The Tank of Death

[BraveHeart]

Hello Reefers,

This is my first visit to this BB, so I'll have to appologize in advance if I make any blunders in form or content. A friend saw a post that I made on another board and suggested that I post it here as well:

I’ve had nothing but problems with my 75 gal ever since I set it up a year ago. I’ve invested heavily in good equipment (sump, protein skimmer, vho lighting, etc.) but had little or no luck. I’m so sick of "major water changes" I could puke. Algae out the kazoo and dying critters (even killed my damsels in July). Button polyps and zoanthids clamp down within hours of introduction. Snails typically only last about a month. I have to dose with kalk and buffer like crazy to keep the pH above 8. I’ve got about 100 lbs. of live rock and have never really detected any ammonia, nitrite, or nitrate. Just had the tank tested for copper, and that was negative, too. I use RO water for my weekly water changes (even though my LFS says that most reefers in this area get by with tap water) and only have one little clownfish who acts like he’s starving every night when I feed him his two flakes.

I had to move the tank in September, and at the advice of my LFS, I jerked out my plenum and most of my coarse crushed coral. I thoroughly washed the remaining reef sand/live sand and added a couple of bags of oolite sand when I set the tank back up. I then added about 10 pounds of new, nice looking live sand with lots of cool critters (e.g., about 20 or 30 spaghetti worms). That gave me a total sand depth of 2.5 to 3 inches.

The tank seemed to be doing ok until I noticed some dark gray spots forming down inside the sand bed about three weeks ago. Shortly thereafter, the spaghetti worms pulled themselves out of the sand, rolled around on top for awhile, then simply disappeared. The dark spots have grown until about 75% of the bed is discolored. I’ve got a nice dinoflagellate bloom, now. And, there’s been a significant increase in green gunk skimmed out by my Turbofloater. I pulled a tablespoon sample from three different places in the bed yesterday morning to look for life and found nothing. That really surprised me because I have tons of bristle worms up in the rock work and there were lots of them in the sand bed when I moved the tank. What I did find was the smell of rotten eggs which leads me to believe that the bed is now nothing more than a big sewer of hydrogen sulfide.

This is basically my second failure at establishing a sand bed. The plenum-based system that I had for the first 6 months was a lifeless sewer as well, even though I seeded it with nearly 30 pounds of live sand. I'm really worried that there is some sort of toxin that's precluding any life below the bed line and most life above. My LFS is suggesting that I may have to dump my bed and try for sand bed # 3.

Questions:

The bristle worms up in my rocks were originally introduced in some live sand when I first set the tank up. Why have they abandoned the bed?

I thought you bought live sand to "seed" the bed and create a little eco-system of detrivores. Why did my spaghetti worms die?

What's killing my snails (astrea, trochus, margarita, turbos, etc.)?

What are the odds that some sort of poison continues to exist in the LR? Am I likely to continue to fail unless I discard all the LR and the sand bed and start over from scratch?

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BraveHeart

[npaden]

Braveheart, lots of possiblities here, but maybe some others can help as well. One thing I didn't notice in your description was water movement. You mentioned the sump and the skimmer, do you have any other pumps/powerheads just moving the water around? Also do you have a tight glass top? The low ph makes it sound like you aren't getting a good gas exchange which is very important. This could also possibly be affected by the room that the tank is in, if it is open or a stuffy back room. Snails are affected by changes in salinity and need to be acclimatized very slowly (several hours). You may want to stop dosing Kalk for a while and see if you can get your ph back in line. It doesn't sound like you have any big calcium users anyway and waterchanges should keep calcium up fairly well. Are you sure about the dinofagellate bloom or could it be plain old diatoms? Do you have any hermits or brittle stars to run around on the sand and keep things stirred up? Just a bunch of questions that may help others figure out what is wrong. Patience is a very important asset in this hobby. FWIW, Nathan



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Visit my homepage at padens.homepage.com (http://padens.homepage.com)

[Scooby Doo]

Have you considered adding a sand stirrer such as a goby? I'm sure the constant stirring of sand would prevent H2S pockets from forming.

Dave

[BraveHeart]

Nathan,

Thanks for the reply. Here's a little more info:

I'm running a Little Giant 4-MDQX-SC pump that I have to keep throttled back a little bit so that my overflow can handle it. Besides that, I have two Hagen 402 powerheads and an Emporer 400 for carbon and a Poly filter.

The top of my tank is open and the whole system is in our family room in the basement. That allows me to keep the temperature very stable. I'd like to keep it at 80, or so, but I've got it down to 77 right now to keep the algae at bay. I get about 1 gallon of evaporation, daily.

I have been acclimating the snails, but only for 30 minutes, or so. They just seem to slowly loose their grip on life after a few weeks.

I've only been dosing with Kalk for about a month, now. My pH problems were just as bad, if not a little worse, before that. As a matter of fact, I've always had a pH problem. It's like the tank is an acid factory.

Some of the algae in my tank looks a lot like the dinoflagellates shown in the photo on pg. 436 of The Reef Aquarium vol. 2. It's kind of wierd because it will sometimes spin off a single, hair-like thread that can be several inches long. On Thursday, I had 30 or 40 of these threads waving around in the tank. My LFS is also calling this stuff dinoflagellates. He says he doesn't see any diatoms in my tank.

I have six blue-legged hermits that have survived since October. Before that, this tank killed 25 scarlets and several other blue legs. I also have a Sally Lightfoot that has been in the tank for about a month and a pistol shrimp that's been there for less than a week. We also tried to add a Bar Goby to get some sand stirring action last Monday, but it's been MIA since then and I fear the tank has taken another casualty. I had a green-star polyp, some brown polyps, and a plug of zoanthids in the tank, but I pulled them yesterday and took them back to the LFS -- I figured they had gone through enough misery. Some of them haven't been open for months.

Oops. Forgot to mention that I have 15 to 20 Nassarius snails that have managed to survive down in the sand for the last month. They don't seem to be as affected by whatever it is that's whacking my other snails.

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BraveHeart

[This message has been edited by BraveHeart (edited 12-12-1999).]

[Larry M]

Hey Braveheart--Welcome to the board.
When you say "major" water changes, how much and how often? where did you get the live rock? Are there any artificial decorations, or metal components in the tank?
Over the past two years I've seen situations like this appear on message boards, the "tank of death" as you call it. Makes a person want to go look at the tank and how a person maintains it and see if something obvious isn't amiss.
It might help if you post basic parameters like salinity, ph morning and night, and alkalinity.
Good luck,


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Larry M

My Personal Site, Northern Reef (http://www.homestead.com/larry_reef/index.html)

[BraveHeart]

Larry,

Thanks for the warm welcome. Maybe this will be a good place to hang out.

When I say "major" water change, I'm talking 40 or 50 gallons. I've probably averaged at least one of these per month for the last 8 months. They've been at the advice of others in response to algae blooms, death of fish, or just trying to get the polyps opened up. The last change like this was a week ago, today. No positive effects -- just an ensuing algae bloom. Other than that, I try to change 5 to 10 gallons every week or two.

Nope, there isn't anything as obvious as a metal decoration in the tank. I wish it were that simple. I got the rock from an aquarist who moved back east. She ran a fish and anemone system with little or no sand bed. It looked pretty good when she had it. She did indicate that she had experienced a bad bout with ich, but she claimed to have tried nothing stronger than Coral Vital to correct it (unsuccessfully). As I understand it, she got the rock from Flying Fish about three years ago.

I try to keep the salinity at 1.024. I've been using a couple of teaspoons of Superbuffer dKH daily and replacing all of my evaporation with kalkwasser to try and keep the pH and alk at acceptable levels. I typically see a pH of about 8, or just a smidge above, before the lights come on, and a pH of something less than 8.1 by evening. My last test for alk showed 3.5 meq/L and that's the highest I've ever seen it. If I stopped dosing, I bet the alk would be below 2.0 and the pH would be down to 7.8 in less than a week.

Hey, I'd be more than happy to have you stop by. I'm only about 1,500 miles west of you. Seriously, my LFS is really a pretty successful reefer who has started up a little side business for a few extra bucks. I'd give my left arm for his worst tank. He's been here on three different occassions, and if anything were obvious, I think he'd be right on it.

[Larry M]

Well, I really didn't think it was anything too simple but when dealing with people you don't know you have to start somewhere. Does the lfs guy have a theory? I find it hard to believe the sand bed is causing the problem. A ph range of 7.8 to 8.1 is not the end of the world, all four of my tanks run continuously in that range, with a dkh of 6 or 7. Yeah, I went through wishing they were higher too, but the animals are happy and growing so I gave up worrying about it.

Problem algae like you describe is not unusual for a new tank, and basically when you pulled the plenum and replaced the sand bed you started over again.

Dark or colored spots in the sand bed are no big deal, and it can take over a year for a bed to really be "live".

The kicker is the animals keep dying. Needless to say, that shouldn't be happening. How much do you feed? Are you adding the animals gradually so as not to overload your young bio-filter?

This is the advantage of having more than one tank, IMO. I have gone through periods with one tank when I could have pulled my hair out of my head. Having success with one of the others kept me in the hobby, not to mention a place to put my animals.

But I'm sure you're not interested in setting up another tank right now. ;)

I don't know, maybe someone else will have the magic answer.
Good luck,

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Larry M

My Personal Site, Northern Reef (http://www.homestead.com/larry_reef/index.html)



[This message has been edited by Larry M (edited 12-12-1999).]

[jimhobbs]

How much organic material were you adding to the tank from the time of adding the spaghetti worms till now?...In your first post you mentioned the "two flakes" fed to a clownfish daily...The posibility of a "dead" and decomposing sandbed, from lack of nutrient, might need to be considered...Just a thought...Jim

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Tank at: members.xoom.com/jimhobbs/reefstats.htm (http://members.xoom.com/jimhobbs/reefstats.htm)

[Larry M]

Oh, I missed the "two flakes" part. That is a thought, if you added a bunch of sandbed critters and didn't feed much it could have contributed to the problem.

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Larry M

My Personal Site, Northern Reef (http://www.homestead.com/larry_reef/index.html)

[BraveHeart]

Larry,

I really appreciate your words of encouragement and no, I'm not the least bit interested in setting up another problem right now -- I haven't paid for this one, yet.

I give my single little clown the equivalent of 2 or 3 thumb-tack-head-sized flakes each evening. About two weeks ago I showed this to my LFS and he was concerned that the amount wasn't enough to keep the bed alive, so he suggested that I also drop in 4 to 6 BB-sized sinking pellets every other night, or so. The crabs and Nassarius snails come to life when those pellets hit! Is this too much?

The tank move in September was a pretty big event. I had to move it about 250 miles about a month before I could move. After the move, I had all of my critters at a pet hotel (a friend's tank) for about a month. I had another friend top off the tank and add a pinch of food occasionally until I could move. I put the clown, a flower anemone, two or three polyp rocks, 10 trochus, 6 astrea, 2 margarita, 3 turbo, 6 blue legs, 20 nassarius, and a partride in a pear tree in the tank at the same time I added the live sand. A couple of weeks later, I added the Sally Lightfoot. It was another month before I tried to add the pistol shrimp and goby. Is this too fast?

I guess the good thing that I'm hearing is that you may not agree with any more dramatic moves (e.g., replacing the sandbed). It sounds like you may just be recommending that I be patient and not feed any more sacrifices to the tank. Is there anything I can do to help things along?



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BraveHeart

[Chad]

Wow, lack of food could be this issue. Realistically, I believe we all have the ability to feed our tanks more than we think. The live sand and the other critters need food just like the clown. I think frozen brine shrimp is always a good addition to a tank. Almost every fish will eat it, as well as the shrimp and crabs, and finally, enough will fall to the sand to feed it also. IMO, decaying food is just like decaying fish poop, it goes through the cycle just like everything else. If your tank is mature enough to handle it without a spike, than no problem. You've got a big tank, you don't need to worry about a few extra pellets or some flakes. Just don't let it build up.


Hee, Hee, I said poop.

[Larry M]

Boy, I sure am talking like I know what I'm doing here. I keep hoping someone else will bail me out. :D
So the sand bed you have now is mostly fine-grained sand? If so, I wouldn't remove it.
No, I don't think you are feeding too much. Here is an archive with some good, specific info about feeding your tank.
http://www.reefcentral.com/ubb/Archives/Archive-000001/HTML/19991126-1-000503.html

I would only caution that new tanks probably are not going to need to be fed quite as much since they don't harbor the life that a tank of a year old or more does.

I also don't think you added animals too fast. Crabs and snails are a minor consideration, IME, to the bio-load. The only catch may have been the "live" sand, if it was cured or not.

If it were my tank, I would test all the water parameters I could think of, and have the results confirmed by someone else with a different test kit. (Like your lfs guy)
I wouldn't add any more corals or fish to the tank for a month or more.
I would keep up with your regular water changes, and might consider this instead of one huge change to get rid of any possible pollutants in your tank: 4 or 5 30% changes spaced 2 or 3 days apart. I know, it sounds like a pain. But it might be good insurance.
I would put in some good carbon (like Black Diamond) and also put in a Poly-filter, paying attention to whether it is changing to a wierd color which would indicate a pollutant.
I would also clean the skimmer cup and neck often, like every two or three days to ensure it is working at full capacity.
Then, just hang in there--time is on your side. :)
Good luck,

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Larry M

My Personal Site, Northern Reef (http://www.homestead.com/larry_reef/index.html)

[Doug1]

Sound like starving sandbed could be on track though I'm getting alarm bells from algae blooms after major water change. Are you using Reverse Osmomsis and or DeIonized water. Have you tested the source water and post filtration water before adding Kalk. If your water used to make up SW are high in nutrients, heavy metals or other contaminants large water changes may be aggravating the problem.
Also when you removed plenum it most likely caused major disruption in sand bed. Die off of infauna can lead to hydrogen sulfide formation you think may be occuring. If thats the case it may recover slowly like Larry said esp if reseeded with sand dwelling animals. Stirring it will only make the problem worse I think. The other choice that comes to mind is to siphon out and clean the sand, then reinstall and reseed. Hopefully someone else will examine the logic here and comment as appropriate, HTH

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I reefed,so I spent,it would have been cheaper to do it right the first time.........Doug@thereeftank
moderator

[DWL]

I see your alk. reading looks ok but dont you guys think adding 2 spoons of buffer per day could cause major fluctuations in the tank. I have seen people wipe out part of a tank trying to do this.
Also think Doug is on the correct line about disturbing the sand bed.
Doug

[Rinaldi]

Hang in there Braveheart!

My sense is that you have a few different things going on and probably not one explanation will suffice. I'll only specifically comment below on the algae problem, but I will encourage PATIENCE and to take things real slow from here on out. You have had some major dramatic changes to your system in the last few months. I would encourage you to avoid such dramatic changes.
(plenum removal, adding alot of live sand (cured?), adding alot of life at one time, major water changes, major buffer additions, etc.)

I sympathize with your dinoflagellate problem, since recently I have had similar algae troubles. There have been a few recent posts from others suffering from this also. See recent "Snot algae" post. Page 436 of TRA vol II looks alot like what I have also, though I also think I have diatoms as well. One similarity we share with this curse is relatively recent plenum removals (Sept.), which we may now be paying the price for now since our sand beds were disrupted. I also have a relatively dead aragonite 4" sand bed.
With respect to the dino removal, I have been improving my situation with increased skimming (upgrade to Turboflotor), kalk dosing, directly siphoning out the algae, and a shorter photo period.

Again go slow. IMO 40-50 gallon water changes all at once is too much for a 75 gallon tank. Instead siphon the algae with a narrow ended siphon (better suction). 5 gallons a day might be okay,, but not 40-50 at one time. I'll leave it to the experts, but can't adding too much buffer fast be dangerous?

Your other problems are more baffling, but I wish you the best.

- Also, TRA vol I talks about snails rolling over dead when eating dino. Mine are often upside down and although still alive, look like the sick. A couple days later they seem to revive and move on.

[Reef Junkie]

BraveHeart,
Welcome, how are you? I give you this much. You seem to know what you're talking about. I guess going through disaster and obsessing over it gets you thoroughly trained. My stab in the dark...
A couple of people hit on it already, but I'll go with the Hydrogen Sulfide formation. It's deadly stuff. I don't think your Sand bed was the cause, but do think it may be harbouring it.You mentioned you have 4, I believe, inputs for water circulation, right? You might want to try and actually increase the circulation in your tank. Redirecting the flow so it sends water down towards the sand bed. This, of course, will help gas exchange and will slowly get rid of the Hydrogen Sulfide. You could also try rearranging your rockwork so it has more open areas for water to flow in and out. A good piece of equipment would be a wave maker. That's if you have any dough left!
Anyhow, your sand bed might not have died from lack of food, but most of it would die off. The die off would actually supply food to the sand bed. Hydrogen Sulfide would kill off your sand bed, though.
The main reason I'm harping on Hydrogen Sulfide is because you mentioned the rotten eggs smell. I'm almost convinced this is your problem, but without being there I couldn't say for sure. Keep us updated.
Later,
Bill


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http://www.homestead.com/reefjunkie/highenergy.html

[Scooby Doo]

Braveheart,

Again I'll suggest getting a sand stirring to keep your sand from getting too stagnant.

Here is a site to check out in regards to keeping live sand beds.
http://sites.netscape.net/douglxyzzy/sandbed.html

Cheers.

Dave

[BraveHeart]

Wow, my hat is off to all of you. Your responses have been terrific.

Larry: I've been using Black Diamond carbon and changing it every 3 weeks, or so. I've also been running a poly filter for about 3 weeks. It's about the color of the green gunk in my skimmer. Thanks for the pointer to the feeding thread.

Rinaldi: On the surface, it appears that you and I might have the same tank. Odd that we both jerked our plenums at about the same time and are now having similar problems with dinos. There must be some correlation. I don't have TRA vol. 1, but I do have snails that behave as you suggest. They "play dead" for long periods of time (sometimes days). Then, I find them on the other side of the tank. Eventually, though, the dinos must finally cause them to croak.

Again, thanks for all of your suggestions.

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BraveHeart

[Larry M]

Braveheart--FWIW, I just happen to have a Poyfilter here, and the card that comes with it says it turns green if removing ammonia. (I've used polyfilters several times, never had it turn green. Usually a dingy brown.)
Which would explain a lot. I would say get a new ammonia kit and check it again.

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Larry M

My Personal Site, Northern Reef (http://www.homestead.com/larry_reef/index.html)



[This message has been edited by Larry M (edited 12-12-1999).]

[BraveHeart]

Larry,

Sure won't hurt to get a new kit and double-check. But, the green on my pad looks and smells like particles of algae that have broken free and gotten sucked into the power filter. If I rinse it a little (not sure I'm supposed to do that) it turns back to white.

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BraveHeart

[FOX]

Braveheart,

One other thing to consider. How long are you letting the new saltwater mix before you do your water changes? You should let it mix(with a powerhead) for at least 24 hours before you add it to the tank. I would also test the ro water you say you're getting. It sounds to me like the ro unit may be exhausted if your getting blooms every time you do a water change.

FOX

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angelfire.com/ak3/korysreef.htm (http://www.angelfire.com/ak3/korysreef/)

[Targus]

This may sound kinda stupid but doesn't the liverock need some kind of food? If the tank is as bare as you say and your not feeding it much at all, won't the rock and sand just slowly die off?
Iv'e only been reefing for about a year but I feed my tank a lot, twice a day and it works very well for me. That turbofloter is an amazing skimmer and I'm sure it would pull out most of the leftover food with no problem. As stupid as it may seem, it sounds like the tank may need a lot more food, smaller waterchanges, some caulepra, and maybe a new membrane for the ro unit.
Just a thought.
Mike

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See my tank at http://www.homestead.com/reefcentral/targus.html

[BraveHeart]

FOX & Targus: I always let the Instant Ocean mix up for a day or two before changing water. And, my RO unit is less than a month old. Before that, I was purchasing DI water. Now I'll admit that the quality of the water source could be a problem, but I kind of doubt it. I don't get an algae bloom every time I change, just this last time. And the reason for doing that big change was a worsening dino problem. I don't think the change caused the bloom to get worse -- I think the bloom was imminent and the change had little or no effect on things.

The more I'm hearing here and based on some other factors that are lining up (e.g. algae problem worse down next to the bed) I'm starting to get the picture of an algae bloom driven by nutrients released by a dying, starving sand bed.

I'm going to try the following:

1. Since I have no photosynthetic critters in the tank at this point in time, I'm going lights out for a few days to knock the algae down.

2. Cleanup as much as I can with a series of water changes.

3. Reintroduce sand bed critters with good live sand, detrivore kits, etc.

4. Diversify the types of feed I use and not be nearly so miserly.

If all of this fails, then I'll contemplate an FO system until I save enough pennies to start over.

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BraveHeart

[Wolverine]

Braveheart, that's probably a good course to start with for now.
If you can, I would say to get a Magnum 350 cartridge for the tank. They're not very good if you want to run one full time, but they can make all the difference in the world when you're trying to clean your tank. What I've always done is start the magnum when I start cleaning the tank. As I stir stuff up, and scrape it off the walls and rocks, it'll get pulled right in. I've learned that no matter how careful I try to be cleaning up, there's always a lot of loose stuff that I miss. Anyway, it can be really helpful when cleaning up algae blooms especially.

As a warning though, when you're cleaning, be careful not to stir too much around those dark spots in the sand, since, if one of those pops out into the open it could easily kill off everything pretty much right away (I'm assuming that it's hydrogen sulfide, as many above are). I agree with the others that you should get some more circulation down around the bottom of the tank to help slowly clear that stuff out.

Good luck,
Dave

[Larry M]

Hey--Sounds like a good plan, be sure to let us know how it turns out!


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Larry M

My Personal Site, Northern Reef (http://www.homestead.com/larry_reef/index.html)

[Larry M]

Braveheart--I was going to archive this thread, but thought I would ask you how things are going first.


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Larry M

See my tanks at Northern Reef (http://www.reefcentral.com/northernreef/index.htm)

[BraveHeart]

Hi Larry,

Sigh…

I wish I could report a success story that would make everyone warm and fuzzy, but I’m having a little trouble finding silver linings in the clouds as of late. I try not to spend too much time peering into the root of my frustrations – it just simply depresses me.

I posted a thread on December 30th ( http://www.reefcentral.com/ubb/Forum1/HTML/001042.html ) about the progress made at that time on the plan of recovery I had outlined for my tank. All seemed to be going well, save the death of a bucket full of spaghetti worms introduced with the new live sand, and so on January 4th I fetched my plug of Zoanthids from its vacation at the Hilton. Unfortunately, the poor thing clamped down within a couple of days and hasn’t opened since. I’m relatively certain that water quality is to blame, but I have no idea what parameter is out of kilter or what to do about it. This mystery has been one of the constants for several months, now.

Another mystery involves the death of all herbivorous snails that I introduce to the tank. The last of my batch of 20 purchased in October has now expired. Additionally, I added 3 more Astrea and 2 Trochus on the 4th and they’re either very well hidden, or they too have moved on to snail heaven. And yes, I took great pains to acclimate them. Interestingly, many of my Nassarius snails seem to be doing just fine. I’m wondering if the strain of micro algae I’m raising is either a) toxic to, or b) unpalatable to snails (e.g., they are starving).

There are two things that do seem to be doing relatively well in the tank – all the crustaceans (Sally Lightfoot, Pistol Shrimp, Emerald Crabs, and hermits) and algae. No, not my Calerpa. That’s fading away. Just the olive-green fuzzy crap. I have no idea what kind, but I’m guessing that at least part of it is diatom based. Some of this phlegm is approaching 2 inches in length where sufficient light is available. Oh, and BTW, I’ve been running with just 2 NO bulbs for over two weeks now – my IceCap 660 has not returned from repair, yet. I’m afraid that when I do get them back on, I’ll have the algae bloom to end all algae blooms. The overall theme of my tank is now dingy brown – not purple. It’s pretty hard to keep a stiff upper lip.

Finally, its hard to be certain because I haven’t attempted any official critter counts, but the infauna in the sand bed appears to be diminishing again. I can’t imagine how this could be, as I believe that I’m feeding copious amounts to the system. So much, in fact, that my hermits are so fat and lazy that they don’t bother to move around the tank. They just seem to sit on the sand bed and wait for the next main course. I turn off all the pumps for an hour or more when I feed, and still see a lot of food down in the sump the next morning.

I think I remember Dr. Ron saying something to the effect of "nothing happens quickly in this hobby, except death". I’ve sworn patience and will make no more dramatic moves until summer. It is really difficult for me to tell which direction my tank is headed – toward or further away from equilibrium -- because everything moves very slowly. Maybe that’s the silver lining. As bad as I think it looks, and as much as I want it to be as beautiful as what I see posted here, there has been no crash.

Bryan

[Larry M]

Sorry to hear about your continued troubles. That first year can be a real pain. Hopefully things will improve.

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Larry M

See my tanks at Northern Reef (http://www.reefcentral.com/northernreef/index.htm)

[tdwyatt]

Bryan, that is really discouraging to have all this going on for so long, maybe it is time to think of the unusual stuff, if the sinple answers don't work. I don't know about where you live, but here the water department will test your water if you have a well and tell you exactly what you have in the sample. Maybe it is time to test the water from the tank for EVERYTHING... Prolly won't hurt to send a sample of your water that you add to your saltmix/kalk powder, too. Man, I hope this helps you out some... Good luck has got to happen soon!

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Tom <"{{{{>(
(TDWyatt)
Wise men talk because they have something to say; fools, because they have to say something. -Plato

[fishpoo]

sorry to hear all this. lets look at it one step at a time. yanking the plenum hurt the tank. gray areas in sand not good. first i would have a few containers around and a lot of time. fill the containers with your tank water and fresh mix and remove all the lr and coral and fish. get the sand out of there! get rid of the remaining water and start fresh. i use a plenum but you don't have too. 4" of sand on the bottom of the tank will give you the benefits. 3" of aragonite or whatever and 1" live sand. put your rocks back in, water pumps for water movement, skimmer and water and you're ready to go. keep the skimmer going and use a sump or hangon filter for activated carbon. that's it. i believe your bio filter went out of whack for what reason i don't know. but don't give up. it just takes time. the fact that polyfilter turned green is an indication the ammonia is there and the biofilter is not working properly. when you yank a plenum and then use the same sand, many different microbes are in there. some need a lot of oxygen and some can live on very little. those that live on very little are deep in the sand bed. you brought those up when you removed the plenum (gray spots).



[This message has been edited by fishpoo (edited 01-27-2000).]

[FishWish]

Braveheart, Just curious here, what is your current Sal. level and how have you verified it? plastic hydrometer, refractometer or what?. This is an often overlooked parameter which escapes our attention.
I sincerely doubt the Hydrogen sulfide theory here as your condition has continued for to long a period of time.hang in there Brother..we're all here for ya...David

[tdwyatt]

btw, if you suspect your hydrometer (swing orm or glass hrdrometer type) test distilled water with it. whatever difference you read from 1.000 will be consistant throughout the scale, use this as a correction factor in determining your sg/salinity.

[rshimek]

Hi Bryan,

You know in my original discussion with Kim about your tank, I suspected that something had poisoned it and the live rock and that there was residual poison in the system. I keep defaulting back to that thought. I am beginning to be convinced that either your tank, your live rock or maybe your house is contaminated. The animals and that are surviving are the hardiest of the hardy. Everything especially sensitive to poisons is dying.

Your system should be well on the way to recovery now. Discount the comments about yanking plenums etc. These systems are normally very resilient and recover rapidly - if they can. The color changes in the polyfilter are interesting, but don't necessarily imply ammonia - just that there is a some sort of contaminant.

At this stage, if I were you, I would probably throw up my hands in disgust, and...basically nuke the tank.

It appears you have a choice, you may keep watching it. I would cut back a bit on the food, seeing some the next morning in the sump is not too good. But basically watch and wait. Give it about a month, if nothing gets better - then maybe it WON'T get better, and it is time to cut your losses.

If it starts to get better, then all is well.

If not, ditch the live rock. Clean all materials out of the tank, and decontaminate it.

The following procedure was used in a bioassay lab I once supervised, and it WILL remove all toxic contamination. It is dangerous, but only mildly so.

Move the tank outside or to a well ventilated room. A car port or covered deck is best.

Put a plastic tarp down, spills are dangerous. Wear old clothes. Lock up wife, kids and pets. Invite in-laws over to help.

Wash the tank well with normal fresh water. At this stage you can even soap it down good (yes! I know, contrary to all dogma).
Then fill the tank with muriatic acid at 1:5 dilution (remember add acid TO water, NEVER the other way around). By 1:5 dilution, I mean 1 gallon of conc. muriatic (from hardware or pool supply stores ) to fresh water. After the tank is full (to the brim). Drop in a couple of powerful powerheads (the acid bath won't hurt them) and let 'em rip. Let them go for about 4 hours.

Neutralize the acid - use baking soda - it may take a lot 20 lbs or so.... Keep the power heads going. Drain the tank. After neutralization it is full of carbonated salty water and is safe for all septic or sewage systems.

Rinse the tank thorougly and complete (keep the power heads ripping), 10 (really) times. Use fresh water. DI is best but tap will do. NO soap.

At this point, the tank is clean of mineral contamination (metals, etc., too, but may yet have nasty organics in it).

Get a few clean cloths, and using acetone, (don't smoke unless you want a very brief exciting experience) and wipe down the entire inside of the tank. Wear a respirator if necessary. Be especially careful to get the seams. Let the tank dry.

Now fill the tank with bleach and water, 1:5 again. Drop in the power heads and let them rip. Let 'em go for about 2 hours. At the end of this time, neutralize the bleach with a lot of dechlorinizer, and empty it.

Rinse 10 times.

At the end of the 10th rinse (don't skimp), your tank will be clean of organic and metal contaminations unless they are coming in with your tap water.

Go have a few beers...

Re- set up the tank over the next few days - with new live rock.

Maybe this is good advice, maybe not. But it will assure you that all contaminants are out of the system.

Cheers, Ron

[goby]

hey,

I just skimmed over most of this, so forgive me if I am redundant, but could it possibly be an oxygen thing? I am curiuos... would you try something for me?

Take a sample of your water, and test it for ph...write it down, now take that water OUTSIDE and airrate it for a while with a small airpump/airstone. Retest it.. what is the ph? write it down.. now bring the water back in the house and next to the tank, and airrate, retest it, write it down...

I would be really interested in knowing why you seem to have this pH problem and that it is possibly caused my lack of oxygen.. you say that it is in your basement...arent they all solid concrete block? there is basically no natural airflow down there is there? does it have ventilation? even though your tank top is not covered, and you are churning the water with your pumps, you may just not have the oxygen necessary to keep these things going... (that would possibly explain the rapid increase in your hydrogen sulfide in the sand bed from lack of oxygen)

hope it helps, and sorry that you are having such problems :( look on the bright side, when you lick this problem, there will be just about nothing that you cannot defeat in your reef ;)

g
o
b
y


------------------
The quest ( and the questions) continues...
www.iag.net/~vigg (http://www.iag.net/~vigg)

[Steve Richardson]

This looks like a tough one.
I latched onto something you said earlier:

"I use RO Water"
...
"major" water change, I'm talking 40 or 50 gallons. I've probably averaged at least one of these per month for the last 8 months"
...
"No positive effects -- just an ensuing algae bloom"

You have a bad RO membrane that is letting something like iron through? Also, is this straight RO water or do you have a DI cartridge too?

also...do your 'ensuing' algea blooms always seem to follow the large water change? (again, thats why I say possibly iron.. it will feed algea, and kill snails. Even rusty impeller shafts)

shot in the dark...

-Steve




[This message has been edited by Steve Richardson (edited 01-27-2000).]

[Snailman]

Sorry to hear about all of your problems. I know a fellow that had a tank that went a lot like this and he had his water tested and it turned out that it had pesticides in it. His home and well were on the edge of a fruit orchard and all the stuff that they had sprayed over the years had leached into the water. I am not sugesting that you have this problem. I am just trying to show how bizare a problem like this can be. You have to be a real detective and check everything under the sun. You said that you had an open top on your tank. Do you spray anything in the area of the tank like Windex, air freashiner, bug spray, floor wax, hair spray, Lysol, bug bomb, Pam or anything else that I did not think of. Good luck and I hope that I sparked something that will help.

[Heinrich]

I agree with Ron,
You might be encountering what Martin Moe described as Toxic Tank Syndrome.
I've only encountered it three times in my life. Once in the store and twice in other peoples tanks. Thats in 8+ years. Three working in a LFS and 1.5 having my own maintenance company. This is super rare. Something in the range of one in 20,000 or less. My thoughts on the matter are this. There is some type of bacteria or virus that has somehow managed to really establish itself well in your system. Especially since you keep fairly nutrient poor conditions to the extent of starving your tank. When you got the LS I imagine there was a large amount of dieoff because of lack of food. There is probably a strong coating of phosphorus on the sandgrains from the plenumn and then a good deal of dead matter. Simply the bacteria or whatever it is, is producing some sort of toxin. Or is itself toxic when ingested or inhaled by organisms. That's the general danger with relying too much on bacteria for nutrient cycling.
If I were you I would ask a fellow aquarist or even the aquarium club if you can lend a UV. If it is just bacteria then this might help. But most likely you will need to do a complete tank teardown. This phenomenon has been only observed by me when people either added rock or LS. Two of the cases and the one in the store the Livesand was the prebagged stuff.
Before you get the tank torn down I would get up the lighting and then add some more types of Caulerpa and other algaes. Tehy can help compete for the organics in the system. I would also do one complete waterchange and remove the clown and any organisms. This way the potentially freefloating organism that might have chemical compounds to prevent the establishment of baallance in your system will have the same starting chance as other life. Strong light and more food will certenly help give the other organisms a chance to also establish themselves and compete with the troubler.
Remove the carbon sincce running carbon 24/7 really destroys caulerpa and other algaes, by taking away some types of nutrients. Also use tap water, with dechlorinator. There have been reports of RO/DI units that developed toxic or dangerous bacterial colonies. Although I'm not sure it would be a problem. By using the tapwater that seems fine for other reefers, you add some extra nutrients but this would be good for algaes such as caulerpa to establish. Also limit protein skimming to at night. This way the algaes can start taking up whatever nutrients there are. I might get some nice LR from a LFS with lots of algae to give the system another boost of life and then feed. Yes you might get an algaebloom, but you can remove that and other higher species will slowly establish. I feed about 1.25oz of dryweight of food to my system a day. This is a 110 with 40g sump and two 50G refugia. That's much for most people but more food will ensure biodiversity much more likely. After you get the lights borrow a UV and get some algae.
From my experiences what your describing is similar to the RTN infections that not only infect corals but then fish and inverts and even humans, possibly.
Hope this helps. Good look. Sometimes you just need to start up anew. If you use Rons method of complete sterilization don't forget to also really clean all the equipment and replace the tubing, etc.
93! Heinrich

[Staceon]

More questions:

Do you spray anything in the room? Do you have any pets? Do you have children near the tank? How do you clean the outside of the glass? What is the sump made out of? How long did the previous owner use the live rock?

[BraveHeart]

Thanks everyone. Here's my responses to your thoughts and recommendations.

Tom: I use Boise city water. I know this water source works for other reefs in the area, including all those at GARF. If I've had bad water, it was probably back in Pocatello during the first 6 months of the tank's life.

David: I just use a cheap, plastic hydrometer. But, it has been cross-checked against a refractometer.

goby: My basement has regular, painted walls, carpet, and windows. It's heated with the same forced air system that supplies the upstairs. We spend more time down in our family room than any other room in the house. The tank sets in the game room, next to our pool table. It is a basement, but it's no dungeon. I'm a little skeptical about your oxygen theory. With my skimmer and heavy circulation, the thousands of "micro" air bubbles in the water column are actually a little distracting. Even so, I'll perform your proposed experiment and let you know how it turns out.

Staceon: Answers in the order of your questions: No, Yes (a small terrier), sometimes (are kids toxic to reefs?), with a clean cloth and tap water, acrylic, 3 years, Yes (every two or three weeks), Yes (at least the bottle says "Black Diamond Premium Activated Carbon"), Yes.

Steve: I've used four different sources of water (tapwater, purchased RO, purchased DI, and since Thanksgiving, my own RO) in two different cities that are 250 miles apart. The tank's problems have been relatively constant through these variable water sources. Algae blooms have not correlated to water changes.

Heinrich: Sounds like what you are describing is pretty exotic. I doubt that my situation is this special. I suspect that Mr. Dummy here screwed up and introduced a heavy metal or toxin months ago -- probably in the water where I used to live.

Dr. Ron,

Well, I was afraid that this decision was drawing near. In fact, I proposed a "do over" to Kim in early December. He talked me into another remedial attempt. I suspected that it was a long shot, but didn’t feel that I had much to lose by trying.

I'm going to try and stall for awhile and keep the tank going. It's not that I think that things might turn around. I would just rather work on this when spring warms things up a bit. In the meantime, I'll take your advice and drink lots of beer.

Thanks for all your help,
Bryan

[Staceon]

A couple more: you said you use carbon, are you still and are you changing it? Are you sure it is carbon?

[Staceon]

Ok I came up with another one. Is the tank grounded?

Sorry for all the questions, but there has to be a solution.

[goby]

Bryan,

I did not mean to suggest that your house was a dungeon!! quite the contrary, it has a reef, how could it be ;) There are several people that post bot here and at AL that have had this problem with their reefs. Some of them even have their tanks in the living room. It seems that some houses are just built very "tightly". The lack of oxygen in the air that you breath is not going to kill you, and things will be fine for you forever, it's the tank, however, that suffers. I am not saying that this is your problem, just something to check into. Anyways, the bubbles in your skimmer, etc, are just air bubbles. this is not to say that they are super saturated with oxygen. The only way to ensure that would be to use an oxygen bottle and to dose it straight into the tank. Besides, it is a quick and easy test ;) that might end up being your answer...

Just trying to help!

g
o
b
y


------------------
The quest ( and the questions) continues...
www.iag.net/~vigg (http://www.iag.net/~vigg)

[Staceon]

The reason I asked about children is because they have been known to put things into a tank, for example pennies.

One last thing, could there be anything toxic on your hands or arms when you put them into the tank?

[Larry M]

geez, there's a thought. What a bummer--tear down a tank and find a penny stash in one corner.

------------------
Larry M

See my tanks at Northern Reef (http://www.reefcentral.com/northernreef/index.htm)

[BraveHeart]

goby,

I performed your pH experiment during the lunch hour today. The results were:

pH Inside : 7.98
pH aerated outside : 7.98
pH aerated inside : 8.00

Staceon & Larry,

You're right. It would be tragically ironic to find that a 1 cent mistake ended up causing several hundred dollars worth of damage and many months of wasted effort. My LFS actually proposed the "penny theory" some time back. Short of tearing the tank completely down and sifting the sand bed (which I'll probably end up doing anyway) I don't know of any way to determine whether this could be the root of my problems.

In reality, I doubt that I will ever know what caused this failure.

Bryan

[Joez]

I think to qualify as a dungeon, it must be damp and contain women in chains.

I think you'll wind up tearing it down and starting over. If I were faced with your situation, I would do one of these things:

1. Tear down and start completely over. Problem is, I don't know if there is something in the tank material (acrylic/glass) that is harboring poison. I saw a description about super-cleaning the tank; I would just buy another if I couldn't eliminate the impregnated poison possibility. I'm not saying that's what you should do, I'm saying that's one of the things I'd think of doing.

2. Give it a little more time, but while living through this probationary period, I'd start a completely separate, new 20g tank. Go through all the setup and satisfy myself that it is only the 75 that is sick. Gain a little experience and confidence.

3. Throw in the towel completely. This solution bugs me though because I'd never know what went wrong or how successful I could have been.

My two cents.

[ClearWater]

If only patience was required then Braveheart you more than qualify.

Are you sure the carbon you are using is phosphate free? Please double check.

Good luck.

[downdeep]

i have heard of poly filters being contaminated. is the poly your using old? have you got any new stuff?