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Wild Card-inal
02/22/2002, 06:11 AM
I think the breeder's registry is down, so I can't view Frank's article.

Anyway, my main concern is what to feed the adults to get them into breeding condition. What did Frank feed them?

dc
02/22/2002, 10:58 AM
Going to go for the easier way.;) You could probably do a search just on this forum and get all the info you need.:D First you need the right sex, beyond that I know nothing. Just thought you needed a hard time!

Wild Card-inal
02/22/2002, 03:20 PM
For some reason, sexing is the least of my concerns.

Hmmm, the site's back up...

Wild Card-inal
02/23/2002, 01:35 PM
Feeding has always been my most major concern. How long does it take (on average) for a Brine shrimp culture to reach a good size for feeding to Banggai Cardinal ADULTs? Or should I just purchase frozen ones (which always come dead)?

Wild Card-inal
02/24/2002, 10:33 AM
bump

Sally
02/24/2002, 11:03 AM
Wild Card: This is just my opinion but I would not feed my adult cards live adult brine shrimp. IMO brine shrimp does not have much nutritional value. The only reason I feed it to the babies is because that is all they will accept ( live baby brine) at first. I feed my adults my recipe of prepared food (scallops,shrimp,clams) soaked in selcon. After my babies are about 3 weeks old I switch them to this prepared food. I am using the tank dividers in my 30 gallon breeder. It is divided into three sections. One with the dad (I had to remove him from the female so he could have a rest). One side has cards that are 3 months old and one side has cards that are a 1.5 month old. I also have a breeders net with cards that were born last Tues. Originally I put the new babies with the one month olds and I saw one eat a new baby...Could barely fit it in it's mouth..but ate it!! That's when I got the breeder net to put them in. Next week (it's ordered) I'm getting another 30 gallon breeder. All these offspring are from one pair..that is why I had to remove the male from the female in my main tank (55 gallon). He needs a rest (was getting thin) and so do I!

Wild Card-inal
02/24/2002, 11:34 AM
Wow, didn't expect any fish to be THAT prolific at spawning other than guppies!

I guess I'll just feed Selcon-soaked chopped-up cocktail shrimp. That's okay, right? About how small should the pieces be, since cardinals aren't the largest of fish. Also, how much Selcon?

How do you make those cool little urchins I see in so many pics? The one with the wooden dowels.

Sally
02/24/2002, 03:07 PM
Wild Card: I can only tell you what I use. I guess cocktail shrimp (uncooked with the shell off) would be ok. You may just want to go to the local seafood dept. at your grocery. I ask for a few scallops, shrimp, clams, oysters (variety) and put them all in the food processor so that is is kinda like a mush. Put this is a baggie...flatten the baggie...freeze and then just break off a piece. When I break off a piece I usually put some selcon( drop or two)on it...it thaws...I put it in some tank water and then feed the fish with a turkey baster. As far as the urchin...I just used some reef epoxy..(make it into a ball) and stuck in a bunch of plastic toothpicks. Hope this helps...Good luck!

Wild Card-inal
02/26/2002, 06:21 AM
I value your input Sally.

Anyone else like to add anything?

BTW, did Marini add calcium to his water?

Wild Card-inal
02/26/2002, 09:48 PM
Oh come on, there was just a huge discussion about Banggais and now I've only got two other people in this topic...

FMarini
02/26/2002, 11:44 PM
Mr wild-C:
No reason to get flustered over this. All the articles are available online and can be read at your leisure.
I feed my banggais what i would consider a well balanced diet, as far as conditioning to prep for breeding. Nothing.
UNTIL, I figured out i could feed more meaty foods, as well as, fish roe to the females to fatten them up. I believe the fish roe helped the production of banggi eggs and their viability (since the fish roe where high in HUFAs).
However, many people report great success in breeding their banggai w/o any change in the diet of the fish.
I always tried to isolate the males after they released, and fattened them up for 5 to 7 days. Becuz w/in a few days after reintroduction to a gravid female she would have them carrying.

Did I add calcium to the water NO. Fish don't absorb much thru the water, they (like us) absorb our nutrients thru our gut. Did i calcium enrich the banggai foods. No, again I figured a well rounded diet was sufficient. Remember that i only had selcon, and vita-chem available as nutrient booster back in 95.
May i recommend a search in this forum for banggai and foods.
frank

Wild Card-inal
02/27/2002, 08:37 PM
Interesting; many people say that calcium is important in keeping fish at maximum health, yet you've bred them without it. Interesting...

Where do you get fish roe? Local Pathmark? Chinatown?

Wild Card-inal
03/01/2002, 06:02 PM
(another question)

Has anyone noticed any differences in the Pelvic fin or Anal fin lengths? Is it possible?

Wild Card-inal
03/02/2002, 07:19 PM
I have a lot of time, but I guess I'm just a little impatient...

FMarini
03/03/2002, 01:58 AM
Wild:
Thanks for the questions
I've not noticed a difference in pelvic or anal fin length between the sexes. Then again if its different its not apparent nor obvious, and i've not taken a metric ruler to their fins.

AS far as Calcium, you have to remember that artifical SW (like IO) has alot more Ca than NSW, also if you read the articles i do frequent water exchanges to maintain water quality, so I have to say that even thou I didn't supplment, my tank was well supplemented.

Lastly as I mentioned fish don't get Ca from the water. They get it from the food, so as long as the fry get quality eats then they will do well. AS far as the adults i suspect they got plenty of Ca from the food i was feeding them.
frank

Wild Card-inal
03/03/2002, 09:07 AM
At what age do you think I should stop feeding Brine Shrimp nauplii and feed something like shaved fish meat or shaved shrimp (all with Selcon, of course)?

FMarini
03/03/2002, 09:32 AM
Wild:
Let me present you w/ the information and that way you can decide when the best time is.
For me personally, I started to incorporate dead prepared foods (like shaved shrimp) at day 10-14. It all depends on how big the fry where and how aggressive they were eating. Others on this board (Guy in particular), he found his fry would take prawn eggs at day 1, and used this as a food source until he added in dead food, somewhere earlier than my day 10. One point of note w/ Guys Prawn eggs where is fry were substantially bigger at a given time point than my fry.
I have also reviewed threads here which others claim (this means i have NOT personally seen it) that they have been able to incorporate dead foods in the menu around day 3-5.
So i will say that the quick to getting the fry to a larger size sooner is adequate food and lots of it. Baby brine shrimp (BBS) is an excellent starter food has it has worked for over 1000's of banggai fry. However it is not the perfect food and apparently from Guys results, BBS might not be the maximally nutiritious.
You call
frank

Wild Card-inal
03/03/2002, 10:06 AM
Interesting... I guess I'll just decide when I actually have the fish and have the babies...

Wow, I've probably read every Banggai breeding article to date! Let's see... Marini... Clarke... Atlantisaquatics... Fish 'n' chips... MARSH... eParc... Yeah, I think I've read virtually all of them...

Will babies be threatened by invertebrates such as larger hermits, bristleworms, and cleaner shrimp?

FMarini
03/03/2002, 02:01 PM
Wild:
"Will babies be threatened by invertebrates such as larger hermits, bristleworms, and cleaner shrimp?"

YUP
Basically any critter in your tank will find banggai fry as potential food. if you skim back to the beginning of this forum, there is a very long thread intiated by K Clarke and he shows photos of his banngers (thats my name for banggai fry) in a refugium. I point to this thread becuz he had to pull out the cleaners and hermits from the refugium, if i recall correctly he watched one of the them snag a bangger. If your gonn leave the fry in the main tank expect to take serious losses, if you plan on uysing a grwo out tank lik i have doen, leave it deviod except the banggai
good luck
frank
PS...there are a number of other articles out there on these fish.They happen to be in scientific publications.

pnosko
03/03/2002, 02:09 PM
Hey sally and wild-c, what's the story/purpose of this epoxy urchin? :confused:

Sally
03/03/2002, 05:19 PM
In the wild the baby cardinals will live in a long spined urchin for protection.

FMarini
03/03/2002, 06:10 PM
Pnosko:
Sally is right on the money.

Thanks Sally.

Hence the coloration pattern of the banggai. The vertical black stripes on the banggai supposedly emulate the spines of a diadema "black long spined sea urchin", and the shimmery silver is the water space.
I would be remiss if i didn't mention that in our fish tanks, baby banggais (and adults) often times find shelter in the tentecles of long tentecled plate corals (fungia), and anemones. Its a real interesting sight, especially since some banggais apparently can build up a tolerance to anemone stings, and live like clownfish w/ a host anemone.
frank

Wild Card-inal
03/03/2002, 06:18 PM
I don't plan to keep them in the main tank, but I just want to know since they'll probably be swimming in there a while before I wake up and find them in there...

Of course, I can get a tank divider and separate the male from everything else when I find him 'holding'.

Snails wouldn't be a threat, would they?

Wild Card-inal
03/17/2002, 12:57 PM
I'm finally in tank set-up stage! YES!

I've got my 55 gallon tank (more than enough, hehe) ready to go. I just emptied a bag of leftover play sand from a school project in there, so I need one or two more bags of play sand. Then I have to get a bunch of salt, a powerhead, a few rocks, thrown in a cocktail shrimp and voila! A 6 week wait!

Would snails and conchs be a threat to banggai babies? What about bristleworms and starfish? Any other detrivores that people say they need that can eat babies? I'm going to get detrivores, but I CAN'T have a loss of babies.

Are babies especially sensitive to anything in the water?

Sally
03/17/2002, 04:34 PM
IMO snails, conchs, mini-stars, bristle worms are not a threat to the babies. The biggest problem is finding them in the 55 gallon tank. Are you going to have a lot of live rock?I can only talk from my experience...my first brood I found 5 babies in the tank and got them out, second brood he had 8 but I could only get 7 out of the tank and the other disappeared. The third brood I decided to get the male out of the tank before he released and I put him in a breeder tank and he released 44. The cards are the only ones in my 55 reef tank. I can't imagine he had two small broods and then 44 on the last one. I have a lot of live rock/coral in my 55 and they either hid or got eaten by the parents.

Wild Card-inal
03/17/2002, 04:47 PM
Woah, the parents are the biggest threat. Ironic, even though I know about it.

No, I won't have too much lr; I don't have too much of a budget so I don't think I can even pile them up; maybe one or two here and there. :rolleyes:

Wild Card-inal
03/24/2002, 09:06 AM
Another question...

If I were to use one of those tank dividers that lets the current pass through, I wouldn't have any problems with the babies going through them, right? I'm pretty confident that they don't since Sally uses them...

FMarini
03/24/2002, 09:47 AM
wild:
the tank dividers are fine the holes are too smal for the banggers to fit thru. If you get a chance feel free to revisit my 97 reefs.org article you can see my setup there which contans 4 tank dividers in my main tank I housed 1 male in each divided areas and just past 2 females around
frank

Wild Card-inal
03/24/2002, 09:52 AM
Oh yeah! How could I forget?