consistent manner out in the ocean. It is this last point which strikes me as the most problematic.

[dizzy]

Who would like to go into surgery with a team of bouncers to hold them down while the doctors cut on them? The answer may lie in applying the anesthetic after capture with nets.
Mitch

[Steven Pro]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=6428788#post6428788 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by dizzy
Who would like to go into surgery with a team of bouncers to hold them down while the doctors cut on them? I don't know if this analogy is apt. A better one might be would you rather be bound or sedated when kidnapped, although that is much too anthropomorphic for my tastes.

[BrianPlankis]

Steven,

Great article! It was kind of weird reading it, because it was like a mirror of my thoughts. Well almost, personally I think cyanide is about one of the most evil practices in this hobby and I wish wholesalers would refuse to buy from suppliers that are known to use cyanide or even require proof of no cyanide use. Unfortunately there is still demand from that average tank keeper because they make impulse purchases. I hope this changes in the near future! But I digress, excellent job saying what you feel without being inflamitory.

Do you know of any good book, website or resource that lists how fish are caught? For example, I love the fish Opistognathus aurifrons (Yellow headed jawfish), but so far I have been unable to find much information on how they are captured. webwetmedia mentions they can be induced to leave their burrow, but is that the most common collection method?

A website, book, journal, etc that listed that could be valuable to hobbyists that care.

Brian

[Steven Pro]

I don't know of any such resource. There is that Jonklaas book that I referenced in my article, but it seems to be very old. Other than that, just talking to people in the industry might be your best bet. Sitting down at one of the big conferences and chatting with folks like Bob Fenner, Steve Robinson, Morgan Lidster, etc. Seeing how MACNA is going to be in your backyard this summer, I would start there.

[dizzy]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=6431821#post6431821 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by CirolanidHunter
Steven,

Do you know of any good book, website or resource that lists how fish are caught? For example, I love the fish Opistognathus aurifrons (Yellow headed jawfish), but so far I have been unable to find much information on how they are captured. webwetmedia mentions they can be induced to leave their burrow, but is that the most common collection method?

A website, book, journal, etc that listed that could be valuable to hobbyists that care.

Brian

We have discussed this on another site. Brian most of the yellowheaded jawfish are caught using quinaldine. It is commonly used in Florida where many of these are entering the trade from. I think you can be safe in assuming cyanide is not used. There are other techinques that can be used to coach them out with a tickle stick or something, but apparently most collectors opt for the faster method. It is currently legal IIRC and lots of researchers collect this way.
Mitch

PS
Steven I was thinking about surgery on the crock. What do they do then?

[BrianPlankis]

Thanks Mitch and Steven for the responses,

Good to hear cyanide isn't used, I wonder if quinaldine affects their reproductive system? (Since I want to attempt to get a mated pair for trying to breed them). I see Bob Fenner is coming to MACNA this year, I'll see if I can bend his ear on the issue.

Thanks,

Brian

[baobao]

Steve,
First, congrats on the nice article.

Is there a way to incorporate prophylactic treatment as part of the quarantine process when receiving new fish?

I read (I think from www.wetwebmedia.com) that Methyl Blue is effective from cynaide or nitrite poisoned fish. Are you familiar with this? Is that why some people do dips in MB when they first get new fish?

[Steven Pro]

I recall some people talking about methylene blue being helpful (I believe Nelson Herwig was one of the first), but it is just an unproven theory as far as I know. Since we don't definitively know what impact cyanide has on fish that survive the initial exposure, there is no way on knowing how to treat them.

[dizzy]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=6438946#post6438946 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by baobao
Is there a way to incorporate prophylactic treatment as part of the quarantine process when receiving new fish?


Try contacting Elywyn Segrest of Segrest Farms in Tampa. I was down there last year and they have a "red room" to acclimate the fish. It was a little strange being under all the red light, but it was supposed to be more calming to the fish IIRC. They may use other methods as well. They really seemed to be cutting edge. If you ever bought from them it should give you easier access. Or act like you want to buy maybe. I don't know if they add anything to the water or not. Give them a call. Losses = money lost so no one is trying harder to cut loses than the large wholesalers.
Mitch

[jmicky41]

As consumers, the best we can do is to purchase fish from locales that are known not to use cyanide. I always avoid the "generic" emperor angel and pay the premium price for the Christmas Islands one. Same thing for hippo tangs, coral beauties, the list goes on and on. When a fish is cheap, with no locale specified, I always stay away. But for the LFS, there isn't much incentive to purchase from better locales - it makes their store more expensive than the one down the road. I used to work at a LFS in high school and always heard: "$49 for a hippo tang; the guy down the street had them for $39 - he said they were net caught." Yeah, but did you ever see a store that said their fish were cyanide caught.

[dizzy]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=6439617#post6439617 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by jmicky41
But for the LFS, there isn't much incentive to purchase from better locales - it makes their store more expensive than the one down the road. [/B]

micky there is just as much incentive for a lfs to buy healthier, better handled stock as an online store. In fact the competetion online can be more brutal than local retail. The thing is if you don't turn and burn then you need it to live. That's the incentive if you don't sell it right away you need for it to live until you do. Do you see that?
Mitch

[just dave]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=6439617#post6439617 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by jmicky41
Yeah, but did you ever see a store that said their fish were cyanide caught.

The cynic that I've become thinks that saying Net Caught is not the same as saying cyanide free.

[cortez marine]

The yellowheads are caught with quin mixed with isoprophyl alcohol because the collectors in the keys, and Haiti have never learned the simple technique of catching them with trout hooks and 2 1/2 foot underwater fishing poles.
This is how we catch the bluespot jawfish in Baja and can get up to 150 a day.
Steve

[cortez marine]

All the countries of the world producing netcaught fishes as a matter of routine certainly don't need a drug to "keep the fish calm".
Hawaii, Tonga, Australia, Vanuatu, Solomons, Marshalls, Mexico etc. never felt the need to use drugs to produce superior livestock,
Wait a minute...they already do produce superior livestock.
Dope is cost ineffective and stresses the fish too much....which is why it is disdained for professional use.
Steve

[Fred_J]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=6451350#post6451350 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by cortez marine
All the countries of the world producing netcaught fishes as a matter of routine certainly don't need a drug to "keep the fish calm".
Hawaii, Tonga, Australia, Vanuatu, Solomons, Marshalls, Mexico etc. never felt the need to use drugs to produce superior livestock,
Wait a minute...they already do produce superior livestock.
Dope is cost ineffective and stresses the fish too much....which is why it is disdained for professional use.
Steve
Are you saying these are the safe non-cyanide locations. I've been trying to get a list of the "hopefully" non-cyanide using countries for some time.

Thanks
Fred

[Fred_J]

Steven, Very good article. I started keeping marine fish since the early seventies. Your article has taught me a lot about what I thought I already knew. The advice on how to select a WC fish is the oppisite of anything I've read but makes perfect sense.
Thank you for such a timely and well thought out article.
Fred

[cortez marine]

Fred,
Indonesia [ including Bali] and the Philippines represent nearly all the cyanide use for tropical fish in the world.

Go where the Marine Aquarium Council goes in S.E.Asia and you will find a cyanide fishing industry.
They don't train fisherman or solve the problem...but they do camp-follow it and SERVICE the issue.
They use it as a cash cow and derive salary and compensation for it.
Bali and the Philippines are the beast.
The rest are pretty clean....especially the countries already mentioned.
Steve

[cortez marine]

However,
There are clean operations in both countries that should not suffer for the sins of the guilty ones.
Steve

[EricG]

Steven: Thank you for writing this article and bringing attention to the problem of cyanide use in the capture of marine fish. I would like to offer several observations from a medical perspective.

1. Treatment: To treat humans exposed to cyanide we generally use sodium nitrite and sodium thiosulfate. I guessing that sodium nitrite is not a good candidate because we all know about N02 toxicity in marine fish. Sodium Thiosulfate may be a better prospect, as I believe that people already use sodium thiosulfate to detoxify chlorine. One uncertainty in all this is that in medicine, we dose these medications intravenously. I have no idea if the medication would be absorbed directly from the water. Methylene blue may also be a possibility, but it may have more of a theoretical risk of overdose. Again, methylene blue is dosed IV in humans, so I don’t know to what degree it may be absorbed. I’m not sure if we need to detoxify cyanide because I’m not sure how long cyanide remains in the fishes tissue. If all or most of the cyanide has been metabolized or removed by the time it the fish reaches the consumer, there may be no indication for any further detoxification.

It would be very helpful to find out exactly how long it takes for the fish to clear all the cyanide from its body. If the cyanide is rapidly cleared, that is likely good for the fish. On the other hand, if cyanide is still present in the fish’s tissue at the time that it is received by the consumer, then there may be an opportunity to test the fish for cyanide. I have read that there is some testing of fish at the country of origin, but I believe that they test an actual tissue sample. I have been wondering if it is useful to test the water that the fish is shipped in. I know that there are simple and cheap test strips for testing for the level of cyanide in ground water. It would be a great tool for concerned LFS staff to able to test the shipping water for cyanide and then be able to avoid suppliers that are shipping out “juiced� fish. If we can test and know if the fish was exposed to cyanide, then by avoiding those suppliers, we could apply real economic pressure to discourage the further use of cyanide. If they can’t sell the fish, they will stop using cyanide.

2. Long term effects: I have no data at present to support this but my intuitive sense as physician tells me that there are likely negative long term effects. To understand the long-term effects one must understand a bit about how cyanide exerts its toxic effects on cells. Cyanide blocks the major pathway that cells use to generate energy. This results in cell death. It also results in a systemic acidosis within the fish’s tissues. Higher metabolism tissues are most susceptible to damage from this sort of metabolic insult. In humans we usually find that the nervous, cardiac, renal, and gastrointestinal organs suffer the greatest. Some fish receive a lethal dose and die right on the reef, but the fish that survive the initial insult very likely have some degree of vital organ damage. Now take this weakened animal and put through the rigors of shipping and transport it is no wonder that we see such high mortality.

Eric

[cortez marine]

Eric,
Your post echos what I have heard from toxicologists from day one.
Tissue cell and therefore damage resulting in health damage after it percolates out of the system.
"Then bring on the rigors of shipping...."Thanks for your contribution.
Steve
PS. Actually there were a number of bogus pet-shop scientists who minimized its effect on fish health thru out the years of this debate. They would never speak up now though.

[Steven Pro]

Eric,

You bring up some very interesting points. As to the first one, I am somewhat torn. While it could be of great benefit to the industry and hobby to work on finding something to negate the effects of cyanide on fishes, the use of cyanide is so detrimental to the nearby corals that I don't think it would be a wise allocation of time and money.

As to your second point, I believe cyanide does do lasting damage to fishes that are exposed to it. I just wanted to point out in my article that belief does not equate to proof and that the proof is lacking at this point. But again, would it by a good investment of resources to find out if and exactly how cyanide damages a fish that survives the initial exposure?

[BrianPlankis]

Steven,

Good points. There is limited money in this hobby and the amount of resources it would take to do tissue analysis on fish (and the death of control fish) is just too much money that could be spent elsewhere.

Stopping the use of cyanide is the best solution. How to do that...I wish I knew!

Brian

[EricG]

I agree that we should not direct much effort toward post exposure treatment. I think that if we can somehow positively identify cyanide exposed fish and then shun those fish we could really place pressure on the industry to change. I would rather see research efforts directed toward testing rather than treatment.

Eric

[Steven Pro]

There have been people working on testing to determine is fish have been exposed to cyanide, but my undersanding is the results have been inconclusive. They just have not found a reliable test yet.

[BrianPlankis]

Just to add another .02,

I think it is a good start to have individuals that are informed shunning cyanide caught fish. However, I don't know if that will reduce demand enough to change the collector's practices.

This is one of the more information intense hobbies I've ever been involved in and I think getting the beginner hobbyists, LFS owners and wholesalers educated on cyanide AND creating incentives to sell cyanide free fish is the only way the current situation will change without some kind of legislation banning imports from certain regions.

I know when I first started this hobby back in 1999 I had no idea cyanide was used to catch fish. I don't think I discovered this until almost one year into the hobby. Maybe the information is more easily found (Thanks for the article Steven), but how many new hobbyists actually read articles before they go to the LFS and the LFS owner sells them a bunch of cyanide caught fish because there is little incentive for them not to?

While hobbyist clubs can work on promoting cyanide free fish to new members, to hopefully reduce the number of novice hobbyists being uninformed on the subject, I feel it comes down to creating incentives and educating the supply chain to get the end result we all want.

Brian

[cortez marine]

This issue has become a business all its own.
Its far cheaper to simply train divers with a fraction of the money allocated to deal with the problem.
However....the leadership in every group involved so far...[ 20 years!] spends the budgets to largely no acclaim and chooses to keep the focus on remedies and notions that frontload their perks, their involvement, their salaries, their inexperienced theories and their office bound remedies.
We choose to not solve this thing and always have.
Steve
Having trained 600 cyanide collectors before a stop was put to it by the NGO's I worked for in the early 80's and up to the early 90's...I know something of it.
Steve

[davidh202]

Hi Steven
I think the most important point you made was that it's really up to us to do our research! A little bit of knowledge goes a long way to avoiding a lot of mistakes and even then it's not always enough. It seems to me that everyone has a different opinion about everything. The controversies start off with "sand" and it doesn't end there. A lot of it is strickly based on personal experience. One person says this fish is "reef safe", another disagrees. It can get to be very confusing not to mention all the other worrys about how the fish was collected, traveled and cared for by the time it makes its way into your local fish store!
I just wish you hadn't suggested that it's possible to put a deposit on a fish and have the store hold it for a week or so. (You're not the first to say this) We have about a half dozen or so stores within our area and their main goal is to sell the fish ASAP! (in other words, before it dies on them!) Bad retail stores, unscrupulous dealers, well, I think you were overly nice in your article! And the problems are not just limited to fish. It seems that when in doubt about the specific species of Coral, just give it a common name or add "sp"! Gorgonia sp., am I the only one who finds this practice annoying? I can't understand those individuals who don't take the time to read up or do their homework. But more importantly, I don't understand a business that is only interested in selling something for the sake of selling something! Kim