Losing a Contest of Wills....

[rshimek]

Hi All,

Thought I would post a recent experience of mine, that I am sure I will soon think is humorous, but which presently classifies as an ARRRGH!!! experience.

My 45 gal lagoonal reef is recovering from a plague of the Devil's spawn (Aiptasia), which killed most of my corals. The tank presently has a copperbanded butterfly - which eats other food when no anemones are around - and a pair of maroon clowns in it.

A couple of months ago, my wife had to visit Seattle and on her way home, stopped by and bought me a couple of nice little pieces of Acropora. I put them in my tank, and watched one thrive and the other undergo some tissue recession. However, all was soon good with the world and the "sickie" recovered and was doing very well.

Until 3 days ago.

I have a clonal assemblage of some mushroom polyps in my system. Started with one, now have maybe 40. They reproduce like crazy. They are also aggressive and sting the bejeezus out what ever they touch.

You guessed it, they started to "attack" my little coral.

Okay, I think. I can solve this. There is a nice open area about 6 inches away that would be just perfect for the coral. I move the coral on its little concrete pad (it is a farm raised colony). I wedge it in place. It looks good. It is safe from the corallomorphs.

I am happy.

When I checked the tank the next morning, I find the coral colony turned over and down in the mushrooms. I quickly rescued it, but there is plenty of damage. It was very stable where I had put it and there was no way it could have moved on its own, I thought, but just to be sure I put it back and securely epoxied it in place.

Went off to do my morning chores.

Came back to find "Big Mama," the maroon clown female, removing the last remnants of the epoxy, after having already removed the coral and dumped it over on the rockwork. Not in mushrooms, this time, though.

Okay, I thought, I still like the spot for the coral, I can fix this. So I go to my low light tank in the next room and find a nice little piece of flat rock. I wedge this in to make a better platform for my coral. The phone rings and some other chores intervene. When I return to the tank about an hour later the flat rock is nowhere to be seen. By reaching in my tank and feeling behind the rockwork, I find the flat rock where the clown had dropped it.

I am getting irritated at this Q@$@r$%&^% fish! So yesterday morning I epoxied the coral back in place where I wanted it. Wedging in it in with signficant force. Using about 3/4 of a tube of expoxy to make sure it is held securely.

Checked on the tank repeatedly yesterday - all looked well. Checked on the tank after dark last night, all looked well.

Checked on the tank this morning, about 2 hours after the lights came on, to find pieces of expoxy rubble all over the tank and the coral face down in the mushrooms again.

I just put the coral in a totally different part of the tank... I hope "Big Mama" likes it there....

Sigh. I hate feeling like a loser... But it is obviously her tank.

But I had to share this with someone.

Cheers, Ron

[This message has been edited by rshimek (edited 12-14-1999).]

[FOX]

Sorry about your trouble Ron, but it's kind of nice, in a way, to know that sometimes the experts in the field have similar problems to the rest of us. I just recently lost a maroon(due to ignorance on my part) that used to do things like that to me also. It would move things away from it's E. Quadricolor and would bite the crap out of me whenever I reached to close to it. I have ordered a mated pair of gold striped maroons at my lfs. Should be picking them up Saturday. I almost bought a trio of baby saddle clowns, but I really like the mated maroons.

FOX

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angelfire.com/ak3/korysreef.htm (http://www.angelfire.com/ak3/korysreef/)

[AmandaJ]

Hello Ron!! Sorry about your troubles with your "Boss-woman" clown. I just recently purchased your book and it has been a huge help to me. I also got "A Practical Guide To Corals". I used to live in Kalispell, so I know it is difficult to say the least to find a good LFS there in Montana. By the way, your advice on sponges was sound, mine did not make it for long. They got VERY cold during shipment and I think they were for the most part, dead before they ever made it to my tank. However, the sponges that came attached to my liverock are doing great and spreading. Thanks for the great book.

[JohnL]

Hi Ron,

That's one determined fish you have there. I had a damsel that would peck at me as I tried to place a bubble coral near it's home. It used its tail to try and knock the coral down for a few days but then gave up.

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Regards - John

[KA]

Hey Ron,
Yep, I've had the same experience (although not quite as bad as yours) with "Ethel" (whos husband is "Fred"), my big gold maroon. When I added a frogspawn about 8" away from Fred and Ethyl's adopted mushroom colony, she bit and chewed at the epoxy for a week before finally giving up! I guess I was lucky the epoxy hardened up well before she went to town on it. And, just like Fox's maroon, she bites the living hell out of me when I put my hand in the tank (like a marine piranah)! But she's still the most beautiful and entertaining fish I've ever had! Wouldn't trade her for anything!
KA

[Larry M]

All I can say is, LMAO!

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Larry M

My Personal Site, Northern Reef (http://www.homestead.com/larry_reef/index.html)

[Q-ball]

I can definately sympathize...I have a pair of false perc's, for bout 2 years now, great fish. Well, one day I gave them a nice lil house, a beautiful conch shell...they took to it pretty quick. Now, any time my hand goes anywhere near it, the female nails me. She bit the back of my hand once near the knuckle so hard that she took a chunk outta me! I still have a little scar from it! Her name is now "Queen B". 3 guesses what the "B" stands for? ;) I get so mad when she bites me, but I could never get rid of her, they are too cool! :D

Q

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wife: "What's it going to cost THIS time?"
;)

[Frisco]

I feel you Ron. I have had problems with several unmounted frags falling over onto adjacent corals and getting fried. At least you have tissue left; I just have memories and only myself to blame. :)

[Targus]

I'm going thru a bit of a nightmare myself right now. I bought an electric grade maxima clam a few weeks ago, paid WAY too much for it out of guilt, (long story.) and the thing is very slowly dying. All of the edges are slowly receding into the clam and it's wide open. The clam was fantastic looking, now it look's like a bald headed old grump.
My other 2 clams have never looked better.
Sigh...Oh well.

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See my tank at http://www.homestead.com/reefcentral/targus.html

[Heinrich]

Reminds me of my 300L tank that had primarily Triggers and a minatus in it along with a snowflake and a yellow tang.
This was a six inch Maroon female and all was well, until afriend had to move and the girlfriend of mine at the time decided to put the small maroon clown into the tank as company for my bigmama.
It was aa miracle he didn't get eaten and after about two months the started mating, and the maroon started headshaking etc. I think I read a dozen or so books on the synptoms of fish diseases before someone showed me their pair of spawning clowns...
Any once they started laying eggs the eels and triggers kept eating them. I was happy in my ignorance not wanting to have any more clowns to take care of. This was about 5-1/2 years ago. Then when I got back visiting a friend in Berlin for 5 days there was an empty tank, upon closer inspection I found both maroons which were doing fine and the eel, as well as the yellow tang in the corner and hiding behind a rock. Then the note, check the freezer.
One 5" minatus grouper,
one 6"niger trigger
one 4" clown trigger
one 7" pinktail trigger

interesting thing was she didn't like any fish in the vicintiy of the nest/anenome. And had torpedoed the triggers so badly that she actually killed all three. She grabed them from behind or simply kept boucing them against the glass of the tank. There was unfortunately not enough hidingroom in the tank and I heard that the triggers weere fighting for the only bigger dead coral skelleton to hide in to escape the continous attacks of bigmama.

She bit me and didn't let go until I started pulling her out of the water. Very dedicated, and you don't mess with her.

I lost over a months sallary on those fish which were really hard to get in because of regulations in effect in Germany at the time.

I never did manage to raise the fry fully. But that's another painful story of learning and lots of good bites, and bubbling bottles.
But you better be sure that you don't mess up the livingroom of your big moma without her tiding it up. You should have known better Ron lucky she didn't give you a good wooping :)

I'm still amazed at the dedication and aabsolute fearlessness of some clowns such as cinamons and especially maroons.
She managed to almost kill my 7" undulated in one evening before I removed him and set up the 150L for just her and her man. Who was less than 1.5" and also fiercly helped her out when needed. Reminded me of a big parrot on a pirate shoulder pecking at anyone who dares attack his protector.

I allways say be careful with large maroons that have had enough of an energy reservoir to begin breeding. Strange that something like taht happened in a trigger tank. Reminds me when I tried breeding real perculas and it took them 14 months to finally get it on as my wife says. Under perfect conditions, no other fish.
Still have that scar under my left thumb.

Oh you think she's bad you should hear tthe story about the dragonwrasse I had in my 36"x24"x36" reef. Fine for three months and then he becomes architect, wrecking and buildingcrew in just one morning. Woke up one night when the whole elaborate structure collapsed from him removing epoxy very thoroughly.
Try catching that guy in four inches of sand and 120lb of LR. I can still see the scratches in my acrylic. He used to also move a branching hammer and torch around and plug up a whole so he could get at the critters that would take refuge in there. Interesting farming technique. And who says fish are dumb?

93! Heinrich

[Rinaldi]

Its something about maroon clowns. I have maroon with a single gold "bandaid" on her forehead. Had her for seven years in a 30g undergravel cess pool and now in a 75g reef. She moves (carries!) small pieces of live rock all around the tank. These are twice as big as she is. I once saw her charge and ram a piece of live rock ten times her size which was temporaily moved during a routine tank cleaning. She didn't like the new location.

As for a battle of the wills, she constantly digs out pits in the sand bed. She seems to like channels dug deep under the lr. I have lost the battle to restore the sand bed my way. Forget plenum arguments, I removed mine because as a practical matter she insisted on digging down to the bottom and was aerating the lower levels and "poisoning" the whole concept!

[reefmanic]

Rest asured I will never get a clown!! I have 4 girls,a female rottie and shepard and they all fight continuously among themselves,my tank is supposed to be where I get peace and solitude.Hey Ron,I bet my dinos can kick your clowns *** :)Again,thanks for your help!!!!!! August

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"A set back is a set up for a come back!"

[Heinrich]

On a different related note. Has anyone ever tried keeping clowns in a apastia anenome? I have one in the center of the tank i've tried killing, but she's tough and has earned her right to stay. I kill off any spawn, but she's been in there for about 12 months. Really big at aroud 5" when fully open.
Anyone want some cuttings? Ron? :)
I feel you about the aipastias. Last weekend I helped a friend eliminate some of the aipastias with the proven old boiling kalkwasser injection via a syringe. Till the pH is about 9.0 then you need to stop. Best method is sufficient pepermints. I've had Copperbands, which are among my favorite butterflys but not a great deal of success at eating Aipastias. One dug in the in the sand for worms!? the other one ate anything that hit the tank and especially liked featherdusters. So good luck with that problem.
93! Heinrich

[Reef Junkie]

Ron,
"I feel your pain" (in my best Bill Clinton voice) I have a clown that's an interior designer too. I once spent an hour sculpting a rock with a dremel tool to get two coral heads in it. Kinda like a bi level effect. She came out from the other side of the tank and kept pulling out the one on top. I used almost a whole stick of epoxy to keep the coral down! In the end it was the anemone that crawled up the rock to kill the coral. Tag team! Arrgghh!
Later,
Bill

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http://www.homestead.com/reefjunkie/highenergy.html

[rshimek]

Well Folks,

It is good to see that my maroon is not alone in fulfilling her genetic destiny of rearranging the world.

It is interesting to try to figure out what kind of world she is arrangeing FOR and what specific cues she uses.

I have had similar tank rearrangement occur in my Stichodactyla haddoni tank. I have a large female anemone (ca 60 cm - 2 ft across). She is in a 60 gallon hex dedicated to her care, with a pair of clarkii clowns - the female here is close to 5.5 in (15 cm) long. I sculpted this tank to my satisfaction. Took her about a week to rearrange it to meet her's. It could look a lot better as far as I am concerned - but over 5 years I have learned not to bother anything in her tank...

I have seen her pick up a piece of live rock easily 8" long and carry it to dump it on the other side of the tank. She has built quite a nice rubble pile out of my nicely scupted tank.

Regarding peppermint shrimp. I think they are good, boiled and iced on a cracker. All Lysmata eat polyps, but the only luck I have had with L. wurdemanni is that they eat soft corals like star polyps. I have tried them many times in several tanks to no good avail.

I think that if one's tank is well fed, they will act like scavengers and disdain eating Aiptasia. In their hierarchy of preferred foods, I think the anemone ranks right at the bottom - they will eat ANYTHING else first. I feed my tanks rather heavily - so they never, ever, have mad a dent in any Aiptasia I have tried to control. This copperbanded is a marvelous fish...

Cheers, Ron

[Steve Richardson]

I have a tomato clown like this. I call it 'him' (Big Ben)... perhaps I'm wrong.

There is a big opening between some rock that he loves to swim through. If I put ANYTHING within reach of that opening, Ben clamps on with open mouth, and buldozes it away. I'm pretty sure that he is enthusiastic enough to move a bowling ball if I put one there.

He also has an iritating habit of (again) clamping down onto a piece of live rock as an anchor, and thrashing his tail...kicking up a huge cloud of substrate.

Beautiful fish, but its a challenge. ;)

-Steve R

[Larry M]

Sounds like Big Mama and Big Ben should get together. Just think of the personality the offspring would have.


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Larry M

My Personal Site, Northern Reef (http://www.homestead.com/larry_reef/index.html)

[rshimek]

Hi Folks,

Regarding Big Ben, obviously a shortened name for Bennedine...:-) all large clowns will be female, as will all solitary clowns.

Regarding the shrimp, yes I know about camel shrimp. I have looked at a lot of Lysmata, and the confusion in the hobby about the identities in all of the Hippolytidae is well-known to me, but I have even gone to the original scientific literature to varify descriptions - and none of the peppermint varieties I have had will eat my brands of Aiptasia.

There are numerous sorts of variation in these systems, including variation in strains of Aiptasia, but for my tanks if I never see another peppermint shrimp, that will be fine with me.

Cheers, Ron

[This message has been edited by rshimek (edited 12-15-1999).]

[Reef Junkie]

LadyBallPlayer,
LMAO! Yeah, I guess these fish aren't much different then us humans. You women always seem to get the upper hand on us guys...
On a thread related note... I am freaking estatic!!! I put my hands in my tank today to try and get my Carpet anemone from climbing up the rock work and into a plastic plant pot. When I moved the rock to get it I was totally shocked to what I found. About 100 little eggs glued to the tank wall behind it! My clarkii clowns spawned! I probably sealed the little eggs fate by moving the rock, but now I know they're comfortable enough to spawn. This is the second time I've had fish spawn in my tank. The first was my Bangii cardinals. It's been almost a year and I still have two babies from that spawn. I will probably start a new thread, because I don't know anything about trying to raise clown fry.
Later,
Bill

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http://www.homestead.com/reefjunkie/highenergy.html

[rshimek]

Hi R-J,

Get Joyce Wilkerson's book on Clownfishes. She knows all - and tells all.

Cheers, Ron

[Reef Junkie]

Ron,
Thanks. I just ordered it from Amazon.com. It should be here by Friday.
Thanks again,
Bill

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http://www.homestead.com/reefjunkie/highenergy.html

[alde]

Hi Ron,

You might try gluing the clown to a rock. Just kidding of course.

I have a 2" Clarks Clown that moves everything out of her little cave. I have seen her pick up hermit crabs and carry them half way accross the tank and she does not like the Sally Lightfoot crab at all. She also moves rocks, but not big ones.

Last night I changed the carbon in my sump. I always put some tank water in a cup and try to get the pods out of the carbon bag. I dump these into the tank for a snack. Last night there was a bristle worm in the cup of water. I dumped it in the tank thinking the fish would leave it alone. The Clarks tasted it six times then finaly just ate it. She looked like she bit into a lemon or somthing. She looks like she is doing fine though.

Best regards, Al

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He who feared he would not succeed sat still.




[This message has been edited by alde (edited 12-15-1999).]

[ladyballplayer]

Don't you guys know that females rule the world?

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[Heinrich]

Reefjunkie you don't know what you're in for. I agree the book by Wilkerson is really the best one out there. To get a more realistic look on culturing food I'd also read the Raising the orchid dottyback by Moe. Really worth it alone from the humor.
The problem with breeding on a private level is it has to be ddone for the shear fun of it. And even then it often ends in several more tank for fry etc. Best thing is to talk to a LFS and ask if they'll take the clowns if they spawn and give you credit or cash. Do this before spending a fortune on culture supplies, tanks, pumps, UV sterilizers, heaters etc.
Hope you've got an understanding wife. Mine was understanding for a while and it was definately worth the experience. but be prepared for an absolute minimum of 1-2 hrs a day of work once you get going. Waterchanges, algaecultures, rotifers, brine and the word culture and crash will have a whole new meaning to you.
I almost envy you, it was really something breading clowns, it's so nice seeing that caring strange behavior and if your really good that strange ball of orange, of little fry swimming in a clump. Well yellowish ball for you. ;) Good Luck.

Ron can you take a look at my post concerning a sponge or a turnicate of some sort that is encroaching a green starpolyps of mine. Any suggestions on what to do? The sponge is clear whittish with many syphonopenings randomly scattered and is covering the polyp in an area of about 4"x5" then the tissue seems to be replaced by the sponge. I'm not sure if cutting the infected area out would help much? Any danger of releasing toxins or the exposed tissue of the coral getting threatend faster? My queen pretty much eats any nice sponges or seasquirts, but seems to completely ignore this one. Loves blue and purple seasquirts and sponges and the yellow ball sponges, but ignores the rather darb looking ones.
Any suggsetions on how to avoid this in the future. Start mixing in some of this sponge into the food of the queen so she gets a taste for it? :)
I actually recently heard that you have to be really careful mixing in random sponges into the food since some could be really dangerous even for sponge eating fish any clue on that.

Thanks again for any help.
93! Heinrich

[ladyballplayer]

Way to go Reef Junkie!!!
Can I be God Mama to the next litter???

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