Any tips for grouper ?

[richardhk]

Hello, there:

I wish to receive more information about groupers. Kindly:

1) Advise/suggest what websites would provide such information
2) What is your experience on the growth
period of different groupers?

I have 3 Miniatus( 3.5-4 inches), 5.5 inch
Panther, 2 Honeycomb (same size as Miniatus),
one (3 inch) peacock grouper.

Which grows the fastest?

3) What, how often, how much do you feed them?
4) How many protein skimmers do you have?
5) How do you cope up with the excretions/
ammonia build-up?
6)The miniatus and the honeycomb and
the blue grouper like to scrape themselves
against the rock for the past several weeks.
They eat like horses--from silversides, to brine
shrimps, to small shrimps to mussels, to clams.

Should I be doing something about their scraping, is it sign of ich?

Hope somebody can respond to my question.

Do you have good website about grouper
culture too?

[Skipper]

Hey Richard. I don't have much experience with groupers, so I will move this over to our Fish Care forum. I think you are more likely to get some information there. Good luck with da groupers. :D

[moved]

[Wolverine]

I don't think I can answer all of your questions, but I'll do what I can. Some more information would help. What size tank are these in? I hope it's a monster, because you've got some fish in there that are going to get pretty damn big in a hurry.

The Peacock grouper (assuming it's Cephaloppolis argus, aka Bluespotted grouper) and the miniata (C. miniata) should both get to around 16" full grown. The panther grouper (Cromileptes altivelis) can get well over 2' long. I'm not sure what the "honeycomb" grouper is, since I've never seen that common name, so I can't help you there. IME, panther groupers grow very quickly, and I'd put my money on that one to get biggest quickest.

About 3 feedings per week is usually sufficient for groupers. But when they do eat, they eat like pigs, and should probably be fed quite a bit at those times, especially in this tank to make sure all of them get some food. The rule with groupers is that they will eat anything that can fit into their mouths.

The number of protein skimmers isn't necessarily as important as the quality of the skimmer. I'll take one Lifereef or Euroreef over a dozen Seaclones. With these fish, you'll need a lot of skimming power, and I mean a lot of skimming power. They make a lot of waste, and it takes a lot to remove all that. Especially if you plan to have this eventually be a reef.

The ammonia should not build up. If it is, you're in for a lot of trouble. I hope you didn't add all these fish at once. And if you did, I hope that wasn't to a new system. I think to best answer this question we'll need to know more about your system.

The scraping on the rocks is worrisome, as that's often a sign of irritation and sickness in the fish. Fish with Ick do often scrape themselves on the rocks, and it's probably the most common cause of that behavior.

Actually, overall we can answer a lot of questions better the more info you give us; here are some things to let us know about:
What size is the tank?
How long has it been set up?
How long have the fish been in there?
What kind of filtration are you using?
How much LR do you have?
What kind of skimmer do you have?
What's your substrate, and how deep is it?
What are your parameters: temp, salinity, ammonia, nitrite, nitrate?

Dave

[miniatus2003]

My favorite fish, hence the name grouperman

I have found that the panther grouper gets the largest in the shortest time. Any Miniatus I have kept can get quite tame and very agressive. Iwould reccommend only one grouper to a tank as they can turn on one another in the blink of an eye.

My last fish only tank had a Miniatus, Clown tigger, and a snowflake eel in a 90gal. Had a huge volitan lionfish but the grouper killed him. I did 25% water changes weekly, and used 2 cpr skimmers. Best food i found were silversides with guts still in them.

Alan

note: avoid the 6 line grouper as they can emit a toxic chemical into the tank and wipe it out , Been there done that.

[Barracuda]

richardhk

I got your two private emails, & as you requested, here are my thoughts / comments:

1) I did a quick "google" search, and found numerous scientific & aquarium related websites.

2) Generally, the family Serranidae

Most "groupers" are predominantly ambush / sit & wait type predators, with body & fin propulsion designed for short / quick bursts of speed. Most can be found lying on the bottom sediments or on rocks (hence "rock cods" / "rock fish") resting on their pelvic fins with the caudal peduncle & fin is curved, ready to spring forward and engulf their prey. Other characteristics include the operculum having razor sharp serrations - serranidae family distinction, chameleon like color pigmentation, never - never - ending appetite.

Serranidae generally have a quick juvenile growth spurt followed by a consistent growth rate throughout its normal lifespan.

Miniatus gets an average size of 15" to 18" in captivity. These groupers are generally very shy at juvenile to sub-adult sizes. They are extremely aggressive as they mature / increase in size, compared to other serranid's.

Generally, aquarium specimens become duller in appearance over time. The larger specimens can become lethargic, susceptible to "hole in the Head" / "HLLE" disease and accumulation of lipids / fats in body tissues. Occasionally, I have seen numerous captive large serranidid's with curved operculums.

Blue spot ~ peacock grouper are slightly smaller then the miniatus, with an average length of 12" to 15" in captivity. Fairly shy as a juvenile, but not as much as a miniatus. Not as aggressive as the miniatus and somewhat more susceptible to disease, especially "crypt-ich" then other groupers.

Honeycomb?, do you mean "Epinephelides sps, maybe E. merra" grouper. If so this grouper gets about the same size as the peacocks. Very shy & reclusive compared to the others.

Panthers are the largest in your group averaging more then 2 feet in length!.

3) fastest growing groupers listed - panther, peacock / miniatus, honeycomb. There growth rates will be greatly affected by tank size & grouper population. Will force one to grow very fast to maintain dominance which results in one becoming stunted / harrassed / dead, leading to further deaths along the pecking order.

4 & 5) Since feeding time & resulting waste production create the largest demand on the filter / environment, it would be wise in your case to incorporate a wet-dry / trickle filter. This will first, increase the dissolved oxygen in the water, and quickly breakdown the waste products. Supplemental protein skimming, live rock & / or algal filters will help with water conditions. Ozone reactor / skimmer wouldn't hurt either.

6) "Scraping on the rock" generally means some sort of parasite, generally an external critter in the gill filaments or fish slime coat, depending upon the type of scratching. You need to treat the groupers with a prolonged exposure to a hyposaline environment.

I won't dwell on the issues of fish size to tank size, as all those groupers mentioned can reach in excess of 15 pounds each!.

Hope this helps

[Wolverine]

OK, I got your e-mails, and so I'll reply as best I can here. Barracuda gave you some good info there in his post.

The first thing I would worry about in your situation is the tank size. Any of those groupers on their own should be in a tank that's a least a 180g tank. To have 7 of them in there is asking for a lot of trouble down the road. Aside from the physiologic stresses, groupers can get pretty aggressive and territorial. I don't think that a 125g tank will have enough room for all of them to set up comfortable territories, especially as they get larger.

For growth speed, I've seen panther groupers grow several inches in just a few months.

Now, while size of the tank is something that's going to become an issue, there's one thing that's already a big concern. You said that your nitrites are around 0.15. That means that your tank is probably still cycling. As I'm sure you know, fish waste produces ammonia, which is converted to nitrite, which is then converted to nitrate. These conversions are done by populations of bacteria. Ammonia is toxic to fish, nitrite more so. Nitrate can be toxic, but it has to get to VERY high levels to be dangerous to fish.

You said that you added the fish in Nov/Dec, which means they've all been in there 2-3 months at most. These are big fish that produce a lot of waste, and any one of them alone could cause an ammonia spike in an established system, but with adding 7 of them over such a short period of time, I think things are a little out of wack right now, and that's why you have the high nitrites. You added such a large bioload at once, and the tank is having trouble keeping up. To give a comparison, when we set up our last tank, it was set up with LR and we fed it to make sure everything was nice and cycled and established. We didn't add any fish for 5 months, and then we added two small clownfish. It was then another 4-5 months before we added anything else.
My bet would be that the effects of the high nitrites are why the groupers are getting parasites and scratching themselves.

Normally, I'm not a big fan of wet/dry filters, but since you're not interested in having a reef, it might not be a bad idea, since they are extremely efficient for processing ammonia and nitrites. You're also going to want to get a skimmer of some kind. The better the skimmer you get, the better it will be for your tank. With this much bioload, almost any skimmer will be hard pressed to keep up with things anyway.

But, even with that you're going to have to either make a huge upgrade in tank size, or you're going to have to start returning some of the fish (if you can). You say you have three miniata groupers, so I'd start with getting rid of two of them. If they're not already fighting, they will be soon. My bet would be that the same is true of the honeycomb, as most groupers will act this way, but I can't say that with as much certainty. As has been mentioned, that panther grouper is going to get big in a hurry. One problem that you may run into with this is that he will bully the others out of the way at feeding time, which means that he'll get more of the food, which means that his growth rate will increase even more, and the growth of the other fish will slow down. This creates a vicious little cycle, because he'll then get bigger faster, and can push the other fish around even more.

I should also say that my guess is that between the current nitrites, and what I'm sure will become fairly high nitrates, that anemone is not going to last very long.

HTH,
Dave

[EdKruzel]

You've been given some good advice, but I'll throw in my $.02 worth anyway.

Add some cultured bacteria to your tank as soon as possible. Live sand, bacterzyne, anything...

Then pick your favorite two fish and get rid of the rest.

Scratching is mostly from parasites; however on big aggressive fish as yours with tough hides I would guess it's from poor nutrition and poorer water conditions.

Forget the LFS frozen foods for the most parts. Go to your local grocery and purchase a varied selection of seafood. It will be more nutritious and cheaper than the prepared stuff. Chop it up just enough so they don't choke, but leave the shellfish and skins intact, they don't peel in the ocean. Purchase a good vitamin to soak the food with such as Selcon. Feed just enough to get that bulge showing in there stomach no more than three times a week.

The Panther will grow fastest, but the Honeycomb will get the widest girth.

For a FO, especially with large predators I find adding plenty of plants help keep the water in check. I use Razor, Blade, Padinas, and Red Grape. I have a little Feather as well but that hitch hiked its way in. Regular Grape (Racemosa) tends to go sexual to often and will crash.

Attached is a common Cherry Grouper, but since I have varied his diet and added the plants he has gone through an incredible color change. I wish I had a better quality photo.


Good Luck

[richardhk]

thank you for all your wise advise.

it really will be a difficult decision for me to get rid of any one of them. I will just have to cross my fingers and rely on the the hardiness of these grouper creatures. I am adding Cycle every week to add on to the bacteria considering the heavy bioload in such a short time. I change about 5% of the water ever y weekend. Maybe if these creatures were butterfly or angels, I would have rid any one of them, but being hardy groupers, I will
stick to them. My favorite is the panther, then the miniata. I find
the honeycomb, least attractive.They surely could eat . One honeycomb ate one dead swordtail(3 inches) and that made his belly really swell.

What I didnt tell any of you (for fear you will reprimand/criticize)
), I have been feeding them once or twice daily a variety of foods---live silversides, guppies, frozen brine shrimps, frozen mini shrimps, mussels, small clam meat. They also ate up several abalones. I or my kids often feed them two or three of the above combination whichever are available. So I believe poor nutrition is
the least possibility.

During the 1st two days of introduction ,the 3 miniata fought each other , biting each other 's gills, fins, etc.. ,but ended up in each other's arms occasionally during night/rest time.

At times, I would find two or three of the miniata lining up themselves swimming against the current of the powerhead.
Quite cute.

Everybody seemed to be accepting each other. Surprisingly, the
fish always hiding is the biggest one---the panther. However, he
tends to pick on any other fish who goes near his hideout. When he comes out to eat, he takes almost all of the shrimps. But the honeycomb, argus and miniata are the fastest in chasing the silversides. So I think everybody gets their fair share.

If anyone has any experiences, feel free to post them. Has anybody have experiences about Humphead Wrasses?

[EdKruzel]

Rich,
I guess we have a few more topics here. Criticism is harsh but for the good of your animals, not to poke fun, or appear superior.
We are all here to learn and share knowledge/experience.

The foods you mention are not good for your groupers.
Live silversides? are these freshwater fish? as the swordtails and guppies?

Freshwater fish do not have the fatty acid content required by salt water fish. It is the equivalent of feeding candy to your children for dinner.
Brine shrimp don't contain much in nutrition either, plus there mass does not fulfill the required size for tank busters..

Clams, mussel, mini shrimp are OK. Fresh fish, squid, shrimp from the deli would be much better. Don't peel or clean. The excess that we wouldn't eat ourselves is full of nutrition for your guest.

The reason for sparing feedings is their GPM, (Gill Beats Per Minute) Groupers are slow (20-30 GPM) like our heart beat. It is a good representative of the metabolism. In the wild they have to hunt food and that is there exercise. In a tank they pretty much become "couch potatoes".

With less activity and a slow metabolism, frequent feedings can lead to serious health conditions and a premature death.

Please heed the warnings you have been given here. Your guest will be much happier in the long run. Your scenarios is typical amongst new comers to the hobby. Your intentions are great, and I'm sure you want the best for your fish, but your set-up is not it.
When I lived in NY, I ran the Aquatic Rescue Center, Groupers and Lionfish were amongst our most common rescue. Believe me that's it's easier to find a good home for a 5-7'' grouper than one over a foot in length.

[Barracuda]

Richard

EdKruzel has provided some great additional infromation about fish health / feeding issues......

We Humans utilize "Starch" for the initial building block of metabolic engery -> where as -> Marine fish require a diet high in HUFA's (highly unsaturated fatty acids) to produce their metabolic energy for general life functions.

Generally, it is considered that FISH (vertebrates) are incapable of synthesizing these types of fatty acids, and must acquire this food - energy source during feeding.

FW Fish metabolism requires very minimal HUFA's as their main metabolic energy source, and therefore are VERY poor canidates for Marine fish food.

Also mentioned is the lethargic nature of groupers in captivity. Since you have juvenile fish, all acquired metabolic energy (food) is converted to body mass / growth. This rapid conversion of food energy into body mass without adequate use / buring of excess energy, the excess food is converted to fat / adipose tissue. it can get so bad it can hide the internal organs (when disected - viewing of the abdomen cavity) and resulting in distended stomachs.

Fat groupers maintained in captivity over a period of time, leads to unhealthy - diseased individuals from fat cells invading the liver, blood and cerbal functions.

Please, take this information as friendly criticism, as you asked for help in emails.

IF you really won't decrease the number of groupers or increase tank size (or can't at this moment), PLEASE try to reduce the feeding schedule for the fish.

You might want to limit feeding to once every other day or two. Groupers will not be harmed or starve from no food for one or two days.

Good luck with your "saltwater pigs" :)

[Wolverine]

Originally posted by richardhk
it really will be a difficult decision for me to get rid of any one of them. I will just have to cross my fingers and rely on the the hardiness of these grouper creatures. I am adding Cycle every week to add on to the bacteria considering the heavy bioload in such a short time. I change about 5% of the water ever y weekend. Maybe if these creatures were butterfly or angels, I would have rid any one of them, but being hardy groupers, I will
stick to them.

Yes, being hardy will make them more likely to live through the stresses to your system of heavy feedins, etc, but that's not your biggest problem in the long run. Being hardy will not help you here once they get really big and really aggressive. Most likely, even if they seem to be getting along well now, those miniata are going to tear each other to shreads, assuming they live long enough to do that. Also remember, being hardy is not the same as being immortal; each fish has its limits to what it can survive.

If these were butterflies or angels you would probably be in better shape, because they don't produce nearly the waste that groupers make, so your system would be much less stressed. Of course, I still wouldn't suggest doing that.

Originally posted by richardhk

At times, I would find two or three of the miniata lining up themselves swimming against the current of the powerhead.



Unfortunately, that can also be a sign of disease in fish, not just something that's cute to watch.

As EdKruzel mentioned, we see this sort of thing a lot in beginners. Many of us have made similar mistakes when we were starting. Overstocking and overfeeding are very common. I've seen many times that people have come in with situations like this, and they ask what to do. People will give advice like we are here, which includes letting you know that the tank is overstocked, and letting you know that you're in for trouble if you don't remove some of the fish and reduce feeding. That person will then ignore the advice, often getting mad that people are getting down on him, and everything has been fine for 'X' length of time, so he knows it's working. Then that person comes back a couple of months later and asks how to treat certain diseases, and then they come back a few weeks after that and ask what they did wrong that made all of the fish die. I've seen this scenario played out dozens of times (in person and on the internet).

From the feeding, aside from the fact that you're feeding too often for their needs, you have to consider what's mentioned above as to the nutritional quality of the food. If the panther is getting the shrimp, and the others are having to chase after their food (which is freshwater, and of poor nutritional quality), then that means that those other groupers are falling farther behind. You already have a situation where the panther grouper is going to continue to outdistance the rest, because he's getting more food, and he's getting better food. It would be like taking a bunch of athletes, and feeding the best one a full balanced meal, and making the others live on potatoe chips, then you tell the others that they have to keep up with the one to be able to get any food.

You also mentioned that the panther hides, but goes after fish that come too near his hideout. What you're going to find is that the range that qualifies as "his area" in the tank is going to get bigger and bigger, until it encompasses the whole thing.

And as EdKruzel mentioned, we don't say these things to get down on you; we say them because we want to let you know what's best for the animals and what's best for your long-term success.

Dave

[richardhk]

I appreciate everybody's precious time in sending advices to me---which is why I posted my "tips for groupers? " in the first place.
So feel free to give your comments.

Actually, I have recently reduced my feedings signficantly. Furthermore, I have transferred a Snooty Wrasse and Large Tomato clown from this Predators's Tank. Nitrites as I tested a few hours ago have dropped to ZERO !! Bravo, things are starting to work. This
may also partially be attributed to the fact that I have increased the frequency of my water change to 5% every day for the past five days.

Feedings are reduced to once daily, at lower dosages than before too. Actually, I dont feed them guppies, swordtails reguarly. The large swordtail I mentioned earlier was a dead
swordtail from my kid's tanks.That was the only one. Guppies
was only around once every month. But from now on, I will
refrain from the guppies. Silversides is also only around once
every month----just thought had to give them some exercise.

Regular feedings always include two size categories for fishes:
---mini shrimps used in making shrimp paste( abt half to one inch shrimps
---small shrimpts about one to two inches.

For two weeks per month, their diet would include:
---mini-clams
---mussels(which the panther loves most)

About once every month, I would give them abalones too,
which they just love !!!

The panther hides under my rockwork( bridges/ tunnels/multi-layered) and is not always the first totake food unless feedings is
done in the mornings. The miniata are the fastest to catch the first few shrimps. This awakens the "Crouching Dragon" and he
swims up to consume the latter part of the meal.

I think I will design my feeding to give more opportunities for the other groupers other than the panther.

I think my earlier feeding habits have largely been influenced
by some friends who have grouper culture for business and
they tell me how much trash fishes these groupers consume
everyday.

I am adding some more Live Rocks,and the porous RED Coral Skeleton and Live sand next month
after my return to a trip to the Philippines. This should help
further ,I hope.

Again, thanks for all your advices. If you have any other
experiences to share with me, please do post more threads.



By the way, what are the most common causes of deaths for
groupers?

[Wolverine]

With groupers being as hardy and robust as they are, old age should be the most common cause of death. Unfortunately, this is not the case. IME, the most common causes of death in groupers in aquaria are disease and attack from other fish. The first happens when water quality declines to the point beyond which even groupers can't stand. It's easy to see how this happens since many people with groupers get lots of big waste producers (including the grouper).

Death from other fish is related to the same cause. Often groupers are put into tanks with other big, aggressive fish. A grouper is powerful, but it's not always the most powerful in the tank, and sometimes they do get killed by other fish. I've found that triggers, lionfish, and other groupers are the most common guilty parties (they're also the most common to go into these tanks).

Dave

[Barracuda]

In the wild, some of the leading causes of death are bait / hook, net, food for larger predators & other groupers, and internal "gut" worms - ccestodes, digentic trematodes, nematodes, etc...

Of course this doesn't include old age, mutation or struggles during juvenile growth.

In the aquarium the mortality cycle is different as there are numerous causes that are intertwined, and difficult to actually tabulate the actual causes -> stress causes the inhibited gut worm population to overtake inhibition defense -> leading to neurological (swimming in circles / head out of water) damage -> death.

Some generalized causes include:

1) Malnutrition
2) Obescity
3) Water parameters
3) Gut worms
4) stress
5) aggression / dominance

Remember keep your water clean & HIGHLY oxygenated.
Minimal feedings of high quality foods.
Remove fish at first signs of stress / damage / disease

[richardhk]

Since last week , I have moved two miniatus and one peacock and honeycomb
grouper to another tank. My main tank now has the ff left:
1) One ( now grown to ) 7 inch Panther grouper
2) One 4 inch miniatus
3) One 4 inch Honeycomb grouper
4) One 3 inch Picasso Trigger
5) One 5 inch Coris Wrasse

Feedings have been reduced significantly ever since to once daily
or once every two days---but at dosage much lesser than before.
For example, while Panther eats about combined 6 to 8 pcs of
small clams / shrimps daily before, I feed only around the equivalent of 2-3 of them now to the Panther.

Three days ago after a 10 day out of town trip, I noticed some white salt like film on the groupers and some rust/red colored spots on their skin. I immy instituted 10% water change for three consecutive days and in effect have lowered
the spg to 1.013 and raised temperature to 84. Am I doing the
right thing? There were some scratching by the minatus and honeycomb, and once in a while, the Panther.

I have increased aeration and now has:
----3 airstones
----2 powerheads
----2 sets of Eheim sprinklers

I have sprinkled some garlic powder on the ir food before
feeding.

It is very difficult to catch the remaining groupers to a hospital aquarium due to the heavy rockwork. Appetite wise, they are
always like hungry pigs---but I control my feedings now.

Anybody who have experiences treating groupers diseases?
Pls share them with me. Do I still need to treat them with
say Fishvet's REVIVE? Was it ich or oodinum?

[Wolverine]

Well, you've made some moves in the right direction (reducing feedings, removing some fish), but now you've got some disease problems. I'd bet that the white spots are ich. The rust/red spots may be from wounds from the fish scraping on the rocks.

What are your other numbers now (ammonia, nitrite, etc)? Giving all the conditions of your tank will always help in a situation like this.

If your goal is for hyposalinity, I believe you have to go a little lower than that for it to be effective. Do a search for that topic, and you'll get some good advice. I don't want to write it out here, because there are people around here much more knowledgeable on that topic.

As for the temperature raise, what were you starting at? I would worry that a big increase in temp will only be an added stress on the fish.

The only time I treated a grouper with ich was a long time ago in a FO system, and I used copper (I think Coppersafe was the name of the treatment we used, but this was several years ago). I know nothing of Revive; I've never heard of it, so I can' t help you there.

As an aside, that yellow coris wrasse is basically full grown, and will likely become a meal for one of the groupers once they're big enough.

Dave

[Barracuda]

Richard

"Wolverine" has made some great suggestions, which I would follow..............here are a couple of additional comments.

1. Good work with reducing the fish populations
2. If you need to remove groupers - starve them for a day or so, then use a baited "barbless" fishing hook -> quick, painless, minimal damage, etc.
3. Hyposalinity - 1.009 to 1.011 is a good range. Maintain this for 3 weeks. Then increase to 1.1015 to 1.1018 and maintain this for the history of the tank - won't affect fish inhabitants / actually help with breathing / metabolism.
4. Garlic is mainly a "prophylatic" type treatment. Use either small diced,fresh garlic pieces stuffed into the grouper snacks or soak the snacks in liquid garlic extract.
5. A few more water changes - 15% every 4/5 days should help the situation.
6. Shouldn't even mention this, but, if you have tap water & the CHLORINE CONCENTRATION is minimal / moderate, a SMALL water change with untreated (NO CHLORINE IS REMOVED) water is actually beneficial.
6. Marine ich is not activated / triggered by increasing the water temperature - this does more harm then good in marine environments.
7. Lower temperature to 78 / 80 degrees.

Try the above treatments first. After 3 weeks with no changes then you could actually medicate the tank; but, this should be the last resort (IF the fish ARE REALLY INFECTED, then medication is the first / ONLY choice).

Good luck......keep us informed on there recovery.

Joe

[richardhk]

Thanks, Wolverine & Barracuda and EdKruzel, your tips have been very useful. After reducing the salinity to around 1.013, the colors of the
honeycomb and minatus have resumed to its dark color.
Everybody has resumed their hearty appetites, but under
controlled feeding conditions.

There is another problem now. Somebody is giving me
his Miniatus grouper of about 6 inches. However, when I went
totake a look at the fish at his aquarium, I found that it was
always hiding under the rocks, with clamped fins. His tail
and upper fins appeared to be "rotting" either by bacteria
or bitten . As I intend to add another aqarium( 95 gallons),
a free addition is tempting. But what remedies do you recommend
to heal the Miniatus? There was another spotted grouper of
around 3 inches when I visited , but I was told , it was wasted earlier today. Kindly give your precious advice again.

[Wolverine]

I'd say don't take the fish.

The damage to the fins and tail could be tail rot, which is a bacterial infection, or it could be damage from another fish. We'd need more information to know for sure.

You've gotten things under control, and potentially in a better balance for the tank. The last thing you want to do is add a sick fish to that mix. To me, if you do that, you're just begging to loose everything.

Now, even if the fish is just being picked on, then the fins will heal on their own in a healthy environment. But if you add this fish to your tank, he's going to get the crap beaten out of him long before he has any chance to heal at all. Since he's already weakened, he'd probably be killed by the fish you have in there with their territories all set up.

I know it's tempting to get a free fish, but I really advise that you pass on it.

Dave

[richardhk]

My good friend is asking how he can save his Miniatus as I decide not to lift the Poor Miniatus from him. I recommended
him to administer Melafix. Any experiences with Melafix?

[richardhk]

I think you are right, the Panther grows the fastest. My panther is now 7.75 inches long !!! and in such a period of time.

Do you guys hve any experience raising Panthers? I wish to know the longest size panthers can grow in an aquarium and in the wild.

How about Miniatus as well?

[Wolverine]

In the wild, the miniatus grouper can grow to about 18" (around 45 cm).
In the wild, the panther grouper can grow to about 28" (around 70 cm).

In captivity, the miniatus grouper can grow to about 18" (about 45 cm).
In captivity, the panther grouper can grow to about 28" (about 70 cm).

Dave

[richardhk]

Clarification,please....

I always thought that fishes in the wild could grow much bigger than fishes in captivity. Was it a typographical error, Mr. Wolverine?

[Barracuda]

Richard

In general, all captive maintained fish will grow much larger then their wild cousins.

Since the captive environment has reduced / removed numerous environmental factors.

Certain species will grow larger in the wild then captivity, but this is a species issue, i.e. Yellow Fin Tuna (review Japanese Aquaculture journals).

Captive fish will actually grow faster then their wild counterparts throughout the growth cycle - almost removing the natural growth lag periods of wild specimens.

Captives will have completely different cellular / blood chemistry due to dietary regime resulting in increased fat content, organ distension, and body morphology, which can be seen by comparing "Groupers", i.e. a captive serranidae [groupers] will have a disproportionately small head compared to body size / mass for its age vs a wild specimen [not just limited to sw fish or groupers].

Joe

[richardhk]

All of you are right. The Panther grouper grows the fastest.
It was just 20April, when it has grown to 7.75 inches. Yesterday,
I measure it and it was already 9.125 inc hes. A short period of
1 and a half months and it has grown by 1 3/8 inches!!!

He now lives with a 6 inch miniatus and a 5 inch yellow tang who
sucks the cynobacteria. Since the last sympthoms of white spots,
I have lowered the specific gravity to 1.012. Two weeks ago, I tried increasing it to 1.0145 gently and the next few days I noticed some scratching against the rocks. This has happened
for the second time. It seems that 1.012 is okay with them as they have hearty appetites. But whenever I attempt to revert
the salinity upwards, there are scratchings.

Is it okay, I maintain the salinity at 1.012 in the long ter m?
Nitrites and phosphates are zero.

[billsreef]

1.012 is slightly too high to eradicat ick. If your hydrometer is a good calibrated one or better yet a refractometer than you can take the salinity down to 1.009-1.010 for 3-4 weeks. This will prevent any ick from reproducing and thereby eliminate the ick from your tank. After that you can bring the salinity back up to normal and expect to have ick free fish ;)

[richardhk]

One thing nice a bout groupers is that they respond very
well to hyposalinity treatment.

[richardhk]

Mysterious Waste of Miniatus,Honeycomb Grouper and Picasso Trigger

My 9 month old aquarium houses :
---10 inch Panther grouper
---5 inch ****** Trigger
plus the ff fishes which died mysteriously for the past two weeks

---7 inch Miniatus Grouper
---5 inch Honeycomb Grouper
---3.5 inch Picasso Trigger

They have been swrmming together for at least 3 -5 , months.
However, for the past 3-4 weeks, we have noticed the ff:

1) Panther grouper chasing Miniatus occasionally
2) 5 in ****** trigger aggressively chasing Picasso
3) Miniatus and Panther chasing Honeycomb

Prior to their deaths,

1) Picasso still had that voracious appetite even before
the day before he was found lying on the sand w/ no
traces of wound or white spots or any fungal/viral disease.

2)Same as the Honeycomb grouper altho he was not
as aggressive in chasing food as several months before.
But he was still eating.

3) Same with Miniatus---but miniatus hides a lot behind
the protein skimmer and powerhead. Miniatus ' appetite
was just normal.

What could hv happened? The parameters are all okay,
Nitrites, zero, Ammonia, zero, Phosphate, zero, ph 8.p0,
Spec Gravity: 1.014.

Although the Panther has been eating most of the food
fed, all the above fishes still manage to eat good portion
of food ranging from shrimp heads to mini clams to mussels,
to mini shrimps to once a month silversides.

So were their deaths directly attributable tothe Pantehr's
aggressivenes? ? How? But no outward traces of
disease or wound nor loss in appetite even the day
before they were wasted. Pls give your ideas.

[richardhk]

Mysterious Waste of Miniatus,Honeycomb Grouper and Picasso Trigger

My 9 month old aquarium houses :
---10 inch Panther grouper
---5 inch ****** Trigger
plus the ff fishes which died mysteriously for the past two weeks

---7 inch Miniatus Grouper
---5 inch Honeycomb Grouper
---3.5 inch Picasso Trigger

They have been swrmming together for at least 3 -5 , months.
However, for the past 3-4 weeks, we have noticed the ff:

1) Panther grouper chasing Miniatus occasionally
2) 5 in ****** trigger aggressively chasing Picasso
3) Miniatus and Panther chasing Honeycomb

Prior to their deaths,

1) Picasso still had that voracious appetite even before
the day before he was found lying on the sand w/ no
traces of wound or white spots or any fungal/viral disease.

2)Same as the Honeycomb grouper altho he was not
as aggressive in chasing food as several months before.
But he was still eating.

3) Same with Miniatus---but miniatus hides a lot behind
the protein skimmer and powerhead. Miniatus ' appetite
was just normal.

What could hv happened? The parameters are all okay,
Nitrites, zero, Ammonia, zero, Phosphate, zero, ph 8.p0,
Spec Gravity: 1.014.

Although the Panther has been eating most of the food
fed, all the above fishes still manage to eat good portion
of food ranging from shrimp heads to mini clams to mussels,
to mini shrimps to once a month silversides.

So were their deaths directly attributable tothe Pantehr's
aggressivenes? ? How? But no outward traces of
disease or wound nor loss in appetite even the day
before they were wasted. Pls give your ideas.

[richardhk]

My 110 gallon aquarium has only two inhabitants left.
One
panther grouper that measures 11 inches and another
blue trigger measuring 6 inches. I am thinking of adding
two more inhabitants. Which of the following do you think
would be suitable?

1) Adult Emperor angel?
2) Adult 6 inches min. blue tang
3) Adult Harlequin ?Tusk Fish?
4) 6 inches minimum Miniatus?
5) 7 inches Birdmouth Wrasse?
6) 7 inches Napoleon wrasse

Would they be compatible with any of the above?

[richardhk]

My 120 gallon aquarium has only two inhabitants left.
One panther grouper that measures 11 inches and another
blue trigger measuring 6 inches. I am thinking of adding
two more inhabitants. Which of the following do you think
would be suitable?

1) Adult Emperor angel?
2) Adult 6 inches min. blue tang
3) Adult Harlequin ?Tusk Fish?
4) 6 inches minimum Miniatus?
5) 7 inches Birdmouth Wrasse?
6) 7 inches Napoleon wrasse

Would they be compatible with any of the above?

[miniatus2003]

I would be looking at what killed them first before I added any more fish. The tusk could handle any agression that come its way.
If the Pather is that agressive I would return him and get something else. JMHO.

Emperorangel:D

[richardhk]

Can I have the comments of Billsreef< Wolverine, Marini?

[richardhk]

Got this message from Ed Kruzel, so thought of posting it for the benefit of other Grouper Hobbyists:

The grouper is getting huge! I think I'd only put one more fish in if I was real tempted. By blue trigger, are you talking about a Niger, Fuscus, or Queen?

If anything besides a Niger Trigger than leave the tank as is; But for a Niger the Harlequin and the Bird Wrasse would make nice tankmates.
Tangs require too much swimming area when large. The Miniatus will take over a 120 and out grow it as well. Same being for the Emperor as they would require a 120 by themselves to really thrive.
A nice Radiata Lion, or Freckled Hawk (5''-7'') would also make nice guests.

Good Luck,
Ed