Flame Wrasse (Cirrhilabrus jordani)

[dendronepthya]

I am thinking of adding a male/female pair of Flame Wrasses to my Hawaiian/Pacific reef. I can't find any exclusive information about them since they are often lumped together with other wrasses of the same genus. They are not listed in Scott Michael's pocket reference or Reef Fishes vol. 1.

My question is, how reef safe are they in terms of bothering coral and large inverts such as cleaner shrimp and brittle starfish? Also, will they do well in a high light environment? I have extremely bright lights on my tank, and if they are at all sensitive about that sort of thing, there may be problems. Lastly, does anyone have a picture of a female? Thanks.

[acrophoria]

i have a few fairys in my 175 and,solar,lineatus,velvet,and a flasher,all get along great ifeed couple 3 times a day,i havve an aqua space light,3 250s,fish always in top water column in view,not interested in shrimps or corals,mostly sps,never in sand bed,at night they will all sleep in a "cacoon"of slime in the rocks,still havent read anything on this yet,my favorite store has the jordans wrasse with mixed wrasses and 4 400s,I recomend all fairys,you might want to make a top they like to jump,(eggcrate)good luck whatever you choose these are deffinatly my favorite fish
Jeff:)

[dendronepthya]

acrophoria,
Thanks. That was helpful info. I was mainly worried about the light situation. I had seen a few at a LFS under about 440W of VHO, but when I went to Hawaii and took a look at their aquarium at Waikiki, they had them housed in a deep low-light reef setup with ventralis anthias.

You and I have the same lighting setup. Bright huh?

[hammera]

YES!!!these fish are great had a male for about 3yrs no problems ever. Blood worms were his food of choice but still not a picky eater .As far as corals and such never touched anything except a blue leg crab erery once in a while .Had him under very bright lighting no problems.Females are a little more drab but pretty much same color pattern. Hope this helps

[hammera]

YES!!!these fish are great had a male for about 3yrs no problems ever. Blood worms were his food of choice but still not a picky eater .As far as corals and such never touched anything except a blue leg crab every once in a while .Had him under very bright lighting no problems.Females are a little more drab but pretty much same color pattern. Hope this helps

[hcs3]

hey dendro

My question is, how reef safe are they in terms of bothering coral and large inverts such as cleaner shrimp and brittle starfish?

coral are fine, starfish are fine. shrimp might have a problem. if the shrimp are already in the the tank you shouldn't have a problem. however, if you try to add shrimp after your wrasse is nicely acclimated, you may find out he likes the taste of them :( mine loved peppermint shrimp in particular.

Also, will they do well in a high light environment?

bright lights are fine, but a covered tank is a must.

sorry, no pics

HTH

henry

[cal3v]

I have a redfin in my 55g reef with no problems. He does mess with the nassarious sometimes, but nothing damaging happens to the snails. I also agree with henry in that I have a cleaner shrimp in the tank wiht him, but the shrimp was in there before the wrasse.

[dendronepthya]

Yesterday, I picked up a red flasher wrasse. I could not find a place near here that had a flame wrasse. So far, it has not come out of the rocks, and I have not seen it this morning. The last two fish I have added, this wrasse, and a bicolor blenny have both taken a dive into the rocks never to be seen again. It is quite frustrating.

My friend jokingly told me that I won't see them for a month, unless I add some more fish at which point they will both re-emerge to attack the new additions.

I think it has more to do with the fact that I have a 6" achilles tang in the tank, and the other fish feel intimidated by it.

[hcs3]

hey dendro

i think you hit it on the head. those achilles, though beautiful, are really mean.

flasher wrasses require peaceful tanks. much more so than fairy wrasses. i hope yours makes it, they are beautiful fish.

HTH

henry

[cal3v]

Do faries flash sometimes? Mine does it once in a while when he sees his reflection in the glass. Today, WOW. He flashed amazingly, orange behind the head, some on the body, black throat, amazing. I just wish I took a pic of it.:eek1:

[Gary Majchrzak]

cal3v: Almost all wrasse species I have kept "flash". Dendro -There was an issue of'Freshwater And Marine Aquarium' magazine, many years ago, that featured the Flame wrasse on the cover AND had an article on them.{A rare combo!}I loaned it to a LFS and they keep it on a coffee table next to a spectacular reef that is home to one of these MAGNIFICENT fishes!I will find out the date of it's publication and get back to you...BTW - the reef tank I'm referring to has fairly intense PC lighting...AND ...a closed top!The FAMA aforementioned was published in '88 or '89 I believe...

[cal3v]

Argh, that's the problem with those darn common names. You got a bunch of names for a family of fish, or even a species.

[Gary Majchrzak]

I agree cal3v! I'm usually here late at night impressing myself with recalling the scientific nomenclature! Of course, if I'm not sure, I check the spelling as well! Flasher and fairy-the common names confused me in this post -not the scientific names! THAT'S SCARY! ;)

[cal3v]

lol. Oh man. I can memorize scientific names for fish almost like that, but I can sometimes barely get by on a 30 word vocab test in english!

[dendronepthya]

Here's an update on the new wrasse addition:
He's swimming out in the open and is actually quite social. I am pretty sure that he's a Carpenter's Fairy Wrasse(Paracheilinus carpenteri).
Marine Fishes p.306 for those that have Scott Michael's handbook.

These guys are just plain cool. He's flashes everything and has the most personality of any fish I have ever seen. The tang does not even acknowledge its existance which is a big bonus. That tang could probably gobble him up if he felt inclined to do so.

Now the $10,000 question is, would I be able to add a school of anthias???

[cal3v]

I suppose so. Wht would you suspect to be the problem in doing so?

[dendronepthya]

I guess my concerns were two-fold regarding the addition of anthias:
1. The type I was contemplating were the Lyretail variety(Pseudanthias squamipinnis) that can get a little chippy with other similar sized/shaped planktivores such as my wrasse.
2. Stocking level may be an issue here as well. Since I am talking about a school of anthias, I want to get as many as my 120 can support to lessen the aggression per individual. I was thinking about a school of 8 or so.

I'm just curious what other people think.


(man, I should really start a new thread, heck the title has nothing to do with what I am talking about!)

[cal3v]

I am going to add some kind of anthias to my 55g reef with a redfin fairy wrasse. I susprect taht the wrasse and anthasi will be able to hold their own should one begin to pick on the other. I think that both will be fine imo.

[Gary Majchrzak]

I've never tried the Anthias and flasher wrasse combo personally. Scott Michael's "Reef Fishes Vol.1" specifically mentions certain anthias species will harass flasher wrasses, as well as other planktivores. You guys really ought to get the book if your going to attempt ANTHIAS! It contains many pictures of anthias species most of us have NEVER seen,and mentions what different species aggregate together. I have kept flashers and anthias in different tanks in the past, and I can assure you that the flasher wrasses are MEEK compared to anthias species. I can imagine most anthias ending a flasher's aquarium longevity QUITE quickly!

[cal3v]

Thanks Gary. I DO need to get that book, lol. I didn't even know of that one. My cyrrhilabrus rubripinnis is probably the most aggressive fish in my 55g reef right now. I am pretty sure he can give ONE anthias a run for it's money, not sure about the 8 in dendro's tank though. My wrasse is about 2.5" right now. Would this "harassment" in any way trigger a more agressive feeding behavior in anthias?

[Gary Majchrzak]

cal3v- Your wrasse sounds like a toughguy- ! I wouldn't want to trigger a more aggressive feeding behavior in ANY healthy anthias . I've watched larger species gulp down {freshwater} rosy reds without mercy. Those rosy reds were all larger than 2.5"! :crazy1:

[acrophoria]

i have the above fairys and a trio of squampinis 2 female and one male,never bother fairys,to busy playing with each other,real charecters,great fish

[dendronepthya]

Gary Majchrzak,
It's funny that you mention Reef Fishes vol.1. I was up late last night reading that and the pocket reference trying to decide whether I should be adding anthias to my system. I have read that section on anthias about 10 times since I have bought the book hoping each time I read it that anthais will be easier to keep. No such luck.

It said pretty clearly that the lyretail anthias is one of the more aggressive anthias, and you should be careful since they may pester peaceful planktivores like...fairy wrasses. Wonderful.

I think that along with the recommended school size of 9 individuals, and recommended minimum tank size of 180 gal. My current setup is not a great fit. It's a tad small, and I think 9 anthias may be a little crowded.

acrophoria,
It's great that you aren't having trouble with your anthias and fairy wrasses. I however, am almost guaranteed to have problems. If it CAN go wrong in my tank it WILL.

One thing I read in the pocket guide though was that flasher wrasse actually do well in groups. It says nothing about male-male conflicts which I was worried about. I did see a few other flashers at the LFS, and I am now thinking hard about picking them up now that the anthias school has been put on the back burner.

[Gary Majchrzak]

Dendro- I was re-reading that chapter last night as well! It is kind of confusing. Scott Michael does infer that practically any anthias that eats can be kept, and it's better to have 1 healthy individual than a self-destructing school of them. But the sentiment of many is "Why bother", if you are unable to keep a school of these gorgeous fishes. From my personal experience I would recommend a single Lyretail {P. squamipinnis} anthias {male} to be a reefers' first anthias 'attempt. Please keep me informed on the flasher wrasse social- it sounds GREAT! ;)

[Wolverine]

Dendro, I was just going to e-mail you about this, since we'd been talking about it the other day. I read through the same stuff and was going to suggest that you not get the school of lyretails. I think they'll beat that wrasse back into a hole in the rocks, and you'll never see it again.

You might be able to get away with it with one of the more peaceful species of anthias, but you'd probably still be pushing it (or, as Tom used to say "If you do it just right...").

Dave

[cal3v]

Gary thos emust be some FAT ol' anthias man. That's crazy! We'll just have to wait and see in my tank. I'll be sure to give you an update on the whole situation when I get the anthias.:) 2.5" is like my pinky finger man. An anthias can eat that?

[Gary Majchrzak]

Wait 'till you see 'em YAWN! The jaws are something else! Did you ever go BASS fishing? Another name for anthias is BASSLET.:lol2:

[cal3v]

Bass fishing oh yeah. Lol, one time I went fishing and was just messing around and there were baby largemouth like palm size and you could stick your pinkie in there.

[dendronepthya]

I have an update of my multiple flasher wrasse situation. I purchased two additonal flashers from my LFS. They are slightly different from each other. They are all reddish, but the colors and shapes of the fins are a little different. Anyhow, when I was acclimating them, the incumbent flasher wrasse went right up to the bags and wanted a peice of the new fish. That wasn't encouraging.

I figured I'd lower the lights a little, and release them far away from the old wrasse's territory. The first one smartly went into the rocks where I let him out. The second one, went straight for the old wrasse, and prompty got his butt kicked. He eventually figured out that this was some other wrasse's territory and scooted to the rocks further away. He was pretty beaten up after that.

I am hoping this is just a one day thing. Everyone is chippy the first day of additions, and usually after a night to sleep it off, the next day comes without incident. These things are supposed to be slightly more aggressive than sea horses, so I doubt that they will continue to bicker. I hope not anyways.

OK, time for bed, I'll give another update tomorrow, and see if those new guys are on my carpet. Sigh.

[dendronepthya]

OK, this morning I checked the tank again. The good news is, all three flasher wrasse are still in the tank. Yes, that's the good news. They don't like one another at all. The one the got its butt kicked has pretty much laid down. It swims out in the open, but the old wrasse completely intimidates it. The other new addition is hanging out behind the overflow box. He's a slightly larger one, and he will fight with the old wrasse. He's coming out a little more after a little bit of coaxing(food). I was hoping everything would be cool this morning, but I have a feeling that it may take longer for these fish to get over their little border skirmishes. I am sure that these three 1" fish can find a way to share a 120 gal. reef.

[Gary Majchrzak]

Make sure that none of them can jump out as they are prone to leaping. To help them retain red pigmentation feed foods containing beta-carotines; I use 'Ocean Nutrition' Prime Reef flakes, and the formula 1 & 2 will work as well.

[dendronepthya]

I have found that these fish eat darn near anything. Someone posted in some other thread that flasher wrasse shouldn't be imported because they are reluctant feeders. Yeah, right. I currently feed three types of frozen foods, a veggie cube(with brine and mysis), an all mysis cube, and crushed frozen krill. I treat all of the above with selcon and Kent marine zoe before feeding. For the tang, I toss in a soaked peice of nori, and when he breaks off small peices of that, sometimes the flasher will gobble up a peice. Never expected that.

Their favorite is brine which is no surprise considering it is the equivalent of a donut nutritionally speaking. I try to taper the feeding towards more healthy foods however, and the wrasse do consume healthy quantities of mysis shrimp as well as the occasional copepod that fails to scurry under a rock.

I am at work, and I really wish I had a webcam on my tank.

[Wolverine]

Dendro, I guess I'm coming in kind of late here, but I was going to tell you that one of the guys at my LFS has a 75g tank, and he kept more than 8 different species of flashers in there without any problems as far as the fish were concerned (he recently had a crash because of planaria), so it can be done.

Dave

Hmmm... brine ... hmmmm

[dendronepthya]

Last update. The three flasher wrasse are all hanging out together as though nothing happened. Two days ago, they were going for the throat, but now, they don't even flash each other. They flash the tang who couldn't care less.

Gary Majchrzak,
What kind of foods contain beta-carotines? Formula 2? The reason I was wondering is because I use another brand that would be analogous to formula 2. It is a veggie cube with mysis shrimp.

[dendronepthya]

Here is a pic I took today of the flasher wrasse. I could only get two in the photo.

[Gary Majchrzak]

Just got back from a weekend with my family @ Niagara Falls,Canada. Stopped in a Lockport LFS on the way home, and guess what- they have a FLAME WRASSE in an uncovered aquarium! He's NFS- not for sale! This store is about 60 miles from me, so I get there very rarely. But it made me think of this thread. Dendro- formula 1 &2 as well as Prime Reef flake by 'Ocean Nutrition' has the carotenoid pigments that will help keep flashers and anthias red. I don't use the frozen so I can't answer about them.Check the ingredients...? Nice pic!!! :smokin:

[cal3v]

If you don't already do so, maek your own food. It's really cheap and even though ON is good, homemade is even better. My main ingredient to keep red color: salmon. I also added some shrimp, oysters, clams, scallops, selco, flying fish roe, and some other stuff I can't remember.

[Gary Majchrzak]

I've consulted local 'experts'and even freshwater aquarists will agree with cal3v : get salmon into the diet! The ON flakes DO contain it ,as well.