Nutrients, Import/export of nutrients in deep sand bed

[Link]

I am still pondering whether I should go with a deep sand bed or glass bottom.

I have read a few articles concerning the import/export of nutrients in a deep sand bed. These articles are abit concerning to me.
Nutrient import - To keep a large variety and quantity of sand critters, one must feed the system with ALOT of food. I've seen food quantities of 10 OZ (wet weight) daily! WOW!
What do you feed your sand bed and how much???????

Nutrient export - One of the major components of removing excess nutrients is algal grow/removal. Algal eats nutrients, human removes algal.

Does this mean I have to live with algal infested tank with lots of husbandry to remove it????????

Shimek states 'Normal coral reefs are dominated by algal'. 'Coral reefs are algal dominated communities; up to 80 percent of the living mater on coral reefs is algal tissue. 'PERIODIC MAINTENANCE - manual algal harvesting about every two weeks from all tanks'.

If Shimek is trying to say that algal infested tanks is the way nature intends it to be, and we have to be the predators(clean it out), well then OK. But I have not seen deep sand advocates talk about algal problems.

I like to hear for DS advocates and ALGAL export removal experiences.

I am also concerned whether a beginner like me can manage a deep sand bed without resulting in a disaster, a sess pool of sh|t, food, and algal. This is especially true for a young sand bed. How do you know how much to feed a inmature/young sand bed without overfeeding/underfeeding???????

I've also read where the PH tends to stay low in a deep sand set up, but occupants seems to handle it OK. Anyone else hear of this.

I would really like to see some responds. I am ready to filler-up but not until I'm sure I have a reasonable chance to succeed.

oh yea,
I would like to keep some SPS corsls. I've always understood SPS like nutritionally poor waters. Are deep sand bed tanks bad choice for SPS???

Thanks, Link

[MIKE]

Hi Link,

Feeding your tank is an ecological balance equation, thus there's really no one formula for feeding. A tank with a large ecosystem, can handle more food and vice versa. So how much you feed can often determine the size of the fauna population.

In a truly balanced ecosystem, problem algae don't occur because there are adequate consumers (including "good" algae) of organics at all levels of mineralization. This is why some folks will talk about a big tank, that they feed huge amounts to, and have no filtration beyond rock and substrate (I've done this myself). I recommend protein skimming, because it's make achieving the balance easier, especially on an immature tank (less than 1 yr. old).

It is indeed true that reefs are dominated by algae. This usually shocks a hobbyist because we think "algae = bad". Coralline is algae and probably the most populous form in most tanks/reefs, and we want those. Macro algae also make up a part of this population as do kelps and seaweeds (depending on location). So don't equate Shimek's statement with "bad algae".

I think you should go with a deep substrate, hands down. They are not difficult to maintain. Using a live substrate helps tremendously, but isn't even required. A turkey baster lightly blowing into the top 1" of the substrate once each week will do the job too. And any detritus that gets stirred into the tank is great food for corals (they love it). If you are a "beginner", I actually think you are MORE likely to be successful with a greater than 3" substrate than a bare bottom.

As far as "feeding the sandbed". Don't. Feed the tank in general, the substrate will take care of itself just fine. As far as ph, it will not depress the tank ph. You'll have zones inside the substrate with lower ph, but this is good/normal. The tank ph is much more dependent on gas exchange.

SPS corals will do great with a substrate (they do in nature http://216.121.119.111/ubb/smile.gif). "Nutrient poor" means lacking in DOC, not lacking in coral nutrients.

HTH
Good luck
Mike

[Link]

Mike, Thanks for your speedy reply.

I am still open to using deep sand bed. Just want to learn other peoples experiences before I commit.

I think initial setup is important so, here's mine. I would appreciate you review. I was initially planning for SPS only, but will probably add other SPS compatible corals.

Tank - 120 all glass reef ready, two overflows 2x4x2

Lights - 2 6500 Iwasaki using icacap electronic ballast, 2 VHO Atinics also using icecap electronic ballasts

Skimmer - Homemade by LFS

Sump - 45 gallon 2'x2'x18"

Overflow returns - 2 gen-x mak4(one for each side) total of 1800GPH

Water filter - Spectrapure DI/RO

Now for sand/rock setup. A friend of mine gave me 60-70 pounds branch rock, 120+ pounds figi rock. It was removed from his tank and dried out. I brought it home and scrubbed it in fresh water.

With no water in tank(still has no water), I first placed branch rock directly on glass. Looked like mangled roots. I then added 3 inchs of oolictic sand, 1 inch carisea seaflor on top kinda mixed in, over entire bottom of tank, throughout mangled roots. Mangled roots stick up enough to place base rocks on. Looks very natural. I only added 60 or so pounds of this dried fiji. I dont like tall leaning walls, live sand should require less live rock????

Thats where I am at now. I was planning to add water, add 40 pounds live sand(from a variety of places) and a couple detrivore kits. Also 25-30 pounds live rock(uncured, food for live sand??).

I have another 50 or so pounds of dried out fiji. Should I add this to sump, maybe sand in sump and turn into refugium. Sump is in basement, thinking of making it a reverse daylight to help PH swings, and let ALGAL grow in large quantity to absorb nutrients.

After adding live sand and rock, what should I feed the live sand, I have been told just flake food?? How long before adding some kind of clean up crew. I know, no sand sifters. What would you recommend for clean up crew. About another 3 months or so before slooowly adding a few carals/fish????

I know I'm taking on alot for first reef tank(first saltwater tank actually), but I'm doing my reading and research and love the challenge.

I know it seems to be late in the ball game for some of these questions. But I didnt really decide on deep sand bed until last minute(still not sure).

Any input would be greatly appreciated.

Link

[MIKE]

Hi Link,

I like it. I think what you are describing will work quite nicely, assuming you have enough branch rock to support all the base rock.

Make sure the substrate depth is min. 3" (which you sound like you have). Don't be in a panic to add any live sand. You can do so after the tank cycles or during the cycle. As far as live sand = less live rock, maybe, maybe not. Again, your tank is gonna become a living ecosystem. If there's adequate liverock/substrate surface area, you should have plenty of biofiltration surface. And your setup sounds more than adequate (it's actually much less than most people think).

Your sump idea sounds great to me. Again, the more fauna/vegetation diversity, the better. And a reverse photoperiod is likely to help ph, although not as much as quality gas exchange.

If you know your stuff, and you are sure researching it, this should be ok for a first tank. Take your time, make each step slowly. Don't be afraid of having a thick substrate at all. It will really help out.

Finally, you're likely to have some problem algae bloom. This is normal in a new tank no matter what type of setup. When it happens, don't panic. Just allow the tank to continue to mature and the water to cure.

Good luck
Mike

[Link]

Mike,
Mike, thanks for your input and I really appreciate your encourgemnt. I've been at this project for 1 1/12 years and I need some, especially with this last minute deep sand bed twist.

Link

[Link]

I would like to hear from more deep sand users and you experiences.

Another question. The fiji rock my friend gave me came is 3-4 years old and came out of a filthy tank(I asked him if he use any chemicals like cooper, he says no). It was taken out of the tank and dried. It also sat outside, was rained on. I tried to scrubb with fresh water best I could, also used a power washer.

The question, I want to fill the tank to test some last minute plumbing. I also think it might be good to let the rock set in the tank with circulating water for a couple weeks to let anything leach out. Can I do this test/rock leach cleaning with tap water, then drain completely?? Or should I just fill with RO water and if no plumbing problems use it. I'm sure some dead hair algea and what ever else are in cravases I could'nt clean.

Link

[DougL]

Link;

I re-used some previously live rock from my first tank. I left it out in a bucket of fresh water for the summer and changed the
water with a hose every 2 weeks.
This may not be a good way to do it, but it worked for me.

HTH;

DougL




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http://sites.netscape.net/douglxyzzy

[rshimek]

In thinking about algae, read what I said; not what you think I said.

Reefs are algal and cannot exist without algae - if nothing else no reef building coral can exist without zooxanthellae, an internal algae.

But there is more to it than that. Although coral reefs have been described as nutrient-poor, that statement only means DISSOLVED nutrients. The particulate flux over a reef is immense - and this is what the animals on the reef feed on. To make those animals thrive, you must feed.

In feeding, you will cause the release of dissolved nutrients - this will happen - the second law of thermodynamics nails you here. To have the corals, etc., assimilate say 1 gram, you must feed about 8--10 grams of food - their assimilation efficiency is about 10-15% and fixed by Momma Nature. You can't make it better.

This means there will be dissolved nutrient in your system, and in nature. This nutrient fosters the growth of algae EVERYWHERE, including inside coral rock, inside sediments, and on the surface of every thing (the standard gray-green color of dead coral is coralline algae, for example).

Rather than trying to fight this natural process, learn to facilitate it. Use some decorative algae that you can harvest to export excess nutrient, and get a good sand bed going to process the rest into tissue that can be used by other consumers. Eventually you will strike a balance between the additions (food) needed for good health of your organisms and the export (algae and some animals on occasion- as growth causes problems) that your system needs.

Cheers, Ron