Feeling guilty about HLLE

[Anemone of the State]

I've heard, and seen pictures of, complete reversals. Feeding Selcon is a great idea. I think what tangs need most however is a continuous supply of algae (micro and macro) to graze on. If you can establish some in your aquarium, or grow some in another container and put it in regularly, that might help a lot. I've not bought any, but have heard good reports on "tang heavan" available from indopacific sea farms. Also, many people seem to think that stray voltages contribute to this condition, and the use of a grounding probe has been reported to help. I would have thought stray voltages wouldn't be a problem as long as you have no current, but this is what people report, so it is worth a try. You can buy them or just use a titanium bicyle spoke. Frequent partial water changes might help too. There is debate on whether this is caused by a virus or is just a degenerative condition, but it definitely is reversable and therefore not likely to be simply a product of aging. So far I haven't had to deal with this, so everything I am reporting is second-hand knowledge. Best of luck!

[ReefDad]

Thanks for the reply Anemone. My tank has at least five kinds of macro algae and several kinds of micro - the tang completely leaves it alone.

I also have the grounding probe and have verified that it does indeed drop the AC voltage levels to ground in tank. I also do 10% water changes almost every week.

The HLLE symptoms haven't gotten worse (or better) in over a year - so I'm wondering about the reversal rumors. Any first-hand experience out there?

I've thought about ordering the tang heaven before - maybe I should give it a try.

Tom

[Anemone of the State]

They show a picture of a complete reversal in the Marine Aquarium Problem Solver but don't give any more information. I think it was a sailfin tang if memory serves. I doubt they made it up. I am at a loss for what else to suggest. Hopefully someone else will have something more useful.

[newkie]

If you haven't tried it yet also supplement with Kent Zoe. I switch between Selcon and Zoe daily.

[badgers]

IME tangs don't just eat any macro/micro algea. They have preferences.
I have a brown ugly macro and a green rampant algea that they do not touch.
My yellow seems to love some stringy, hairy algea that I grow in my sump while my regal(hepatus) tang eats it also. I say love because I had three different types of tang heaven in the tank with this stringy algea. The regal ate only the tang heavens, but the yellow kind of rotated. My snails also loved my tang heaven, the dirty b**tards!
my point is that the types of algea you have may not be disirable for the yellow tang.try a different type of algea.
It is nice to have live algea sources for your tang because you can leave it in the tank untill it is all consumed. Live algea does not foul the water. :)


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I'm so skeptical, I can hardly believe it!
The facts, although interesting, are irrelevant

[Heinrich]

My cyanide caught rescued Regal allways devlopes HLLE when the tank runs out of algae. The best algae nutritionally and taste wise for fish is Gracillaria sps. Both the green and red varieties. Virtually no grazer refuses those. I have a hard time keeping any type of algae without it being devoured.
I can attest that even with large fish HLLE can be reversed. Mainly give a variety of foods, soak them boath in Selcon and in Zoe. Zoe is almost more helpful with HLLE if you feed a varied diet. Also try feeding Vibragro and Formula 2 frozen. Other things that benefit are adding immune boost and variety of frozen foods to the diet. Some people swear by carrot shavings which are hard to get the fish to eat and but are easily mixed into homw made foos.
I've so far gotten abotu 30 fish back from cases of HLLE. Some will show scars but amazing amounts of recovery. Make sure your SW mixes for at least 24hrs bbefore doing waterchanges, don't continously use carbon since this aggrevates the condition. Do some larger waterchanges to get ionic ballance back into wack if your heavily using removers such as carbon, resins, skimmer, etc.
I suggest doing the 24/7 Do a 25% waterchange daily for 5-7 days. Your reef will thank you so much you have no idea. Larger waterchanges have far greater impact than frequent smaller waterchanges.
Also sufficient feedings are important. I would feed at least 2-4 times a day with some nori in the tanks at all times. Try getting more species of macroalgae. The species best suited are Gracillaria, Ulva, Saragassum, tufs, brilloalgae, red bouble irridescent and O.K. is caulerpa.(I know my scientific nomenclature is lacking but I'm on the run and have no references at hand)
Mainly feed algae, algae and algae again. Gas helped and cured my fishes from regals both angel and tangs, Eperors, Annularis, Moorish Idols, Chevrons, Blueface......
93! Heinrich

[Yam]

Here is an article that covers how hlle was completely reversed.
http://198.190.226.3/users/michaelh/seascope/dietary.html

Danny

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http://www.ereefers.homepage.com

[ReefDad]

Wow - ask and ye shall receive!

Thanks guys! Carrots and broccoli! I'll give that a try first.

[ReefDad]

I have a large yellow tang that's been in my tank for over 2.5 years. He's grown very large >5", but after about the first year (because I didn't understand the "greens" dietary requirement) he developed some signs of HLLE - some tissue regression on both sides.

When I realized what was happening I started feeding nori and spirulina flakes generously with selcon - with some improvement. But now, a year and a half later the HLLE signs are still there. He's a beautiful healthy fish in all other respects. He loves the spirulina but has slacked off on the nori (using a clip suctioned to the side).

My question is whether this is normal for older larger tangs or can HLLE actually be reversed and completely healed?

TIA for your thoughts,
Tom

[billsreef]

I read that article several years ago and have duplicated those results several times over the years. The only case that the fish still had scar tissue was in a Purple Tang that I inherited from some one with such a bad case that I thought it was doomed. After several months it fully recovered with just some minor scar tissue in the areas of the worst damage.

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Bill

If damsels grew as big as sharks, the sharks would run in fear!
My dive photos (http://hometown.aol.com/billsreef/)
ICQ 56222784

[ReefDad]

Hey Bill (and others),
Thanks for relating your experience. I tried fresh broccoli last night and today - but Tango won't touch it. I think I've spoiled him with the spirulina flakes which he loves. Over the last six months he's ignored the nori too which he used to love.

The article said fresh broccoli - have you tried blanched (dipped in boiling water to soften) brocolli? Or could it be that the broccoli I tried isn't fresh enough?

I'll also try the zoe alternated with selcon on the spirulina flakes since that's what he likes.

Tom

[Anemone of the State]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by ReefDad:
Wow - ask and ye shall receive!

Thanks guys! Carrots and broccoli! I'll give that a try first.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I just read that too in Joyce Wilkerson's Clownfishes book. I hope it works. Best of luck.
I was going to suggest this but was too slow.

If the tang won't eat it, try soaking the food he likes in carrot and/or brocolli juice (grind the stuff in a blender).

[This message has been edited by anemone of the state (edited 05-04-2000).]

[Heinrich]

The juice isn't anywhere as good as the carrots or broccoli, also has to do with the amount of rouffage/fiber available. So best thing is to start getting some frozen foods and mix it in a blender, include some agar/ gelatin binder or you can add shrimp to naturally bind the food. Spirulina flake is actually not quite as good as a lot of people assume. It is one of the nutritionally poorest algaes available especially on HUFAs and vitamins. Better choices out there. Also mix in macroalgae or Kelp, etc in with the food. Remember that exposure to air even drying will generally oxidize a lot of vitamins so fresh and especially frozen foods are a good additions.
After the mix is mixed :) spread it on a plate and freeze again. Cut into small bite size cubes or grate with a cheese grater. Not a bad idea to add some spirulina flake as a filler. Good choices a spirulina formula and formula 1&2 flatpacks. He'll go for that. Start with lower dossages of veggies. but fresh not blanched else vitamins get lost.
Macroaalgae such as nutritionally great Gracillaria will do a better job than carrots IMO.

93! Heinrich

[ReefDad]

Thanks for the good info Hienrich - The fresh veggies looks like it will work after all - yesterday my tang ate about 1/2 of the fresh broccoli branch I put in for him!

I've been doing a purely meat version of the frozen food mix slab for the other inhabitants - I'll try a veggie version too.

Thanks alot - I really appreciate the help.

Tom

[Anemone of the State]

Please let us know if it works (I assume it will be a slow process, so it might be worth tanking a photograph for objective reference).

[Deacon]

To Larry: Would it be possible to archive this thread? There is some good info here. Thanks.

[JohnL]

Here is the text from the link referenced by Yam.

Dietary Control Of HLLE In Blue Tangs

By Steve Collins, Curator Indianapolis Zoo-Aquarium


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The occurrence of head and lateral line erosion, (HLLE) is a common problem with certain reef fish, particularly tangs and surgeonfish. We experienced and epidemic amoung our blue tang (Acanthurus coeruleus) population six years ago,(1989), in our 25,00 gallon reef exhibit here at the Indianapolis Zoo-Aquarium. Other surgeonfish were affected, but the angelfish in the exhibit were not.

Water quality was dismissed as a likely cause of the problem. Good water quality was maintained by a combination of use of sand filters, ozone, and periodic water exchanges with saltwater mixed from Instant Ocean sea salt. We do not use activated carbon. Normal nitrate levels were maintained in the range of 15 to 20 milligrams per liter ,(mg/l), Nitrate Nitrogen , (N03-N). pH averaged 8.25 and salinity was 32 parts per thousand, or a specific gravity of 1.023. At the onset of the HLLE, salinity was dropped to inhibit parasite reproduction, in case this was the cause. The erosion continued and salinity was eventually brought back up to 1.023.


In reviewing other possible causes for theis malady we next focused on possible dietary deficiencies, because no obvious pathogens were found. Our fish were receiving a varied diet including romaine lettuce and spinach. Initially we tried elevating the level of vitamin C by incorporating a supplement into a gelatin based food, but this had no effect. We next considered supplementing the level of vitamin A. According to the Applied Nutrition and Diet Therapy, page 852, "One of the most important functions of vitamin A is to maintain the integrity of the epithelial cells....As a result, surfaces of the skin and membranes lining all passages that open to the exterior of the body, as well as glands and their ducts, are susceptible to disease." This was the basis for trying increased amounts of vitamin A after the vitamin C supplement by itself failed to produce results. It was our feeling that the laining of the lateral line ducts had deteriorated.


We were concerned with the possible toxicity of high vitamin A levels that has been reported for certain animals. Upon reviewing the nutritional value of different types of lettuce, we found them to be very low in nutrients and began researching the nutritional value of other green vegetables. Spinach appeared to be higher than lettuce, but it does not hold up well in sea water. Carrots were found to be a good natural food, but they had to be shredded and were quite messy to feed. Still, we fed carrots solely for six to eight weeks and observed a resolution of the HLLE. A more complete literature review made broccoli an obvious choice. It is well balanced in many vitamins in addition to the high level of vitamin A, and also has other features that make it acceptable. It holds up very well in the aquarium. Many fish like the flowerettes when they are first added. Only the larger fish could break open the woody layer on the stalks, but once opened small fish feed on the softer pulp material. We replaced the carrots with broccoli, and we are currently using it as a well-balanced maintenance diet.


After replacing the lettuce diet with first carrots and then fresh broccoli, the HLLE improved to the extent that only a few scars remained on the most severely affected fish. After nearly eight years in the exhibit, most of the original batch of blue tangs are still alive. Broccoli, supplemented with peas and other prepared foods, dominates the diet. No HLLE sypmtoms are evident in any of the fish in the exhibit.


Reference: Burtis, G,J. Davis, and S Martin. 1998 Applied Nutrition and Diet Therapy. W. B. Saunders Co.

[Greg Hiller]

I have a purple tang that also developed a moderate case of HLLE about 20 months ago during a copper treatment. The lost tissue has been growing back, but the improvement has been very slow, and still not quite complete.

FWIW,

- Greg hiller