Overwhelmed with plumbing...

[AquAsylum]

So I thought we'd have the whole system plumbed by now. Well, all we've done is think and go back and forth between ideas and get very confused about making sure our flows are balanced.

Right now we have a quiet one pump and our flow, given our head height, will be about 650 gph. We have a couple of small overflow boxes with 1" pumps. We are going to be using 2 30 gallon tanks- 1 for the sump and one for the refugium.

I find out tomorrow whether I passed the bar exam and if I did (aside from being able to stay in my job) I will get to sell a ton of study books and have enough cash to buy a sequence pump and new overflow boxes.

Regardless of which pump we use, how can we set up to circulate to the fuge and the sump and return to keep them all balanced? Should we run them on separate lines or join them somewhere? If we dump the fuge into the sump, how do we keep the sump from overflowing? We'll either have about 650 gph or 1300 gph on the return, so the numbers are proportional. I've been trying to find a diagram that we can base our plan on, but no luck so far. This is getting frustrating to the point where our concentration is lost...so many tubes!

Save us from a dead end (and from ourselves) :confused:

Laura

[Agu]

Laura,

You might want to read this article in RK magazine,

http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2003-01/gt/index.htm

and then this one,

http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2003-04/gt/index.htm

That'll give you the basics.

Good Luck,

Agu

[Agu]

ooops, missed part three,

http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2003-07/gt/index.htm

Agu

[AquAsylum]

Thanks, I'll get him right on that ;)

[Agu]

Originally posted by AquAsylum
Thanks, I'll get him right on that ;)


:lol:

Agu

[wahwoo]

This topic has had me stuped in the past too. When I first set up my overflow and return I was amazed that it worked with out flooding and stayed balanced.

Now I see it clearer and its simple.

Use only the same size tubing for everything. The drains and syphen tube are the limiting factors and will stay balanced if they are the same. With exception to the return line. This line gets an adjustable valve. If your pump is too strong you easily turn it down with the return line valve. Getting your balance this way is easy.

Forget all the math and gph flow rates. That is not what determines your ability to evenly circulate. The flow through evenly sized tubes from one section to the other and the adjustable return line is what brings balance and avoids an overflow.

With this in mind you can buy what ever pumps you want. Just make sure you are over powered so you can fine tune with the return line valves.

[wahwoo]

I think that is actually the answer to my other plumbing post. By using a stronger pump on the skimmer with a valve in the line I could adjust the out put flow rate. If I could get the same rate out of the skimmer as the flow into the sump, then I could run a direct line from skimmer out put into the refugium. Thus totaly separating the dirty tank water from the cleaner skimmed water.

The remaining factor would be how well the skimmer operates under the higher flow rate. I dont feel like playing with it any more so I just used a "U" tube to flow between sump and refug. I'll get back to this improvement at a later date.

But it shows that the whole plumbing issue comes down to same size tubes and valves on the output side of the pumps.

[Agu]

Dave,

Sorry but I have to disagree about the same sized plumbing concept. It's OK if you're not pushing max capacity. However if you're pushing limits drain/gravity lines need to be larger than return lines. A pump pushing water under pressure will have greater capacity in a given sized plumbing than the same plumbing draining due to gravity. In most cases the drain needs to be of a larger capacity to compensate for the lack of pump pressure.

jmo,ime,

Agu

[toccata]

My 2 cents...
I just got done plumbing in a fuge. The fuge source is from the sump via an IWAKI pump. The return from the fuge is gravity fed back into the sump. After reading and calling a number of folks, I used 1.5 PVC for both source and return. There were no holes in the fuge and so I was very nervous about drilling the holes and finding the flow would not work correctly. The return from the fuge is slightly angled downward to the sump. Both sump and fuge share space under the stand and are at the same level. I wanted the water level in the fuge to be higher then the sump. I had to drill a third hole this one in the sump for the return from the fuge. After all was done the flow was great and I found no real problems. I simulated losing power and with both pump to see if anything would over flow and water equalized perfectly. My fear was drilling holes and finding the hook up would not work properly. I have very limited space and HAD to get everything under the stand. The only problem I had was getting the bulkhead fittings to stop leaking.

Hope this helps.

[sandman12]

for my 135g i used 2-29g, 1 for fuge and one for sump. The water from the display comes down and empty's into the fuge (very little water though) the rest goes to the sump.

www.freewebs.com/jamesreef/
If u want we can set up a time for u to stop by and look at my set up if u'd like.

James

[Bono]

I'm a little confused as to what you mean by "small overflow boxes with 1" pumps"?

It may help to look at another set up because like wahwoo said sometimes when you see it it all makes sense.

[AquAsylum]

oops- pumps (in that sentence) = drain pipes

[wahwoo]

You're right Agu. Thats partly what I meant to refer to with the statement "With exception to the return line" but I didnt clearly explain myself. I did not however know exactly why the return is smaller.

Now that you explained, it seems clear that if the return was same size you would pump out more under presure than what was supplied by gravity feed and your sump/refuge would run too low or the main tank would overflow. Is that correct?

But even if that were the case, couldn't a return on same size tube be regulated with a valve to find a balance?

Please explain further. This topic seems to break down into a few simple elements but is so easily over complicated by factors that dont contribute to the balance.

[Agu]

"Now that you explained, it seems clear that if the return was same size you would pump out more under presure than what was supplied by gravity feed and your sump/refuge would run too low or the main tank would overflow. Is that correct?"

That is correct with a exception. If your return pump isn't creating too much pressure a similar sized drain could hypothetically keep up. The equation is also influenced by how much pressure water above the drain is creating. I just cleaned a return pump and the return line, and there is substantially better flow. So much so that water level in the tank rose more than a quarter inch ( good thing I had a quarter inch for it to rise ;) ). That rise created enough pressure on the drain to bring it into equilibrium.

"But even if that were the case, couldn't a return on same size tube be regulated with a valve to find a balance/"

Yes it could. But why pay for a pump and the electicity to run it if you're going to throttle it back to minimum flow ?

Now to toss in an extra ;). The return has no air bubbles if it's plumbed right, the drain has bubbles even if it's plumbed correctly with a vent. Air takes up space so therefore in theory a drain the same size as a return won't have the same capacity because the air bubbles reduce the efficiency of the drain line.

fwiw, imo, bni,

Agu

[AquAsylum]

I thought you guys would simplify this for me!! Talk amongst yourselves and then I'll check back for the consensus :)