trocus pokus

[hesaias]

My trocus(turbo) snails have gotten lazy and BIG!
I have 6 and they did a good job for the last year, but now their just old and in the way.
That said, I'm gonna add 12 astrea and 12 margarita snails, and maybe a couple more turbos
Do these snails do good work? and are they bad to tip over and die(my turbos never have, and thats a good thing :) )
any other info would be good to!
TIA

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hesaias

my homepage (http://www.angelfire.com/on2/hesaias/index.html)

[Larry M]

hesaias--Astreas need a little help getting turned over now and then, depending on where they land. The Margaritas I've never dealt with.
Good luck,


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Larry M

View a list of RC Member's websites at:
http://www.reefcentral.com/membersites.html

[rshimek]

You might want to consider why the Turbos "are not doing their job." Is this because you are having an outbreak of hair algae or sporling macroalgae? If so, no addition of grazing snails will help as they do not, in fact CANNOT, eat this stuff. They are simply diatom grazers. I suspect your tank has reached equilibrium and the Turbos are able to subsist on what is in the tank, and keep the rest cropped down. By the by, these animals can live several decades - so I doubt they "have gotten old."

If there are a few diatoms around this is normal, the situation is at a steady state. Addition of more snails will cause the diatoms to be cropped back and then all or most of the snails will die from starvation; and an algal bloom will commence and you will be worse off than you are now.

Additionally, for what it is worth, there are no warm water Margarites, the group is wholly cool water. I haven't a clue what dealers sell as margarites, but it surely isn't any member of that group.

You might want to check out the following
article, it contains some information about the animals that you may find useful.
http://www.animalnetwork.com/fish/aqfm/1999/july/wb/default.asp

Cheers, Ron

[hesaias]

Thanks Larry and Ron.
The problem is some fuzz growing on the LR . I dont have any on the sand. The turbos have been keeping things real clean so far, but now they dont move about much when the lights are on. They were very active until about a month ago(they also produced a baby turbo sometime in the last couple of months :)) now they move very little in the daytime. Is there any thing i can check for in the meantime? all water parameters are as they have been (Good)
Im at a loss for now.
The margarita snails are the ones FFExpress offers.
Hey Ron thanks for pointing to that article its very informative, I really dig my snails. Ive got a wine red one(Idont know where It came from) Ill post a pic when I get a good one
later and thanks again

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hesaias

my homepage (http://www.angelfire.com/on2/hesaias/index.html)

[rshimek]

Hi,

I suspect the turbos there are couple of possibilities, if every thing else is the same. 1) the snails are running out of food, 2) some snail pathogen has been introduced into the tank.

I think the FFE margarites are a species of Astraea, and as such will probably have some problems if they drop on sand. In nature most Astraea are totally a species found on rocks and never encounter sand, and simply are unable to move on it.

Fuzzy type algae are best tackled by fish such as tangs or by inverts like urchins. There are really no snails that are available in the hobby that will eat it.(:-))


Cheers, Ron



[This message has been edited by rshimek (edited 10-31-1999).]

[Biosystems]

hesaias:
Margarita snails from many sources are of the nerite sp. They are good snail choices for diatoms and film type algaes, although some forms do eat turf algaes including some hair in the reef aquarium. You may take caution as to the source of these snails however b/c depending on species (generally distinguished by locale of collection) they can be very poor aquarium specimens b/c they can not breathe under water and must go to the surface to breathe. Thus they often crawl out of aquariums. I have found PA a good source for Nerite snails and have never had a problem with the ones that they have sent. If you are also looking for a snail that is good on turf type algaes try cerith snails. These snails if purchased large do a great job with turf algaes. The smaller ones do a good job with diatoms. I must admit though, b/c of the problems in this industry with proper classification of snails, hermits, fish, inverts, and corals, it may take many orders to get what really functions for your need b/c the genus designation is a very broad classification of these snails. A point in example is although nassarius snails (one of my favorites) do not have a reputation in the industry for eating film algae and diatoms, I have ordered several sets of a black shelled variety that do an incredible job at cleaning the glass. while I have another type that will not touch anything but ditritus and chunks of food. Like Ron said however-there are much better choices than snails for removing the fuzzy algae that you are getting-the only question is do you wish to include these (I personally like the work that urchins do, but I do not like cleaning up their bulldozer activity-although large trochus do the same in my tank-nor do I like the fact that they eat things like coraline that I do not want them to.

HTH,
Tim

[This message has been edited by Biosystems (edited 10-31-1999).]

[hesaias]

Biosystems,
Ive had 2 urchins in the past and realy liked thier interaction in my tank. However due to my nonexp. at the time they died frop malichite green exposure :(
I may be having some low turbo food probs, and I dont want to add more competition for what ther do have. My yellow Tang is not really helping and I do have some real good coraline growth right now, so I may try a couple of small urchins and some nasarius snails(the burrowing type). Who has those burrowins nassarius snails any way?
thanks again

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hesaias

my homepage (http://www.angelfire.com/on2/hesaias/index.html)

[Biosystems]

You can get nassarius from many vendors I have heard people get good ones (although theirs did not perform the same function as mine)from PA and I have gotten many other types of snails from them and was pleased-the place that I got mine from I am hesitant to recommend b/c they are not a very good company to order things from except snails and I really do not want to send them business. As far as their function-I would not depend on these sanils to take care of any of the "fuzzy" algae that you are experiencing as they just will not touch turf algae. They are nice b/c they burrow in the sand and come out full force at feeding time. I also got at least 40 in an order of Florida live sand that I got in, but this type will not touch the algae/diatoms on the glass. They also do a fairly good job at keeping the sand clean. Hermits however like to prey on them b/c they are an easy target down on the sand bed.
Small urchins are not too bad as far as their habits and they are some of the most productive workers as long as you can stand their pitfalls. If you have good coraline growth, small ones may not make a dent in it.

Tim

[Biosystems]

Ron:
I would like to thank you for the incredible articles and detailed information that you provide the hobby with. They are very thorough and informative. The links provided with your gastropod article were great-although unfortunately I could not find nassarius in the listings.
I wondered if you could link me to a nassarius snail article with pics. As I said, I can not physically distinguish the nassarius in my tank, except shell color, but their habits are easily distiguishable. As I have no experience in snail classification, I, as you pointed out, am not sure that these are nassarius, but they are what has always been sold to me as nassarius and as such when I got LS in that had a similar snail with different colors, I presumed these too were nassarius. I have watched the black turbine like snails with an elephant like trunk clean the green film algae off the glass. There was some debate over this and I sat for hours and watched the snails scrape the glass leaving tracks where they went. After my observation several others also reported that snails with a similar appearance that were sold to them as nassarius were doing the same thing. I can not say that they digested it, but they sure removed it. Since I like to have classification correct, I would appreciate if you could help me with the proper classification of these snails.

Thanks in advance,
Tim

[rshimek]

Hi Tim,

As far as I know there is no good Nassarius information on line. My article was published about a year ago in Aquarium Fish Magazine.

I will email you a copy of the article and an illustration.

Cheers, Ron

[Biosystems]

Ron:

Thank you immensely for the article and diagram. I had read elsewhere that it was your description that brought them into the hobby, so I hope you are getting a cut from all the wholesalers/retailers ;). I also thank you for not making me dig through my archives to find your article.
Your description on their function and what they do in your aquarium is identical to what I have observed-they have made great replacements for the hermits if I could only get all the hermits out of there. I assume that since you got them from SeaCritters that they were from Florida. If so were they a whiteish color with tan striped shell like I got in my LS from Florida? These seem only to come out when I offer food to the tank. I will try and get a pic up for you of the other ones that I have since I now have magnifiers for my camera lens. I just have to figure out how to post it-if not I will email it to you. They appear just as you describe with the breathing siphon and turbine shaped shell but are black with a black spotted gray tissue. I had orginally tried taking photos of them on the glass with the cleared trail they left behind, but at that time none of the photos came out and I now have no algae on my glass to see what they are doing there (except on a side that I don't think I can get a pic of, which happens to be where several of them are now).

Thanks again for your help.

Tim

P.S> I have rarely seen a scientist that can come up with interesting and fun titles and inserts/asides that you do. Thanks for making the subjects enjoyable as well as informative.

[hesaias]

NEWMargarita Nerite Snail (Neritidae Nerita funiculata) - This is a small round snail. They stay small, so a great micro-tank addition or use larger numbers for bigger tanks. They eat diatom and film type algaes.
http://www.premiumaquatics.com/livestock/margarita.jpg
FFE seems to be selling the same snail as a margarita also

how are cerith snails, do they compete w\turbos for food, or can they eat other kinds?
(I'm going to check that last article now, if it answers that last question....nuff said :))

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hesaias

my homepage (http://www.angelfire.com/on2/hesaias/index.html)

[rshimek]

Tim,

Glad I can help, and that you find my babbling useful.

Yes, I do get mine from SeaCritters.

<I will try and get a pic up for you of the other ones that I have since I now have magnifiers for my camera lens.>

The others may be relatives from a genus called Ilynassa. However, the Ilynassa that I have heard of being for sale are temperate animals and have a limited life span in reef aquaria.

Cheers, Ron

[rshimek]

hesaias

Yup, that's a nerite alright. For kicks, I have emailed an image of an actual margarite to you. Enjoy.

Cerithium eats sediment and detritus, probably also eats diatoms. They not normally considered diatom grazers, but I am sure some of their nutrition could come from this source. I don't think they would compete effectively with the so-called Turbos.

Cheers, Ron

[hesaias]

Thanks :)

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hesaias

my homepage (http://www.angelfire.com/on2/hesaias/index.html)

[Biosystems]

Ron:

OK, You may think I am crazy, but I have been called out several times on these nassarius that I have when I say that they are good algae cleaners-better than most other snails in my tank and a have an immense diversity of snails. I have had these snails for over 5 months now and they have continuously served this function. So I again sat down and observed and am now more interested than ever in your input and identification of these snails. If they are nassarius/Ilynassa and they do not have the ability to digest algae they sure are very interested at removing it. I have no algae on my front glass, but I do get a green algal film type algae in spots about 1-2mm in diameter on the side glass. The ones that were there earlier are there now with a single nerite. I could see the mouth extended to the glass and the extension of the radula scraping the algal circles off the glass. They would then move on to a nearby patch and remove it. The radula is much smaller than that of the nerite's that is nearby. I popped off a few roles of film of the event, but I do not think I could ever get a shot of such fine detail to show the algae actually being removed (that is if the shots came out at all).

So two questions:
Temperate snails-what is the expected approx. life span of these in aquaria maintained at 82-84F? I have kept these five months with the only losses that I have seen due to blue legged hermits.

Should they just commit me now are wait until I have completely flipped over this nassarius thing ;)?

I am very interested in this b/c these snails are great for a reef tank. They stir the top layer of my sand bed, are attracted to flesh and do a good job in numbers of tearing it up, and they clean my glass. I do not know of any other snails that perform all these functions.


Thanks again for all your assistance.
Tim

[This message has been edited by Biosystems (edited 11-03-1999).]

[rshimek]

Here is a bit more info on grazing snails...
http://www.animalnetwork.com/fish/aqfm/1999/nov/wb/default.asp

One of the interesting things about this thread is that is showing the absolute uselessness of common names when it comes to this group.

Points: No Nassarius can eat algae. They don't have the appropriate guts for it. What ever is eating algae in "systems's" tanks are, they surely aren't Nassarius.

Margarite is both a common name and a scientific name (the later as "Margarites"), and they are generally recognized as as small trochids, looking much like Astraea or Trochus, which is very different in shape from Nerites. Nonetheless some of the less "with it" dealers are selling Nerites as Margarites. Sort of like selling typewriters as "word processors"...

Cheers, Ron

[rshimek]

Tim,

Illynassa will eat algae, Nassarius will not.

The radula of a Nassarius is at the end of a proboscis and could not function to rasp glass as you describe.

I would expect lllynassa to live for 6 mo to a year at 82-84 deg. Floridian Nassarius should last several years.

If you want to send me one or two or have a shell from one of your algae eaters, I will be glad to identify if you want to mail it to me.

If you want to mail one contact me by email, and I will give the snail mail address.

Cheers, Ron

[hesaias]

Hey man, the more info the better. I am really soaking all this up so to add the right combo to my tank. So far I think a Queen Conch, 12-24 nassarius snails, and maybe some cerith or nerite snails and a couple of urchins. I may add a few nassarius and add to so that I dont starve any.
see ya

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hesaias

my homepage (http://www.angelfire.com/on2/hesaias/index.html)

[Biosystems]

Ron:

Thanks for the information. The illynassa must be what they are selling to me. I may get in touch with you and send you some. 6 months would be a bummer as far as life span, but it is longer than I can get some astrea to live (Astrea is actually one of my least favorite snails with all of its inherent problems). I have no problems with all the other types I have, but astrea seem to die off quickly. Although I do have a few in there that have been in there for quite some time.

Thanks again and sorry hesaias for filling up your thread.

Tim