angel's nervous twitch

[murphd3]

Hello all,

Wondering if anyone can help me identify/treat a problem with a 1 1/2" singapore angel I brought home last night. He looked perfectly healthy @ the store yesterday. I put him in a 30 Q-tank last night. Today, he appears to have a twitch about 1/sec. Otherwise, he acts fine- swimming, eating, and breathing seem to be normal. Any suggestions would be very helpful. I am relatively new to the hobby, and hope I'm not in over my head. I understand these fish can be difficult to keep with the major problem being getting them to feed. At least I don't think that will be a problem.

Thanks, Murphy

[Biosystems]

HEy murphd3:

What are your tank parameters/how old is your tank and what is the setup? It will help with the diagnosis.

Tim

[FMarini]

Hi:
I would also like a little more information. Is the animal also scratching?, any other symptoms? does he do this regularly, or just once in a while. Do you notice any visible lesions, parasites, colored spots, etc?
thanks
frank




Biosystems- I see your a molecular biologist/virologist. what virus?(es). I also have the same degree, and same field of specialization, except now I strickly using the viruses for gene delivery into humans

[murphd3]

The fish shows no other signs of distress and has no unusual spots/coloration that I can see. Ammonia-0, nitrite-0, nitrate-10ppm, alk~1.5, ph~8.3, temp-77F, and a very healthy royal gramma tankmate. The tank is about 2 months old and is equipped with a bio-wheel pro 60 and two lg sponge filters. A 1/2" layer of crushed coral on bottom and multiple pieces of dead coral for security. The angel is accepting frozen brine, formula 2, and live caluerpa. Please let me know what I can do to help this fish as well as things I can provide for him in the future.

Thanks,
Murphy

FMarini- The twitch is pretty regular and occurs about once a second.

[murphd3]

I have recently seen the angel scratch, but still no visible marks. I only saw him do it one time and otherwise he is still behaving the same. If you have any idea what I could try as a treatment, please let me know.

Thanks,
Murphy

[Biosystems]

Murphy:

I must admit that I am stumped without any more information. I first suspected water conditions and that this was a relatively new tank and that is why I asked for the information-as water parameters can cause the twitch that you describe. While I was right about the new tank-your parameters are not those that would cause the twitch.

I realize however that chemical problems are greater than those you listed-try activated carbon and increase air release into the tank. THis will help with any possible chemical problem/toxin that can cause this. Have you had your house sprayed for bugs, painted, or cleaned your glass with windex?

Another possible problem that results in twitching is neurological that can be corrected with adequate diet especially with supplements of vitamins and appropriate FA. Soak your foods for some time in Vitachem and Selcon and this will help with the overall health as well as combating possible other infections. I just do not know if it will help in this case but it should be a regular part of your feeding routine anyway and will definitely help and not hurt.

One thing that should be noted about angels. They require very good water conditions to flourish. From your writing I can not tell if this is your Q tank or your main tank, but angels do much better in reef tanks or tanks with live rock where they can pick at food on a constant basis. They also do much better in well established tanks-possibly because of the stability of water conditions as well as the increased growth on the rock that supplements the nutritional value of the food that you provide.

There are a number of infections that do not have any outwardly observable phenotype as they infect internal organs. Many of these are only visible once they progress to a point where treatment is not effective. Since the fish is eating you can try some of the medicated flakes available, there should be one with a good bactericide available, but I would have to go look through some catalogs to see what is readily available to consumers. Also if it is an internal parasite this will do nothing except prevent secondary infections. I have always advocated deworming/deparasitizing fish when purchased (you do so with any mammal so why not a fish?) But I do not know if the reagents needed for doing so are readily available without a prescription.

Keep a look out for any developments and post here/email a member on the board (including myself). I am still digging through literature trying to find anything with twitching other than those that are readily observable or chemical.

Best regards,
Tim

[Biosystems]

Frank I opened a new thread to respond so I wouldnt get Murphy seeing responses between the two of us. IT has your name on it in this section.

Tim

[Terry B]

I am afraid that twitching can be caused by many things. It may be that you used saltwater that was not well aged and aerated prior to making a water change. This is very irritating to the delicate gill tissues. An internal fungus can cause twitching but there isn't any effective treatment.
Twitching often indicates some sort of parasite. If the twitching goes on for a couple of weeks without any visible spots I would suspect gill flukes. Fish often have gill flukes that can cause them to twitch and scratch sometimes.You can try keeping the angel in hyposaline water. This seems to help with several types of parasites, especially ich. The specific gravity should be kept at 1.009 if it is ich. If dropping the salinity way down does not work then I would try a dip using formaldehyde. Despite all the possible causes you can only treat for some of them so you just have to do your best. Formaldehyde should only be used in a dip with strong aeration. 20 drops or 1cc per gallon of water (use tankwater). Without a positive identification you can only treat for the possiblities starting with the most likely cause. Be very aware of any new symptoms or changes in behavior. If you drop the salinity check your pH and alkalinity everyday.
HTH,
Terry B

[murphd3]

Thanks Tim and Terry

Tim- I will try carbon immediately- can't hurt, right? There have been no chemicals/sprays used in the vicinity of the Q tank which the fish is in, although there is a significant amount of tobacco smoke in the room. He doesn't seem to like flakes much, so I don't know if the medicated ones will work. What exactly are the reagents you speak of to deworm/deparasitize new fish? I might just be able to get them.

Terry- I was told by my father that he suspected gill flukes when I told him about the problem. How stressfull is a formalin dip on an angel? Should I go ahead and dip the royal gramma(the only tankmate) at the same time if I decide to do this? After the dip, will placing the fish back in the same water cause a reinfestation? This would be my first time to treat this way.

Thanks again,
Murphy

[murphd3]

Just checking to see about those deworming/deparasitizing treatments. The angel has not become worse YET, but would still like to know something about the formalin dip in case it is used. If you can help, please respond.

Thanks

[Terry B]

murphd3
I would try the least intrusive approach first. If a large water change doesn't work, then try moving the fish to a seperate aquarium and use hyposalinity. If that doesn't help then send me an email and I will send you an article I wrote about using formalin. Using a chemical to treat for internal worms is more risky and stressful to the fish IMO. Most all fish have some internal worms and they don't become a problem unless the fish is immuno-compromised.
Best wishes,
Terry B

[Biosystems]

murphd3:

Sorry for the delay answering. I am having computer problems. I don't know if I will be able to respond here for a few days so if you need any more info from me-please email me-I can respond through there quickly.

Gill flukes may be the cause of the twitching, but infection normally includes scratching behavior. In later stages, you also see increased respiration as the infection of gill tissue causes increased mucous secretion. Hopefully if this is the cause you are really early in its diagnosis thanks to Terry. Since I have reread your post and see that you have started to observe scratching, it may be progressing and seems a proper diagnosis. In general, flukes physically anchor themselves into the tissue of fish and reproduce through either depositing eggs within the tissue that hatch into free-swimming larvae, or they give live birth to young. Either way they can spread rather rapidly on the infected host and cause a great deal of damage b/c they tend to move around and not stay anchored in one spot. Furthermore, they can populate your substrate so you must treat your tank as well. The most effective documented treatment for this is organophosphate compounds such as Fenthion, Trichlorfon, or Dimethyl Phosphonate. If you need info on these compounds are their use send an email. Several good water changes over the course of a few days will also help with infestations and may be a good alternative to the previous compounds.

I have to agree with Terry-try the most noninvasive method first, but be ready to quickly use other methods should the symptoms progress. I personally hate formalin baths as I have had fish go blind during treatment-sometimes they recovered-other times they didn't. So I use this treatment with caution-especially since I believe that is counterproductive to use a chemical that destroys gill tissue to treat a parasite that is causing gill tissue damage. Freshwater baths are very effective against flukes so this would be my first option-just be sure that your FW bath's pH and temperature is equivalent with that of your tank. You may have to use several treatments over the course to rid the fish of reinfesting parasites.



As far as the other info you are asking for:

For info on formalin treatments try this website:

http://edis.ifas.ufl.edu/BODY_VM061

For info on baths and dips:

http://edis.ifas.ufl.edu/BODY_VM037

Their site is up and down so you may have to try a couple of times.

IME, for treatment of internal parasites you can use metronidazole mixed in with your food treatments so that you will not have to stress your fish with injections. Also paziquantel or piperazine mixed with food is a good deworming treatment. Both of the last two will probably have to be obtained from a vet or a veterinary pharmacy. While it is true that most internal parasites do not cause problems in immunocompetent hosts/fish-the extent to which these parasites cause problems is not known, simply because their effects are rarely if ever diagnosed. In aquaculture-if you can't see it you will sacrifice a few fish to diagnose it-in the case of pets-you would not normally do this. These treatments are non-invasive and in general not stressful. As with any medication-it should be used with caution and only by the manufacturers directions.



HTH,
Tim

[murphd3]

WOW!!

Let me see.... where did I put those organic chem. books? Great info. - thanks alot.

Murphy