bugs

[Semi newbie]

Okay now it is time for a super huge dumb question so please laugh quietly so I don't have to hear you all from my living room!!!! I have been reading all the posts and am interested in the ones about the pods only because I never see anything in my tank. Are you supposed to be able to see these little critters? Something must be going right in my tank because my water parameters are really good(at least for now). When I started my tank I used southdown and then added some live sand from a friend to seed the dead sand. I saw one wormy thing once and then saw one sort of pod thing once but never anything again. I sometimes look for things but figure if my numbers are good then there is something going on in there. Is this way too naive of me? How do you know when you have to replenish? What fish eat these guys? I have a yellow tang, a hawk fish, a blenny, a clown and a striped damsel. Thanks for your help...Lynn

[kmagyar]

You will see them more likely at night then at daylight. Most pods move kinda fast. Here are some biology links on pods.

http://www.museum.vic.gov.au/crust/amphbiol.html

http://203.162.139.22/sardi/AacrabCWare/Australia-MarineCrustacea/amphigal.html

[Stoli]

Semi:

How long has your tank been set up. It took mine about 3 months before they became noticeable (only after lights out). Also, how much live rock is in your tank? Is there anything in your tank that might be eating them (mandarins, shrimp, hermits, other crabs, etc.)? If you need a cup of sand, I can spare some. Note that I have a bit of a cyano problem though. Keep looking.

[Semi newbie]

My tank has been up for about a year now. I don't have any other inhabitants than a yellow tang, a hawk fish, a blennie, a striped damsel, and a clown. I also have some snails and hermits, some stow away starfish from when I bought the rock and a red star fish(serpent star maybe???) I have looked at night and am not seeing anything. Where should I be looking, at the rocks or the sand? The tank is 44 gallons and I probably have close to 60 pounds in live rock from John at MO. I have been told by some that I did my sand bed wrong because I put down some dry aragonite stuff first then I decided I wanted to try the live sand bed (DSB) method so I added southdown and seeded with live sand. I have some bigger pieces and some really small and have been told 'yeah this is fine' and 'no I messed up and should have removed all the aragonite stuff first'. Like I said before I always get conflicting info and get very confused at times. It has been working however and I think that is the best confirmation that all is okay I can get. Could the different sized particles be preventing anything from living in your opinions? I think maybe the sand I got from my friend was not all the "live". I think I will seek out a source of "live sand and try adding it.

[Stoli]

I received some very good advise from a local friend (Playfair) a few months ago when I was describing some of the comments I received regarding my DSB with a plenum. He said that anyone who says that only one way works probably doesn't know nearly as much as he claims. Yes, there are more accepted (common?) methods of setting up DSBs but noone has yet come up with the final answer on which system is best. DSB, DSB with Plenum, original berlin with no sand, etc. I really don't think that the grain size in your sand bed will be a big influence on your bug population.

I might suggest that you swap some of your live rock with rock from another vendor such as CF or Living Seas (maybe they'll work a deal). If nothing else, it will add some diversity. No guarantees. I'd try to get some sand from a few other really active beds. Feed a bit and then don't worry too much. If everything is doing well, I'm not sure a low pod population is indicative of anything.

Oh, one more thing. Do you have any other critters moving the sand a bit. Maybe a cuke or some narcissus snails? A fighting conch is good too.

Virtually everyone on this board knows much more than me (although I do listen quite a bit and read everything I can get my hands on). Listen to there opinions, sift out the absolutes, and you'll do fine.

[saltwaterfishlover]

Stoli
Just out of curiousity how are your nitrates? I had a bad cyano outbreak a while back and my nitrates were over 100.... got them under control with a mag350 filter runnign biomatrix. a couple weeks of that nitrate down to 5 and no more cyano....
I am by far knowledgeable in these stuff but it worked for me.
I am a newbie to the club saw you at playfairs but didnt get much time to talk. been playing in salt for 15 years but the last 4 getting serious....
andy

[ReeferMac]

Lynn,

One of the biggest problems in this hobby, particularly with the prevelance of the internet, is "Mythinformation". I think Dave nailed it right on the head, as Stoli quoted...

anyone who says that only one way works probably doesn't know nearly as much as he claims.

Is very, very true. There are very few absolutes in life, even fewer in this hobby (as to the best of my knowledge, fish don't pay taxes... hmm. wonder if I can claim that as dependents?).

That being said, your thought pattern seems correct to me. I don't think you made any mistakes by dropping new dead/live sand on top of an already dead sandbed. If you're not having any problem algae growth or other issue's, and all your corals and fish are doing fine, than you must be doing something right, right?

One technique that I've found worked for me, was to get a couple of Lbs of Live Sand every time I go to the LFS, for a month or two at a time. I used to make frequent trips down to the LFS's in Buffalo (prices are way better), but that was before having a mortgage. I would get a couple of pounds from the one place, couple from the other, and add them both to my bed. Did this for a couple months, gradually increasing the sandbed depth. I also ordered a bunch of bugs from IPSF (IA has a nice assortment too) around that time. By adding sand from different sources over a length of time, I guaranteed I was getting sand collected from different places. The one store in Buff. got new sand in about every two weeks... so every two weeks I was adding 2 Lbs of LS from a different place in the ocean. Different bugs, different critters... do this often enough, you get diversity (or so my theory goes). There were also certain critters I knew I wanted to have, and wasn't seeing, so those I ordered in to make sure I had a lot of 'em. Now, even after my move, things are really rocking again.

Maintaing a sandbed isn't all that easy though... it's another part of taking care of the tank. Once you get it established (the hard part), about all you have to do is make sure you're feeding enough, and the bed will almost take care of itself. Natural Sand Sifters are a good addition, as Stoli said, Nassarius snails and Cuke's are pretty much reef-safe, and will help prevent that layer of Crap from forming on top. IME Spaghetti worms do a great job of this as well. The Fighting Conch's are also a good addition, but need a decent amount of LS on which to feed (they eat Diatoms too). I tried 5 in my 90, and am down to 3 now...

Or you can go the cheaper route, and get some bugs and slugs from us folks :eek:

Couple of us have sandbeds in pretty good working order... I also have a refugium running on my system, which produces a lot of 'pods for the tanks. David Jones's next in line for a "kit", but can add you after him. I shouldn't have any problems making up two next time I'm in there... We might even be getting together one night this week (tonight Dave, if I can get home on time). If you'd like to see a DSB in working order, and get an idea as to how many "bugs" you should see, feel free to stop by. Send me a PM with your phone number, and if we're getting together this week I'll give you a call (hell, looks like we got another mini-meet in the works... when's someone going to have the next meeting? It's going to be up to me again, isn't it? :-)

- Mac

[Semi newbie]

I'm not going to lie and say I have absolutely no algae grow because I do but it is not a ton and it is not the bad stuff. It is some florescent green nuisance algae on the back wall. I also have some diatoms on the sand bed which is leading me to believe, along with not seeing them, that I don't have too many bugs. The top layer of sand in one area seems to always have that red color which I am not crazy about. I have seen tanks where the sand looks pure white and I would love that for mine. My corals and fish are in great shape and my levels are great as well. I do have some nasarrius snails. They are the ones with the longer shells right? I have some turbos, and some others with rounded shells that I don't know the name of. I was afraid of a cucumber because I have heard they can toxify your tank but I have meet many people who keep them. I have to work tonight so I would not be able to see your tank this evening but I am definitely interested in any help I can be provided. I am thinking of maybe picking out some of the larger pieces in my sandbed to help clean it up but what a pain!!!! Thanks Lynn

[Stoli]

Saltwater:

Good question about the nitrates. According to two different tests, they are undetectable in my tank. I suspect the problem stems from a lack of a skimmer. My goal is to have the tank populations balance to the point where the cyano goes away without skimming. After six months though, I am beginning to have my doubts. I figure I'll give it to the summer. If the cyano is not under control, I'll take the plunge on a skimmer. Nothing seems to be suffering from it so its just an aesthetic issue.

[ReeferMac]

Newbie - Red stuff on your sand? You sure that isn't Cyanobacteria? That's about the only thing I know of that's red and will grow on your sandbed (and everything else if given the chance). If your sand was white when you put it in, it should basically look white in your tank. Mine's taken on a slightly yellower color, but that's it. I've had problems with Cyano and other nuisance algae's in the past however.

Stoli - Skimmerless isn't all that hard. If you limit the nutrient import enough, you don't need one. Problem is maintaining the balance (assuming you're able to find it), while still feeding everything enough to not cause it to crash. Did it for about a year on my tank, and would have success for a few weeks, and then problems, success, then problems. Big PIA. As it is now, I've got a horribly underpowered skimmer (read=next to none), and am keeping things just fine. I get a touch of hair algae from time to time, but that's about it. I'm able to feed more now, than when I had none at all, but I don't see the thing pulling much gunk out.
One of these days I'll find a spare $150 and get around to building my HSA skimmer.. already got the tubing, just need a pump.

- Mac

[Semi newbie]

Could be, what is it? What do I do to get rid of it? It doesn't seem to be harming anything it is just ugly!!!

[ReeferMac]

Geeze, how to get rid of Cyano... Good question.

Seriously, that's taken up gob's of bandwidth from this and lots of other sites out there trying to figure out. It's not easy. The stuff outcompetes damn near everything for nutrients (grows faster than hair algae). And having been there myself, trust me, you don't want it to bloom and go nuts in your tank. When I say I've had it covering EVERYTHING in my tank, I really do mean everything. Was growing on every spot you could see, except for my anemone. Nasty stuff when it gets out of control. The problem with it (besides the way it looks), is that it can overgrow and cover up some of your corals, starving them of the light. Eventually you can lose the coral, and there may be other risks too (could give off chemicals, etc.) It's also a sign of more serious things being out of whack. If you don't already have a good set of test kits, that might be something to put on the wish list before anything else. Can't rectify a problem if you don't know what it is. Nitrate, Nitrite, Ammonia, and Phosphate are the big 4 DOC's you'll want to look at. Calcium and Alkalinity are the two major non-organic components to test for.

~Yes, I do realize I just told you to run out and get a couple hundred dollars worth of test kits.~

If you don't have all of these yet, I'd say run up to your favorite LFS (pick the one you've spent the most money at...) and ask them to test your water for you. Most of the one's I've been to use pretty crummy kits, and I'd take their readings with a grain of salt... Or you can beg, borrow and plead with the group here to help you out ;-) Hey, that way we'll all know who you are:

"Who Lynn? She's the girl that walks around at all the meetings with a water sample..."

LOL... just kidding, I couldn't resist :D
I've got LaMotte kits for Ca. and Alk. You're welcome to try out... just bring a sample of water with you in a clean container (very clean - don't want anything throwing off the results).

Once you know what you're dealing with, you'll be able to attack it a lot more intelligently. As a general rule of thumb however, water change, carbon, and a good cleaning of the protein skimmer are the first things to do when almost anything gets out of whack. That is of course assuming that your source water isn't a part of the problem.

- Mac

[Semi newbie]

Well here is the scoop. I only had it on my sand/rubble pieces. I sifted out the larger stuff and things seem to be okay(for now). It was almost like diatoms in that it was brushed easily away, it didn't really stick to anything. My last water test revealed as follows: Ammonia 0, nitrate~10, Ph 8.4, alk 3.6, ca 480, nitrite <.2, temp 78-80, salinity 1.024-1.025. I am thinking these numbers are all good...RIGHT?????? I do have carbon in my sump(how often should that be changed?) The water flows through a barrier before it hits the sump, and I change that once a week. I have a protein skimmer which I empty about once a week. I think maybe I overfeed? What else ~60 pounds of coralline encrusted live rock and then a couple of incidental corals in there also!!!!!!!! Do you still think it could be cyano?????? I want to jump on this one! I really don't have any other algae going on except for some green nuisance stuff on the back glass and at the seams in front! Thank you all so much for listening to me and helping, I really do appreciate it.

[ReeferMac]

Numbers soudn OK... you want to get all the DOC"s to as close to zero as possible, but on most test kits', they're not accurate enough. That's why I spent the money on the LaMotte's.. wanted to get really accurate readings of how the Kalkwasser was maintaining my tank...

Anyway, it definitely sounds like Cyano to me, described it to a "T".

Phospahtes is the next big question for it then. From what I've heard and read it's one of the big factors for Cyano blooms... usually it gets into the system from source water, bad salt, or foods. Excess foods rot away as you know, but also the foods that get consumed... fish poop's got phosphate's in it. So it gets into the tank. Exporting it is the hard part. Assuming clean water, you can remove it by performing regular water changes. If everything in the world is perfect and this tank were in a laboratory where the laws of physics and biology always acted according to their formula's... I'd say you weren't changing enough water for the amount you're feeding. You can change what you feed (another of the reasons I started making my own...), you can feed less of it, or you can change more water. Now there's consequences to each of those options... if you're already underfeeding, you don't want to feed less... That's a loaded questions tho.. what's too little and what's too much. And this is the real world, where our tanks do what they want, and sacrifices should be made to the reef gods before every batch of water gets changed... so it could be a million things. I'm hardly in a position to make a judgement like that....
Carbon should be changed every couple of days.. at most a week. From what I've read, it starts to leech stuff back into the water after 3-4 days, depending on concentration of nutrients and flow, etc. Myself I've left it sit there for weeks before... But if you want it to work the way it's supposed to work, change it once a week, at least. A good skimmer will take a lot of the load off... It pulls all of the crap out before it gets down to the chemical component level, so that Cyano never gets a chance to feed on it.

- Mac