Mandarinfish [Archive] - Reef Central Online Community Archives

surfnvb7

12/31/2005, 10:14 PM

uhhhhh...mandarins are NOT for small tanks, PERIOD. 40-50g minimum, tank that has been established for almost a year with a heavy pod population and no other fish that also eat pods for their diet exclusively.

with that said, i know some noob is gonna say "not true, i've kept a mandarin in my nanocube for a month that eats frozen foods..."

don't be an irresponsible reefer and kill a poor fish that was taken from its natural habitat in the ocean just for your enjoyment and lack of judgement...

sorry if this sounds harsh, it isn't meant to you personally, i've just seen it happen too many times and its really really sad how fast people kill this fish.

Kogo

12/31/2005, 11:47 PM

the key to success with mandarines is definatly to have lots of pods regardless of tank size.
it would be usefull to have a fuge. you might also take sand and macro samples from as many other fuges as possible for maximum diversity.

drumnut409

01/01/2006, 02:03 AM

hmm....

I was told by an "expert" (who knows?) that they can be held in small tanks because they (and I qoute) dont swim much. They are kept in a small tank at the store (less than 20 gal), so I didn't think size as a problem. Also, in Scott W. Michael's book (a moderator), Marine Fishes, he states that Mandarins only need 20 gallons. I will do some more research.

I appreciate your concerns surfnvb7, as I share them with you. I used to work at a fish store, but I was let go/quit and we never kept Mandarins. Also, (I'm going to feel VERY stupid for saying this, maybe its because its 12:00am) what are pods? I think they are the small shrimp that are in the sand and emerge at night. I have plenty of them (might not be good). Excuse my misknowlege (who knows if thats a word, but you get my point).

Thanks,
Ben

surfnvb7

01/01/2006, 02:10 AM

I was told by an "expert" (who knows?) that they can be held in small tanks because they (and I qoute) dont swim much

now that sounds exactly like it came from an owner/manager of a LFS for sure! :rolleyes:

our LFS keeps tangs in 20g tanks.....so if you keep that in mind, just b/c you see it in a small tank in the store doesn't mean its ok to keep it in your small tank long term.

bottom line is, everyone is gonna tell you something different... i suppose an EXPERT who has had 10years experience in the hobby and with mandarin fish, could train one to feed off of frozen foods, or if you made your own live brine shrimp and fed it to the mandarin 2 times a day you could keep one in a small tank...but it still doesn't mean you should do it

its kinda the same thing with tangs, yes...you can keep one alive in a small tank, but is it right??

yeah, pods (amphipods, coepods) are those little things that live in the sand/rock and come out at night. but a mandarin will quickly deplete all in a 20g tank in a matter of days to weeks. and they dont reproduce as fast as the mandarin can eat...which will cause it to starve to death.

bigbenji

01/01/2006, 02:28 AM

I read that you can seed a refugium, along with making a pile of live rock rubble in the tank specifically to give pods a place where the mandarin can't get to them. Supposedly, you can pile live rock rubble in a corner behind other live rock and the spaces will be too small for the mandarin to get to, so the pods will reproduce there and only the spillover will become food. I haven't tried this yet, but it sounds good.

Has anyone tried the aquapods product (bottled live copepods)? I was thinking of trying to seed my tank with that. Its available at seacrop.com.

surfnvb7

01/01/2006, 03:12 AM

the aquapods product is a joke. a LFS near me ordered one as a joke just to see how bad it was. when i looked at it, it looked like just a clear bottle to me with some macro algae in it. if you buy a colony of zoas or mushrooms that is 2"x2" i think you'll get more pods from that one rock.

the hands down best way, is get someone (or the LFS) to give you a handful of macro algae from their fuge. take the clump and shake it out over the rocks in your tank and then put it in your fuge. in a new tank, they will quickly reproduce like crazy, and it will seem like you have millions. but they will quickly deplenish their food supply in order to keep alive numbers that high, and a large percentage will die off and then stabalize at a number in which they will not deplenish their food supply.

i'm glad someone mentioned the thing about creating a "pod sanctuary" i've been itchin to try this also. you can take a small basket and place it upside down, or plastic mesh. only thing is in order to do it "right" you really need alot of room to cover it up (i.e. bigger tank).

louist

01/01/2006, 08:09 AM

The stuff the LFS tells you should have almost no bearings on your judgements. I was thinking about a mandarin, and of all the LFS's I visited, only 1 shop had them healthy looking. Every other shop's mandarin look like they are bulimic.

Sure one can say "well if I don't buy him, he's going to starve to death at the shop or purchased by some other fool", but at least you will not be part of the statistics. It's heartbreaking knowing that this awesome fish has the highest mortality rate of any marine fish in the trade, and most died a slow starvation.

Cutiewitbooty

01/01/2006, 10:46 AM

I have kept a mandarin in a 46 gal FOWLR, but he was eating mysis and brine. I had to feed him a few times a day to keep up with his hunger :D I really don't think that one could be kept in a small tank. First off normally they don't eat frozen food, so it would slowly starve to death in anyting smaller then a 75 that is established, Second even if it was eating mysis and brine, the amount of food you have to dump in there to keep it happy would quickly foul up the tank. If I remember right, I would have to feed my mandarin 2 frozen cubes of mysis a day ( spread out throughout the day) with a turkey baster and he would only catch about 10% of it. If I didn't put that much food in the tank he would starve.

DrBDC

01/01/2006, 11:15 AM

I've always followed the rule of 75 lbs of well established rock per dragonette. Some exceptions can be a sump/refuge bigger than the display. But one that eats frozen cyclopeeze could def. change that rule but I don't think it can be pushed so far as a 20.

fishman805

01/01/2006, 12:28 PM

Ben....

I would definately listen to the folks telling you "NOT" to purchase a mandarin ( dragonet ) goby for such a small tank... Also be on the lookout for "scooter blennies" as these are also of the dragonet family and feed "almost" exclusively on copapods as well... Most if not all of the specimens you'll see in the LFSs will be relatively new arrivals and still may be under stress from the trip to their new temporary home...

Another thing that many of us do is "think" that we are rescuing the poor emaciated looking fish and that it would recover and will do better in our tanks ( I'm guilty of doing that )... Most of the time all that we accomplish is stress the fish even more and it still dies.... I've got one male scooter blennie in my 150gal tank that's been setup now for 11 months... This fella has grown tremendously in that time and is now almost 5" long and very healthy..... I've got a fuge running under my tank and I've got a ton of pods living and reproducing in there... I've also got almost 300 lbs of LR in the tank and another 20 lbs in the fuge.... I'm in the process of getting a "mate" for my scooter and if I do, they will be the "only" two dragonets in the tank....

Hope this advice helps.... We must always be responsable reefkeepers 1st and formost and just not collectors of pretty fish...

Bob

Paul B

01/01/2006, 01:17 PM

Ben, actually Amber is correct. I know dealers keep mandarin's in small tanks, they also keep them in two gallon cubicals but the dealer does not have to keep it for long. I do not think you should put one in a small tank. If an "expert" told you that, he is wrong. I have been keeping them as long as any expert and I know many of the experts. You could do it but the nature of a mandarin's feeding is that they pick at copepods all day, they like to eat one every 10 seconds or so as you can watch them do. I doubt you could feed a mandarin once or twice a day like other fish with any long term success. They don't have that type of a stomach where they could store food. A mandarin should live about 8-10 years. they are the easiest no maintenance fish to
keep but you have to let them find their own food on their own which has to be available for them.
Sorry.
Paul

http://reefcentral.com/gallery/data/500/13094Copy_of_Gorgonians1_005.jpg

drumnut409

01/01/2006, 03:23 PM

Thank you for all the helpful insight. I think I will go to something different, like a Dottyback, etc. If there’s anything else, let me know!

Ben

Oh... one more thing. Do you guys have any suggestion for fish/corals to put with what I have (that are easy to keep). I have had a problem keeping true percs, as I have had three die. I have now stopped purchasing them b/c I am sick of waking up and seeing my crab munching on a beautiful (not to mention expensive) appetizer. All three times I have had my water tested by the LFS and by me. I give up... So any way, any other suggestions would be appreciable.

Thanks!

~Ben

reefwick

01/01/2006, 04:36 PM

Something else is very wrong if you can't keep clowns alive. They are one of the hardiest fish around so you'll need to look into your water quality and such much closer.

drumnut409

01/01/2006, 07:05 PM

I guess it could be where I'm getting them from... right?

~Ben

surfnvb7

01/01/2006, 07:08 PM

i think you should post the specs of your tank, all the levels of NH3, NO2, NH3, pH, salinity, Ca, alkalinity, how often you do water changes, how many fish you have and for how long, every little detail

if you dont have test kits for these things you need to get them.

nodbugger

01/01/2006, 07:19 PM

I have mine in a 29 gallon. It eats flake and pellet food. I got lucky.

Mine is one of the smaller spotted Mandarin.

louist

01/01/2006, 09:00 PM

I have mine in a 29 gallon. It eats flake and pellet food. I got lucky.
Yes, there are cases like those, I believe melev has a mandarin that he made a "dine-out" for so that other fish can not steal her pellets.

fishman805

01/01/2006, 10:43 PM

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=6401185#post6401185 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by louist
Yes, there are cases like those, I believe melev has a mandarin that he made a "dine-out" for so that other fish can not steal her pellets.

Although there are cases where people have had mandarins eat prepared foods, it's the acception and not the rule...I believe Marcs was already eating prepared foods ... Anyway, the thread starter has decided not to go with a mandarin...

Bob

spline9

01/02/2006, 06:12 AM

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=6396745#post6396745 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by surfnvb7
the aquapods product is a joke. a LFS near me ordered one as a joke just to see how bad it was. when i looked at it, it looked like just a clear bottle to me with some macro algae in it.
This is just for the record;
Your LFS mustve gotten a dead bottle. I am a part of a reef club that includes an employee of seacrop. We have had raffle prizes that included bottles of Aquapods which did indeed have live copepods (and a bit of chaeto) in them.
Seapods was a similar product and a RC sponsor.
http://archive.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=581683

fishman805

01/02/2006, 10:16 AM

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=6403714#post6403714 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by spline9
This is just for the record;
Your LFS mustve gotten a dead bottle. I am a part of a reef club that includes an employee of seacrop. We have had raffle prizes that included bottles of Aquapods which did indeed have live copepods (and a bit of chaeto) in them.
Seapods was a similar product and a RC sponsor.
http://archive.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=581683

And also just for the record.... There are many reefers that use this product in their own tanks ( and fuges ) to give a pod boost to the system or just to seed a new fuge.... I also believe you recieved a bad batch and I'm sure the company would make it right if that were the case....:)

fishman805

01/02/2006, 10:16 AM

surfnvb7

01/02/2006, 02:51 PM

i think it might have been seapods...but still.....i think its still cheaper/makes more sense to just get some live rock/rubble/macro algae from a local reefer or LFS instead of buying something that has a very very short shelf life.

whats next, bristle worms and small sea stars in a bottle? :lol:

JMO :)

drumnut409

01/02/2006, 10:40 PM

hmmm

Here are my specs:

pH-8.1 (I am in the processs of raising it to 8.2)
KH-10
Ca-420
NO3-5 (trying to lower)
NO2-0
Salinity-1.023

I do a 5 gal water change routinely every 2 weeks.

I am using B-Ionic to maintain pH (When Low, I add Marine Buffer) and Ca. Also, I use Vitachem when I feed flake (Formula 1 [Reef]), which is about everyother day. I am testing every day for pH and Ca, and the others every other day.

Stock:

Hairy Mushroom
Pulsating Zenia
Assorted Zoas
Mushrooms (I couldn't tell you the name if my life depended on it. I put a pic below.)
Green Chromis (1)
Yellow Tailed Damsel (1)
Fire Shrimp (1)
Turbos (2)
Emerald Crab (1)

Unknown Mushroom:
http://reefcentral.com/gallery/data/500/103157Small_shrom.jpg

Thanks,
Ben

surfnvb7

01/02/2006, 10:51 PM

your pH was a typo right? you said 3.1, i think you meant 8.1??

hmm, how old is this tank?

try feeding a frozen food, like 2 times a week. flake might not be enough nutrition alone for the clowns. and every other day, may be causing your nitrates to go up.

you shouldn't be needing to add all of those chemicals either. all you really should be adding is something for calcium and something for alkalinity. you definatley dont have a calcium demand though.

a pH from 7.9-8.3 is fine, you dont need to adjust it. mine is about 7.9 at night and 8.3 during the day, its not really a big deal.

drumnut409

01/02/2006, 11:20 PM

oh god yes it was a typo!
its about 6 months old. do you know that mushrooom?

Ben

surfnvb7

01/02/2006, 11:23 PM

the pic is kinda blurry, but judging by the bumps on the mouth in the center, it could be a ricordia yuma

drumnut409

01/02/2006, 11:24 PM

oh...
what is your suggestion for a KH additive?

Ben

drumnut409

01/02/2006, 11:27 PM

I googled that, and I talked to my old boss at Pure ocean aquatics, and she didnt think it was a ricordia yuma, I already tried that, but oh well... who cares! It is really cool!

Ben

sorry about the pic, im not too good at the whole picture thing... i have a meidiocure camera for shooting through glass

surfnvb7

01/02/2006, 11:33 PM

well, dripping/dosing kalk mixed up in your RO/DI topoff water is one option, but you only really need to bother with that if you have a heavy sps tank, or just a large tank in general.

i've heard seachem's reefbuilder is a good product.

but since the active ingredient you really need to increase alkalinity is bicarbonate..........i just use straight off the grocery store shelf baking soda b/c i'm a poor graduate student.

try posting the mushroom question in the mushroom forum.

fishman805

01/03/2006, 03:13 PM

Normal water changes should keep your calcium levels in check.... You do not have a large enough load in that tank to have to be adding calcium suppliments in my opinion.... Your picture is a green mushroom ( poss. a green hairy mushroom ) and I've got lots of them in my tanks... Yours will divide and break off and you'll see new ones pop up in different places in your tank soon enough... I pulled a piece of LR from my 150gal ( to put in my 12gal NC ) loaded with shrooms and found three or four of them show up in my 150gal...

The chemical perameters you list are quite good and may even stabalize more as time goes on... 5 ppm for trates is not bad at all and should not cause you any problems especially with the fish ( they can tolerate much higher trate levels )....

Unless you start adding alot of SPS's to your tank, water changes are all you should need to maintain good alk. and calcium levels. I've had my 12gal nano cube setup up for less time than your 29 and I've got gorgeous coraline growth and all my corals are doing great.... All I do is a 10% weekly water change....

Bob

DesertBandits

01/03/2006, 11:22 PM

I have kept a mandarin in my 30gal for over a year. To do it sucessfully you have to get a mandarin that will eat frozen foods. Any pod population in a nano will go extinct with the addition of a mandarin, as well as those little featherdusters you get on rocks. Also be prepared for the fact that manderins eat super slow and are absolutely shy feeders. What does this mean? Well, once a day I have to blast my tank with tons of dry food to fill my other fish's tummies, then blast the tank with frozen food just so the manderin has a chance to eat. Also, you have to get a Manderin no more than 1.25 in long, a large fish will likely starve without a big refugium for growing pods. For a compatability chart check liveaquaria.com, theirs is right on the mark. My manderin lives happily with 2 perculas, a cherub angel, and a green chromis. Some of the species to definately avoid with a manderin are damsels, grammas, and wrasses. All in all, unless you are seriously in love with manderins don't go for it. If you still wan't one be prepared for all the things ive told you about.

The Marmot

01/04/2006, 12:17 AM

OK, I admit, I stopped reading this post about 7-8 posts in, so I apologize if its already been said.

DO NOT LISTEN TO ANYBODY AND I MEAN ANYBODY, INCLUDING YOU'RE MOTHER, THAT TELLS YOU ANYTHING DIFFERENT THAN, NO!

Someone said something like sure it might be possible if...many variables...are met, but it doesnt' mean you SHOULD. This is a good point, but only scratch's the surface of the issue. And, as bad as I want to, I'm not going to go too deep into it. I killed one of those fish, after doing research like this and being told it could work. It can't work, period. There is no way that the pod population can sustain itself to meet the dietary demands of a mandarin, in a tank under 50 gallons. No matter the rock amount, no matter the sand. Propegating pods in a seperate tank and or transplanting rubble, macro, etc..into your fuge to "diversify" the population, will only add to the length of starvation torture you would be putting this fish through. All these things are actually, absolutely necessary even in tanks upwards of 100 gallons. As far as "just get one that eats frozen foods...", ROFL...sorry, how are you supposed to know if it's going to eat frozen foods?, ask it?...'cause thats what it eats at the store? Whatever....the things been ripped out of its home put in a warehouse on a dock, then into a plastic bag, and shipped for however long, dumped into your LFS's nasty water, and not offered food until that point! My god, I think I might eat wood at that point if it happened to me!!! That doesn't mean it will continue to eat frozen food, once it's settled into you're tank. Even if it does, it is NOT getting the nutrition it NEEDS! Mandarin also wander constantly so, whoever said that they don't move to much, was certainly not an "expert". Move and eat; that, is all I've ever seen these fish do.
A freind of mine who is an RC member has had good luck with a Midas Blenny, I think. It's a very social and pretty fish, that seems to be fine in a 29 gallon reef, and plays in the rocks similar to a mandarin, and is reef safe, look into one of those perhaps. It's not a Mandarin, but, well... It'll live.

DesertBandits

01/04/2006, 01:19 PM

A mandarin doesn't need pods. Frozen foods with high enough fat enough fat content (selecon) will provide enough nutrition for the mandarin to flourish. Lets be rational, in our discussion and not resort to emotional dogma that doesn't teach anyone anything. And another thing, you've never watched or asked to see a fish eat certain foods at your lfs? Come on...

surfnvb7

01/04/2006, 01:32 PM

uhhh, sorry, but mandarin fish DO need pods. only some can be weaned on to prepared foods (more likely with smaller/younger ones), and yes....it is becoming more common now-a-days, but most are still wild caught and will not eat any kind of prepared foods.

i'd say only about 1 in 10 at my LFS show an interest in prepared foods other than live brine shrimp.

saying a mandarin fish doesn't need pods is one of the most ridiculous responses i have ever heard.

DesertBandits

01/04/2006, 02:00 PM

You misunderstand me. I posted in the context of my post above. I was talking about Mandarins that will eat frozen foods and not spit them out. You're right it seems this may be a small group. but if you can watch a Manderin to eat them at the lfs you can do it at home. Give the fish live brine to make sure it keys in on the organisms, and you will be able to get it to eat the frozen foods at home too. My comment was that dietarily, frozen food with selecon is enough nutrition for the fish. Of course you have to make sure the fish eat it.

surfnvb7

01/04/2006, 02:31 PM

ok, well said. ;) you got another PM

fishman805

01/04/2006, 03:16 PM

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=6420785#post6420785 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by DesertBandits
A mandarin doesn't need pods. Frozen foods with high enough fat enough fat content (selecon) will provide enough nutrition for the mandarin to flourish. Lets be rational, in our discussion and not resort to emotional dogma that doesn't teach anyone anything. And another thing, you've never watched or asked to see a fish eat certain foods at your lfs? Come on...

:lol: ( Sorry )

One thing that was mentioned above is that mandarins are "constant" eaters.... If the fish does key in on the brine shrimp, it may only get a few of them... After that it will still be on the hunt for more food... My scooter blennie will also grab and gulp frozen brine and mysis shrimp but then continues to feed in the LR "all day long " But in order to satisfy the mandarins hunger, you'd have to give a steady supply of shrimp all day long...

Bob

Bob

Ronald

01/04/2006, 03:26 PM

I realize you have decided wisely not to put a manderin in your nano. This post is for anybody who may be confused.

My 72g 2 year old tank with 50g of refugia had a manderin that lived for 3 years before he slowly starved to death. I had 3 refugia and the fish appeared to take frozen decopods (cyclopeze). I was sad to see him go he was a beautiful fish, but I will not purchase another and certainly would not put one in a tank smaller than 150g. Remember, the aquatic aquarium environment is fragile and the copapods/amphipods are in a fragile equilibrium. Even if you have what appear to be many, a consistant negative pressure like a manderin can drive them to extinction. You can purchase live copapods and feed them, that may offset the negative pressure but only in a large tank.

I would add that a manderin taking frozen/dry food doesn't mean he is digesting it or using it effectively, it may just be slowing his starvation. If you were starving to death in a cage and your keeper gave you tree bark to eat you would eat it, but you would eventually die of starvation anyway. If you doubt this ask the experts in Reef Central-Calfo, Bourneman etc... They will say the same thing

Ron :fish2:

reefwick

01/04/2006, 04:33 PM

It would be nice to but there are no longer any "experts" here on RC, they have all left for various reasons.

drumnut409

01/04/2006, 05:37 PM

hmmm...
after reading all of your positive and negative feedback (I appreciate both), I did more research and I talked to a few more LFS's via phone. I have decided that most likely (90% sure) I will chose something different. I am thinking about a scooter blenny. I think that will do well.

Like I said, thanks again!

-Ben

The Marmot

01/04/2006, 06:09 PM

Scooter Blenny should be fine, down to about 20 gallons maybe. Personally, I like the Midas Blenny, but either way I'm glad your exploring other options.

surfnvb7

01/04/2006, 06:13 PM

i think its time to end this discussion......enough opinions have been expressed in this particular thread. :rolleyes:

reefwick

01/04/2006, 06:13 PM

Careful what LFS tell you.

fishman805

01/04/2006, 07:25 PM

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=6423106#post6423106 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by The Marmot
Scooter Blenny should be fine, down to about 20 gallons maybe. Personally, I like the Midas Blenny, but either way I'm glad your exploring other options.

Scooter blennies are dragonets just like the manderin goby... I stated this in my very first posting in this thread... It will not be a good choice for a tank of that size.... They require the exact same pod population to survive and thrive.... With a little more research, you will also find that the six-line wrasse is also a pod eater and will quickly eat up all pods in a tank of that size... The up side to having one of them, though, is that they will readily eat other prepared foods in addition to pods and tube worms etc...

I'm sorry to beat a dead horse ( as some will assume I am )but I don't want to see you purchase a fish that you will not enjoy for very long... Many of the fish that we'd love to keep in our tanks have special needs and requirments to thrive and survive... Research is key to success in this hobby.... How many "Nemo" and "Dori" fish have been lost due to irresponsability or forthought into the needs of those beautiful fish...??

Please don't take offense ... I've been in this hobby for over 35 years and I can't tell you how many times I've seen folks buy something just because it looked pretty without any regard to it's survival. Case in point: ": OOOhh it's a Nemo fish.. I'll take that one.......:rollface: " I actually had a woman at work ask me how hard it was to setup a SW tank because her 3 year old wanted a Nemo fish really really bad.... ( she dropped the idea after I told her all that was needed... lol )

Bob