Kick Ich worked for me!!!

[AmandaJ]

I ordered the product Kick Ich (reef and invert safe) followed the simple instructions, and it worked great for me. Just thought you might want to know.

[hcs3]

hi amanda

keep a close eye on these fish. cryptocaryon has a complicated lifecycle, and actually confuses many hobbiest. it is natural for the cysts to drop off of the fish. infact, this is thier reproductive system kickin in gear. you may witness a reinfestation in about 7 - 10 days. many times, this is much worse than the original outbreak. you may wish to syphon off the rocks and substrate. this is where the cysts settle. good luck.

HTH

henry

[Biosystems]

Amanda:

Is the kick ick a capsacin containing product? If so heed hcs3's advice, b/c this would only cause the parasite to be sloughed off with the slime coat on the fish. Some also contain carbohydrates to get the ick to be somewhat dormant. The problem with all these homeopathic remedies (garlic, capsicin,sugar, etc) in a reef tank is that they simply do not kill the parasite, but prevent it from physically appearing on the host. Keep us up to date as I am interested in your long term results. Also if you get a chance, let us know the ingredients if they are printed.

Thanks,
Tim

[AmandaJ]

Hey thanks, Kick Ich is not a capsacin product. The active ingredient is 5-nitroimadazoles. Hope that helps.

[Biosystems]

Amanda:
Thanks for the information. Most imadazole compounds that I am familiar with are antihelmintics or kill some ectoparasites such as gill flukes, leeches, and insect larvae (Benzimidazoles, Probenzimidazoles, Imidazothiazoles,dimetridazole, l-beta hydroxyethyl-2-methyl-5-nitroimidazole). All of these are potent killers of intestinal worms, which makes me wonder if the product label cautions against its use in reef tanks that of course contain (worms, fan worms, etc. as well as crustaceans). Are there any warnings about possible problems with this product. I will look up more information when I get a chance, b/c I am very interested, but is there a web page for the product so I can see some product literature/claims. I hope by the end of the weekend that i will be familiar with the compound and its actions.

Thanks again for the information,
Tim

[This message has been edited by Biosystems (edited 11-05-1999).]

[AmandaJ]

My featherdusters are unscathed. Says safe for nitrosomas,nitrobacter and other aerobic bacteria. It is biodegradable and the prescribed treatments last 15 days. As far as i know there is no webpage but the company that makes it is called Ruby Reef.

[Biosystems]

Yeah Amanda,
It is interesting that they list "will not hurt aerobic bacteria such as nitrosom/bac", b/c I know that while derivatives of this drug will not affect aerobics or facultative anaerobes, they will completely destroy obligate anaerobes (many of which are important in deep sand beds and live rock for reduction of nitrate). Although many more of these organisms are facultative anaerobes so it shouldn't do too much damage to this process. It is very interesting-at least to me. Thanks for the information. I will do a few searches on it, b/c there seems to be alot of information lacking in my mind as to its effectiveness on ciliated protozoans (cyrpto) and dinoflagellates (oodinium).

Thanks again,
Tim

[AmandaJ]

The only thing it claims to stop is ich. wish I could help you more.

[Dianne]

Amanda,

Did you purchase this product online? If so, where? I need some!

Thanks,

Dianne

[AmandaJ]

northcoastmarines.com in the "New Products"
section. Good luck with the "battle". Notice
it is marines with an s.

[Dianne]

Many thanks, Amanda. I placed my order tonight and will keep everyone posted on my experence with this product also.

Dianne =:-)

[The Keeper]

I'm into my 2nd day of treatment with Kick Ick, so far so good. Day one I noticed that my purple tang and flame angel had spots..poured in little under double the directed dosage and now day two, no spots. I will continue to treat per directed, returning to the recommended dosage of 2oz per 20 gal. So far have not noticed anything different with the corals or shrooms, they still are expanding fully. Tank inverts consist of various leathers, elagance, mettalic brain, flower pot, plate coral, red shrooms, metallic shrooms, green hairy pink tipped shrooms, green button polyps, yellow polyps,

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Ahh the joys of reef keeping.
-Dave

www.geocities.com/reyner1/frontpage.html (http://www.geocities.com/reyner1/frontpage.html)

[youbetyourwrasse]

I have heard nothing but praise for this product on 4 other BB. It just seems too good to be true. I once was licensed by the State of California in Branch II and III of pest control, and what I know about chemicals is that small changes yield huge results. I never thought they'd have a real flea control product and then all of a sudden there's Advantage (R) and no more fleas, really. I hope I never need Kick Ich but boy, if I do I'll try it. Snake oil or cure? The feedback definatly suggests the latter. (Who know maybe 6 months after treatment all the fish explode, releasing some noxious gas into the atmosphere...)
Darlene.

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[RubyReef]

Hello everyone,

My name is Sam and I am the President of Ruby Reef. I thought it appropriate that I jump in here and take over reply duties from Amanda. But first, thanks Amanda for opening this thread. We love to hear success stories from hobbyists, and we appreciate your effort to share the news.


Tim (BioSciences),

I think we met at the Bakker trade show in Chicago about three years ago. Anyway, send me a telephone # (email: rubyreef@erols.com), I'll call you and we can talk shop. Kick-Ich is reef safe because it is extremely specific for ich. As such, it has no effect on other parasites such as dinoflagellates, flukes, bacteria or fungi. It is safe for all reef inverts including fan worms, etc., and does not affect biofiltration in any detectable way, including extremely sensitive electronic measurements taken by Carl DelFavero on FOWLR/LS tanks recieving megadosages over sustained periods.


Keeper,

Your "loading dose" approach to treatment isn't a bad idea. However, while the 2X dosage is safe for your tank, using more than 1.5X at one application under any circumstances is probably wasting your money. Let me know via this thread if you want more information about dosing regimens.


Dianne,

Ask Marc at North Coast Marines to send or fax you a tech memo (is there one in his on-line catalog?). Alternatively, send a fax number to our office at the above email address and we'll send you information. Call us at 301-622-3776 if you have any application questions for which you need quick answers.

Sam

[Biosystems]

Sam (Rubyreef):
This weekend I took a road trip around LA looking for corals and I found your product at an LFS. I appreciate your offer of talking shop, and may take you up on the offer. I am sure that we have not met as I have not been associated with the fish industry for some time except as a hobbiest. I also work only in human medicine, but have a little background in this area b/c my PhD was done in a Dept. of Vet. Micro. and Paras. I purchased some of your product as well as two crypto infected blue tangs (an all too often occurence in these parts) that I will confirm that the parasite is indeed crypto. I have begun treatment as per your instructions and will see how it goes. I have also begun looking into toxicity effects on worms, fans, and soft corals in a small seperate system with some extra corals that were recently propped, a red duster fire rock, some echinoderms, and a very productive LS bed. Although it will not be very scientific it will straighten a few things in my mind and that is what I am most interested in as a hobbiest. I must say that the product at the LFS was very reasonably priced, especially for the quantity that I received (it appears to be about a liter or 1.5 L although it is not labeled and it is much cheaper than replacing a fish). So I will see how it goes and then possibly set up a better trial at a later date if I am satisfied in my mind it is safe and may be effective-that is if I can find takers for all these much more healthy blue tangs.

The only question that I have for you at this point as I would rather do a few more searches before speaking with you is if it does not treat dinoflagellates and amyloodinium is a dinoflagellate that is all too often mis ID'd as ich (in this hobby any white spot is incorrectly ID'd as ich due to a cross over from the FW hobby) whether it be b/c their is a double infection (crypto/A. oodinium)in the animal or b/c the amyloodinium has spread from the gills, shouldn't the product literature be ID'd to treat only crypto infections. Probably a mute point since anyone that has A. oodinium infection most likely will lose the fish anyway within a couple of days no matter what type of treatment offered and before they can purchase your product.

Anyways thanks for the information and I will be looking forward to researching your product further in the scientific literature and in my non-scientific tanks.

Tim

[Larry M]

Well, great! This should be interesting. I congratulate everyone involved for keeping this discussion civil. This is a topic that can get out of hand fast, no one knows that better than me. :D

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Larry M

View a list of RC Member's websites at:
http://www.reefcentral.com/membersites.html

[hesaias]

This thread took a poor turn elsewhere, but this is the way to find out the low-down on new treatments for folks w\reeftanks who can't catch the fish.
I have not seen the product, but am interested in its ingredents(sp). Having used Sano with both ends of the spectrum as far as results go I am sorta curious as to the q-tank apps of this product as a way to easily rid new fish of Ich. Not a shortcut, just some extra insurance


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hesaias

my homepage (http://www.angelfire.com/on2/hesaias/index.html)

[RubyReef]

Tim,

You are exactly right about the labelling oversight. In fact, earlier today I entered a post on another BB that covered the ich + amyloodinia scenerio in a paragraph dedicated to the drawbacks of a highly specific water treatment. We will correct this oversight, i.e., add a warning panel, at the next printing. We will probably also include information that Kick-Ich and another Ruby Reef water treatment, i.e., Rally, can be used together safely in a reef tank to provide blanket protection. Rally is effective for controlling dinoflagellates, flukes and bacterial fin rot. Rally can reverse Amyloodinia symptoms in as little as a few hours if you get it in the tank before the gills are destroyed.

Hesaias,

I have to run right now, but I'll come back later and give you the scoop on Q-tank regimens. A number of importers routinely use Kick-Ich and/or Rally in Q-tanks and, by request, we are now supplying Rally to Asian and S. American export stations where it is added directly to packing bags.

Later,
Sam

[Biosystems]

Larry and hesaias:

I too saw the post on the other board and the direction it turned. If anyone has taken my comments as an attack that is not at all my intention. My intentions with disease are quite simple-to determine the cause and the possible cures that have the least amount of side effects as possible. If the best means to that end is a commercial source, then you must applaud that company for coming up with that product and support their efforts by purchasing it.

Hesaias: Amanda listed the active ingredients exactly as they are listed on the bottle. They have left off the exact compounds included and gave a general description 5-nitroimadazoles most likely with emphasis on the "s" meaning it contains several nitroimadazole compounds. I do not want to get into what may be in it as the company has I am sure invested their time and dollars in the product and if it does work should reap the benifits of their efforts. As I said in the previous post, it is not very expensive even from the LFS where I bought it at $30 for a very large bottle (1-1.5L) and as such they are not trying to rip the dollars out of the consumers pocket. If my estimate of volume is correct (they do not list the total volume on the container I purchased)then the bottle will be able to treat a 100 gallon true volume tank as per their instructions of 4 treatments 2 times. But hopefully Ruby reef will tell me the exact volume of their product that I have since I do not want to pour it out to find out.

Amanda: I hope that you understand that I was not trying to grill you if that was your perception, but was interested in the topic as I am sure everyone else is. I like others from the other board would have liked to know more aboout your tank conditions when you treated, but if you do not know, you do not know. I personally would not be satisfied with your results no matter what you said unless I tried it myself. I do however applaud you for bringing to our attention your success with a product. I hope that soon Larry will be able to do a so you want to know about crypto thread that will encompass all the treatments that we have collectively come up with.

[Larry M]

No need to wait for Larry, anyone can start a "So you want to...." thread. :) I purposely laid off them for a while as it seemed like people were tiring of so many in a row. But, maybe the time is right for this one. Be my guest, anyone.


------------------
Larry M

View a list of RC Member's websites at:
http://www.reefcentral.com/membersites.html

[Doug1]

Larry and everyone, I just want to say this is a prime example of why the BB are here. The exchange of info that will hopefully advance the hobby and cut through the hype were all faced with, Ive said it before and I'll say it again this is where I come to learn when I don't know the answer. You guys have done a superb job in the short time you've been up, congrats and thanks

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I reefed,so I spent,it would have been cheaper to do it right the first time.........Doug@thereeftank

[elvisdoc]

Ruby Reef,
I would be interested in dosing regimens you and others are using for Kick Ich. Ordered it today and will give it a try...sounds promising.

What regimen/protocol are you using with Kick Ich when introducing a new fish to the tank, as prophylaxis?

Also, is there anybody using it for monthly single dose prophylaxis just to avoid this problem in the future? Or could this potentially set up resistance to the antibiotic?

Thanks.

elvis

[FOX]

Just an observation on my part, but I think that wether Kick Ich or anything else actually does work on crypto. we're still always going to have people say this product worked for me, or this one didn't work for me, because very few people in this hobby can correctly ID a disease. As Biosystems said, every time someone sees a disease, it's automatically ich.

FOX

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members.xoom.com/KoryFox/index.htm (http://members.xoom.com/KoryFox/index.htm)

[RubyReef]

Hello again!

Phil and Amanda,
I like this board! I have had it bookmarked
for at least a couple of months, but I don't think I ever opened a thread and read it. However Amanda, after you suggested I check this board out in two different emails ... well I took your advice and I must again say "Thanks!". This morning I opened a few random threads and, frankly, assessed them more for spirit and tone than content. Seems from my admittedly small random sampling that most of the contributors on this board are interested in sharing information or solving problems. Hooray! By Larry's grace I'll be posting here regularly. Thanks Larry for extending Ruby Reef the privelege of posting here. I appreciate that its a touchy issue letting a company on board, but I assure you we will strive to stay in line.

As soon as I have some time I'm going to start a thread entitled something like "The persistance of active and latent ich infestations". However, below is a cut and paste job from a post I entered elsewhere. It addresses some of the questions raised in this thread. I'll come back again later to address those no addressed below. We would appreciate your comments, remarks and reactions as the issues discussed below will impact impending label changes.

1. DRAWBACKS OF HIGHLY SPECIFIC ACTION.
Kick-Ich is reef safe because it is specific for ich. As such it affords no protection against other parasites including dinoflagellates, flukes, bacteria or fungi. When, for example, fish pass quickly from trans-Pacific packing bags to hobbyists' reefs without an intervening quarantine period (the typical mistake of the eager newbie), the recipient tanks often become infected with ich, but may also become infected with one or more other parasites. The most common "second" parasite is the lethally dangerous dinoflagellate Amyloodinia. Amyloodinia can exhibit as smallish white spots (usually a lot of them), and other manifest symptoms can easily be lost in the background of an active ich infestation. When Amyloodinia infestations are missed and only ich is addressed, i.e., with Kick-Ich, lethal dinoflagellate blooms can occur. To address this we intend to add an appropriate warning panel to the instruction label, and we may provide information that Kick-Ich and Rally can be safely used together in a reef tank to provide blanket protection. Finally, we are pressing as hard as possible to get the FACE water tests out of the pipeline and into the hobby arena, thus providing the means for definitive disease identification.
REEF CENTRAL NOTE: As explained elsewhere, Ruby Reef is developing FACE format water tests (Fast, Accurate, Cheap and Easy) that can detect water borne factors that are specific to various parasites. Tests in the pipeline most pertinent to the marine hobby are Crypto, Amyloodinia and Brooklynella.

2. DRAWBACKS OF A MINIMAL DOSING REGIMEN.
The dosing regimen recommended on the Kick-Ich label is, by design, minimal and simplistic (2.0 ozs/25gals/days 1, 4, 7...). Kick-Ich is expensive to manufacture, package and ship. A priori, it is expensive to the end user. Therefore we wanted to minimize cash outlay by hobbyists by minimizing requisite product consumption. Further, we knew as surely as the instructions are printed in English that (a) intrepid hobbyists and professionals would use at least twice the recommended dosage, and/or various users wouldn't account for factors such as water displacement by LR. Finally, we didn't want to introduce the product with a confusing array of dosing schemes based, for example, on whether or not a protein skimmer will be used during treatment of the tank.

From a combination of in-house testing, beta-site tests and two years of test marketing we knew that the dosage regimen printed on the current label is effective in at least 90% - 95% of applications if protein skimmers are turned off, but that the dosing regimen had to be accelerated to as high as twice the average daily dosage (3.0 ozs/25 gals/days 1, 3, 5 ... = 2x $$$)to accomodate certain protein skimmers. Some protein skimmers (depending on make, model, air/water flow rates, bioload, etc.) significantly increase the rate of degradation of Kick-Ich's active ingredients as a matter of process, and/or others, especially Berlin type skimmers working against a heavy bioload, tend to sequester the active compounds in the accumulated scum.

As we only had one protein skimmer related water chemistry problem in each of two years of test marketing, and given the desire to minimize consumption both for the sake of economy as well as 25+ years of cultivated sensibilities regarding good housekeeping practices, a decision was taken to list only the minimal dosage regimen on our first labels. We have subsequently included a paranthetical comment that the dosage regimen can be accelerated by 50% (2.0 ozs/25 gals/days 1, 3, 5 ...). Ironically, persistant cases usually occur in tanks that have a large excess in biofiltration capacity: in such cases the microbial degradation rate of the active compounds can be high enough that little or no protection is afforded 48 - 60 hours after a 2.0 0z/25 gals dose, and so the dosing frequency has to be increased as described above.

During our just completed first year of active national marketing, we encountered perhaps 5 or 6 confirmed water chemistry problems related to lack of skimmer function. This has caused us to be concerned that a lethally dangerous situation might develop if the protein skimmer is turned off in a tank with already precarious water chemistry and a heavy bioload. Heinrich's post [NOTE: seen elsewhere] alluded to this with his astute observation that there can be problems in tanks with near maximal bioloads (I will respond directly to Heinrich in a subsequent post). With this consideration in mind we are considering listing the fully accelerated dosage regimen on the instruction panel.

An important consideration in this regard:
We are comfortable that the fully accelerated dosage regimen is reef safe. We applied it for 30 consecutive days (skimmers off) across an integrated system that contained pure and mixed reefs, FOWRLs, FOs and inverts only tanks without deleterious effects. One beta site investigator who really wanted to be convinced of Kick-Ich's safety added inverts to a FOWLR, turned off the protein skimmer and added 4.0 ozs/25 gals every 18 hours for several days! No adverse effects were observed, nor was there any detectable perturbation of steady state levels of ammonia, nitrite and nitrate. Finally, a large public aquarium (I don't have permission to use the name) has successfully used the fully accelerated regimen (skimmers on) on a 10,000+ gal reef display with no adverse effects on corals or other inverts. However, we have never systematically tested for safety, nor are we considering any such tests at this time, at dosages of 6.0 ozs/25 gals or higher, and so we don't know what will happen when one of those intrepid, double-the-recommended-dose hobbyists or professionals try it.

[RubyReef]

LARRY,

Are you familiar with the Bugs Bunny expression "MAROON", as in moron. Well, at Ruby Reef we have several levels of maroonery, ranging from "Maroon of the day" awards to custom tee shirts. I think I just cinched today's maroon award, seeing as how your name isn't Phil.

Opps! Sorry.
Sam

[Larry M]

Sam--I'm glad you like the board. As I mentioned before any commercial enterprise is welcome to post here as long as it doesn't turn into solicitation, and providing said business avoids bashing all other alternatives. So far you are abiding by the rules, I think. ;) You certainly have my attention. It's a fine line to be drawn. I want to encourage new options while staying grounded in reality. Personally, I tend to be a pretty skeptical person, especially in this area as we all know that "reef-safe" treatment methods have come and gone. But the only way this hobby advances is if people try new things. And a reef safe treatment alternative is something desperately needed, IMO.

I'm not familiar with maroonery per se, but I have worn the moron title well from time to time. :D

Very interesting thread, folks.

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Larry M

View a list of RC Member's websites at:
http://www.reefcentral.com/membersites.html

[ChuckV]

Rubyreef, what is the shelf life of your products (kick ich and rally)? I was wondering for those of us who like to have medicine on hand in case we do get an infestation.

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Regards,
Chuck

[Larry M]

BTW, concerning Biosystems hint about a "So you want to..." crypto thread, I've done better than that. I created an entire archive for disease treatment. Feel free to make recommendations for inclusion in the archive as time goes on.


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Larry M

View a list of RC Member's websites at:
http://www.reefcentral.com/membersites.html

[RubyReef]

Hello,

Just posting answers to a couple of questions. But first...

Amanda,
Saw your Xmas wish. You are a funny one. Must add, however, that probably no one feels worse than me about that "other thread". I hope each day finds you feeling a little better.

Hesaias,

I'll share with you a snapshop of the range of Q-tank regimens adapted by importers and maintenance pros. Generally, importers start with a loading dose of 3.0 - 4.0 ozs/25 gals in a Q-tank, which generally are FO or FOWLR: some stop right there if there were no symptoms to begin with, while others continue up to the entire 15 day regimen regardless of whether symtoms were ever present. Maintanence pros add two doses on days 1 and 3, or on days 1 and 4, at 2.0 - 3.0 ozs/25 gals every time they add fish to a reef tank, and that is generally adequate to prevent outbreaks. One fellow was routinely using prophylactic doses of 4.0ozs/25 gals in reef tanks and I discouraged the practice (doesn't mean he's following the advice). Another had been continually dosing a particular tank with an accelerated regimen (skimmer on) for months(!!) so that he could add a fish every two weeks. I discouraged that practice too.

What many importers are finding most successful is the combined use of Kick-Ich and Rally. Together they afford protection from a variety of ills including ich, dinos, gill and skin flukes, and bacterial fin rot. We also have reports that Rally is helpful in controlling trematodes that attack the eyes. I should mention that a number of importers routinely use Rally alone for Q-tank and prophylactic applications and only treat for ich if they see symptoms.

Chuck V,

Kick-Ich should be stable for about a year if stored in the dark at room temperature. NEVER STORE KICK-ICH IN THE 'FRIG or similarly cool/cold places. Some of the active ingredients may precipitate out of solution. Before we began test marketing Kick-Ich we conducted six months of rigorous stability testing: samples from independent production lots were stored in various locales including laboratory, kitchen and garage cabinets. No detectable degradation was observed in any sample after six months. We recently passed the one year mark on archive samples from Ruby Reef production lots and have observed no degradation.

Later,
Sam