Alkalinity Level Q's - Increasing and Saturation

[Rampage]

Sorry in advance for the length.

In the past I've posted Q's regarding why I can't get good Coraline growth with good parameters.

I just finished a book (The Marine Aquarium handbook by Goldstein) which makes reference to some factors I did not previously know:

1. that alkalinity is more important to coraline growth than calcium and
2. that alkalinity has a saturation point where it becomes useless to keep using additives.

The book does not go into why or how to resolve the problem.

I have been using B-Ionic 2 part and have a calcium level around 460 but my alkalinity is around 2.5 and won't go up. PH is around 8.3.
I've noticed that when using the alk part of B-Ionic, instead of dissapating quickly (as in the past), the solution coagulates into strands that eventually dissolve -just not right away.

I concluded that I've reached my saturation point.

I'm looking for some comments on this and if accurate, does anyone know how to remedy the situation and get my Alkalinity up.

Also, what test kits are best for an accurate reading of alk.

I'm thinking of dosing with magnesium to help with the alkalinty in accordance with some info I read but which did not provide an explantion as to the synertgistic relationship between alk and magesium.

Thanks in advance.

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[Rampage]

Thanks Fox but I already started doing just that ie, stopped adding the calcium and have been adding just the alk part in the morning. Calc is staying preety constant needing an increase about once per week. Alk just won't move (nor the coraline growth). I'm going to try a different test kit today to verify readings.

Do you have any suggestions ?

Thanks.

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[FOX]

I'd defenitely try a new kit. Salifert and Lamotte seem to be the most recomended. Which one are you currently using.

FOX

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angelfire.com/ak3/korysreef.htm (http://www.angelfire.com/ak3/korysreef/)

[DougL]

Rampage;

A couple of comments, for whatever its worth.

If you have reached the Calcium / Magnesium / alkalinity / pH saturation point, I would recommend putting away any
supplements for a time.

Your alkalinity is at or above NSW levels.
Your calcium is above NSW levels.
My guess is that you have depleted your Magnesium, but not drastically.

My understanding is that coralline uses both magnesium and calcium in their matrix.

I would do a series of water changes (10% ea.) over the next couple of weeks, without any additives. After that, see where
you are with the test kit.

I have a feeling this could help.

Good Luck;

DougL

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http://sites.netscape.net/douglxyzzy

[Rampage]

Fox, I am (was) using a Red Sea kit. Will pick up a Salifert or Seachem today.

Doug L,

Although my most recent reading didn't go into any detail, they indicated excactly what your talking about regarding Magnesium. I never tested for it (and don't know if we can) but I will back off the calc/alk dosing and do alittle magesium dosing and see the results.

As an FYI, except for the little coraline growth, everything in the tank has been doing very well. My leather recently closed up for about a week and hasn't opened back up but has done this before over the last 1.5 yrs and it's probably coincidental.

Thanks for the advice -it's been helpful.

More Q's would be 1. Do you know of any reading re Alkalinity/Magnesium and Coraline growth ? and 2, what magesium aditive would you use --I was going to get Kent.

Thanks.

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[ignatz]

If you want to concentrate on raising your alkalinity, you shouldn't add just ESV number 2. Those additives(ESV) are designed to be used in combination. You are also dosing additional trace elements divided between the two parts of B-Ionic. IMO if you only dose one part you are opening yourself to a chemical imbalance. That said, the best way to raise your alk is by adding Sodium Carbonate, and Sodium Bi-Carbonate. ESV sells a product called Liquid Carbonate Buffer (http://www.esvco.com/prod11.htm) that is designed to raise alk in systems with high calcium levels. I would personally try this approach before dosing anything else.

HTH
~ignatz

[JohnL]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Do you know of any reading re Alkalinity/Magnesium and Coraline growth ?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

There are some articles by Craig Bingman in the archives on Aquarium Frontiers Online (http://www.animalnetwork.com/fish/aqfm/default.asp)

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Regards - John

[smpolyp]

I seem to like numbers of 4 alk 400 cal and 1400-1600 mag.This is what seems to be best for my tanks numbers,which can very from test kit to test kit,tester to tester,and additive to additive.Many say don't get bent on numbers which is true,but calibrate your tank with observation to those numbers.Without testing you may not know when to fix it before it can go wrong.Remeber test kit to test kit,tester to tester and product to product will vary your numbers.Calibrate you and you tank.Urban Symby.

[MIKE]

Hi Rampage,

I seriously doubt you have a magnesium problem. This is not as common as is often presumed, and usually only occurs when one has inadvertently precipitated out the carbonates when playing chemistry (like adding magnesium when you don't need it :)). I say this with confidence cause there's no way you'd have a calcium of 460 if mag was depleted.

As has been mentioned, your readings are not all that bad. And given that alkalinity is one of the easier things to measure, I doubt the alkalinity readings are bad. I would recommend lowering your calcium though (assuming *that"s* accurate). Most people think this is a slam dunk, to have a high calcium. In fact, an excessive calcium can make it very difficult to raise/maintain alkalinity, just the problem you are having. If you bring calcium down to 380-420 or so, you'll find that the alkalinity can then rise, you'll save money on ESV, and your animals will think they're back in more natural conditions!

Any of the buffering products on the market will generally work just fine, assuming it's a balanced additive, which, btw the ESV buffering part of the two-part isn't. You can verify this by checking your ph when you add it. If it skyrockets above ph 8.6-8.7, you'll have carbonates precipitate out of solution too (again, playing chemistry :)). Ignatz's suggestion about the sodium carbonate and sodium bicarbonate is right on.

Finally, ignatz, the trace elements put into the ESV product are not meant or able to be a tank additive. They are there simply to insure that any amount of the ESV, itself, that is added will be a "balanced" fluid. In other words, the amounts of elements in it other than the carbonates or calcium are very, very minor, and certainly miniscule compared to a tank's volume.

HTH
Good luck
Mike

[FOX]

Try adding just the alkalinity part of the bionic. That should allow the alk. to come up a little and the calcium to come down slightly. When you get the alk. to the level you want it, go back to dosing both or drip kalkwasser to keep everything stable.

FOX

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angelfire.com/ak3/korysreef.htm (http://www.angelfire.com/ak3/korysreef/)

[FOX]

Rampage,

Defenitely try a new kit. I like most of the Red Sea kits, but the alkalinity one is notorious for showing low readings.

FOX

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angelfire.com/ak3/korysreef.htm (http://www.angelfire.com/ak3/korysreef/)

[Rampage]

John,
Thanks for the site (cite). I'll look for articles some time today (lunch).

Smpolyp,
Thanks for the comment - concentrate on fluctuation from your own baseline. This is on point since my readings have gone south while always using the same test kit.

Mike,
Didn't know that high calcium levels can depress alkaline levels.

Fox,
I like the Red Sea as well but if the Alk kit is known for low readings what has been found to be the most accurate. I went to purchase a kit last night but my LFS was out of stock. Going to backup LFS tonight.

One thing I didn't mention in this is that I switched from Kent 2 part to the ESV after hearing all the positive feedback. Before that I still did not have good coraline growth (the reason for the switch) but had solid calc and alk levels.

I wonder if there is a missing factor associated with the switch or just coincidental.

To all, thanks for all the info.

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[FOX]

As I said before, Salifert or LaMotte are the most recomended.

FOX

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angelfire.com/ak3/korysreef.htm (http://www.angelfire.com/ak3/korysreef/)

[ignatz]

MIKE,

Thanks for the heads up. I was under the same impression, until I began exchanging e-mail with people who don't do water changes and only dose with ESV. They claimed that ESV dosed all of the "minor" trace elements, and therefore other chemical additions were unnecessay. This claim seemed to validated by ESV. The following is a quote from their website.

"B-Ionic Calcium Buffer System also provides all other important major, minor, and trace elements in the proper ratios to duplicate the composition of natural seawater"

At any rate, I think we agree that ESV B-ionic should not be used as two seperate products, because it is in fact a system.

MIKE, is absolutely right when he says, "I say this with confidence cause there's no way you'd have a calcium of 460 if mag was depleted". Calcium and Magnesium are chemically related in an aqueous solution. They along with other Group 2 elements are what give the water it's hardness. If Mag is deleted, then Calc is used to balance the system.

~ignatz

[Rampage]

Mike/Ignatz,

If your correct that I don't have a low mag problem as demonstrated by a high calc level, then I'm brought back to the initial question/problem as to why my alk won't increase and I have poor coraline growth. (See my initial post at the beginning).

I started thinking Magnesium after reading about the relationship of alk and magnesium to coraline growth and comments received in this post.

The argument, simply, went like this: Regardless of good calcium levels, without suitable alkalinity conditions, coraline growth will be limited. Further, a low magnesium level will depress alakalinity (and as you point out, calcium as well). So, the argument went, increase your magnesium supplement, hold off on other dosing and see if alkalinity rises. If so, balance out.

However, you now point out that I good calcium level is evidence of a good magnesium lvl and therefore should not be the cause of a low alkalinity level.

I don't think my calc is too high in that it's been there before and I never had the low alk problem -although that doesn't mean anything definitive anyway.

The only reason the calc is now over 400 (I usually keep it (+/- 15) is that I've been dosing both parts of ESV to get the alk up. As a result the calc went up but the alk has stayed depressed. Then I did stop adding the calc part and added the alk part as per ESV directions. I'll take your advice and only dose with both parts.

Now I'm back to why is my alkalinity level low and not increasing with proper ESV dosing and, getting to the desired end result, how do I get good coraline growth ?

Sorry if I'm a little confusing but I haven't thought chemistry for awhile and it's taking some time for this to colate in the gray matter b/n the ears.

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[Bruce Morgan]

Rampage,

How often are you adding B-Ionic? Are you
dosing it gradually throughout the day or
adding it once a day? Reason I ask is that
my 90g stony tank pulls the alk down from
12 dKH to 7dKH in about 8-10 hours. I also
use B-Ionic exclusively right now, but I
started adding it 2-3 times a day to try
to keep up with the demand. You might have
the same problem. Test your alk about 5
minutes after adding the alk component, and
you'll see what level the B-ionic is raising
it to. One difference is that my calc drops
down to about 350 between doses, where yours
is staying up.
Also, the "coagulates into strands" thing
doesn't sound too good. Obvious question is
are you adding it SLOWLY directly into the
highest flow area of your tank, like right
into the output from your return? I get
clouds occasionally, but not "strands".
HTH
Bruce


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[Rampage]

Ignatz, thanks for the site, I'll check it out. I'll also try the test you described tonight.

Bruce, great suggestion on testing 5-10 minutes after dosing (once per day to answer your question). i'll do this tonight as well.

I'll post the results in the a.m.

Thanks.

[MIKE]

Ignatz,

The information I'm sharing about the trace elements in the ESV comes from ESV. If you read their quote carefully, it could (like any good marketing technique) be construed to actually provide more than it really does, while remaining an accurate statement. Funny how the manufacturer's would do such a thing :).

Rampage - your alkalinity problem can only be explained in a couple of ways. 1) the high calcium level is preventing having more carbonates in solution, 2) you're not adding enough ESV buffer to increase the tank's level, 3) you are spiking ph while dosing the buffer too quickly, which is causing the carbonates to fall out of solution, and finally 4) the test is inaccurate.

Rule these out one at a time, and you'll solve the problem.

Good luck
Mike

[ignatz]

Rampage,

To help you shock that grey matter into action, why don't you check out this archive:
So you wanna know about alkalinity (Part 1) (http://www.reefcentral.com/ubb/Archives/Archive-000003/HTML/19991109-1-000252.html)

This is a good discussion of alkalinity, and has some defintions that make the difference between alkalinity and calcium/magnesium a little more apparent.

The best answer I can give to your question, is that you have "something" in your system that is depleteing either the sodium carbonate of the sodium bicarbonate or both in your system. I don't have enough information to make a hypothesis as to what this could be.

One of the first things you should do is to rule out are the chemicals you are dosing. I am going on the assumption(I know, I know) that you are using the original ESV B-Ionic and not the lower pH formula, so please keep that in mind. According to ESV, 1 ml(part 1) per gallon of aquarium water will raise alkalinity by 0.74 meq/liter (Note - 1 ml (part 2) per gallon of aquarium water will raise calcium concentration by 16ppm). Do a test, perform a 1 Gallon (exactly) water change, test the old tank water, add 3 mL of both parts of ESV, then test the water again. Did you see an increase of 2.3 meq/liter (Not sure how exact your test kit is) and 48 ppm Calcium (You will need a Salifert kit for this test, or the Red Sea kit using the Salifert instruments :) )? Once you know that your additives are good, the only sure fire course of action left is to dose Sodium Carbonate and Sodium Bi-carbontate, IMO.

HTH
~ignatz

[Rampage]

Today's results for anyone following this post is positive.

First, a couple of notes. Putting aside the discussion that Mag was not to low (and I haven't tested for it, I did start dosing Tech M and Strontium/Molbedym on Monday night per directions.

Yesterday, I followed Bruce's suggestion and tested the alk and then added buffer and then retested to see if the alk lvl was going up and then, possibly, being depleted.

The alk did go to 3.2 meq/ltr and this morning was still there (lights still off).

Here are the readings:

Tuesday 4:00p (left early, reefing is just to important) Alk=2.5 meq/ltr, PH=8.4

Tuesday 4:15p (added 1 cup rodi w/ 1 teaspoon kent superbuffer dkh -decided to use this instead of only the alk part of the ESV and I didn't want to add any more calcium. retested and found PH still at around 8.4 but Alk was at a nice blue 3.2 meq/ltrs, the color it has traditionally come in as with this test kit --trying to keep consistency to smpolyp's point.

Tuesday 9:00p Alk=3.2, PH 8.4

Wendsday 8:00a Alk=3.2, PH 8.3

We all know it's hard to identify exactly what happened and what factor lead to the improvement but only time will tell if the improvement 1. lasts and 2. leads to improved coraline growth.

Next steps (please feel free to make any additional suggestions or recommend no do's.

1. Later today -small water change w/ a fresh batch of rodi - which leads me to a question, does anyone adjust rodi when dosing for evap water. I don't and wonder if I should.

2. I'll retest for Alk, PH and Calcium and hopefully all will be in line.

Quesion: If AlK is being depleted quickly, what would be a cause of that.

Thanks to all for your efforts-for me, this was a worth while effort to gain additional knowledge expect to see more Q's

So far I am enjoying this board without, to date, finding, well, you all know the types I'm talking about. (Sano anyone ? ONLY KIDDING !!!!!!!!!!!)