Newest pico breakthrough?

[ninjafish]

Hi gang,
I think by now most of you have seen my impossibly-clean-but-rock-solid 2 gal cube:

http://reefcentral.com/gallery/data/500/46130reefcentral.jpg
Details here:
http://archive.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=553708

Well lately I have been planning a system that could be even smaller, while at the same time being even more healthy and stable.

My plan is to use a pico sized tank and a sump and connect the two via
a two channel medical pump like this:

http://www.innovativeaquatics.com/product_images/carefree.jpg

or this

http://websites.labx.com/rankin/pics/834.JPG

Instead of putting both inlets in the sump and both outlets in the main, I plan on putting one inlet tubing and one outlet tubing in each tank. That way as one channel draws water from the sump to the main, the other channel draws an equal amount of water from the main to the sump (hopefully the amounts will be precisely equal - if not though, small adjustments to water level can be made every once in a while.)

[ninjafish]

The unknown factor is how accurate and dependable this type of dosing pump is but the possibilities are tempting.
An extreme example would be drilling two holes in the bottom of a shot glass on your bookshelf and having it circulated with water from your 250 gal reef in the next room.

If you think its a crazy idea, go ahead and tell me - it will only make me want to build it more though :p

- Chad

[ninjafish]

Here is a 'shopped diagram of my goal. A 500ml flask reef:

http://reefcentral.com/gallery/data/500/46130Project1edit.JPG



Well? Any thoughts?

- Chad

[YodaHart]

hmmm...I'd love to see how you're going to get anything into that 500ml flask with such a small opening.

Also, since you won't really have an overflow, you would notice evaporation within the tank. Depending on how small the tank is it could be a pain to have to keep filling it up.

[mightymouse]

the dosing pumps hafta be exactly equal they are medical grade and when dosing medicines you need to be precise because with some medications even slight overdoses have bad consequences some even lethal so that would work perfectly

[ninjafish]

Originally posted by YodaHart
hmmm...I'd love to see how you're going to get anything into that 500ml flask with such a small opening.

That is the magic of it! My plan for aquascaping was to break live rock into a bunch of small rubble. Pour the sand in dry and then put a piece of rock in. Using those long tweezer things that they use to build ship-in-a-bottle's, put a dab of superglue on a rock and then press it against the piece that is already in the flask. When that has set, repeat the process until you have the size and shape you wanted. Then add small coral frags to the rocks and pour the water in. Maybe add a few ministars and a sexy shrimp or two. When the coral has filled out and you can't see the glue points, you would be left with a seemingly impossible reef-in-a-bottle. That would be something to see! You're right though, top off would need to be done manually. I wouldn't need to top off with fresh water because that will be done in my sump, but I would need to raise the level of seawater in the neck of the flask - I am not sure yet how often. A 1liter or 2liter flask might be better - more room in the neck of the flask for a couple days' worth of water fluctuation.

Originally posted by mightymouse
the dosing pumps hafta be exactly equal they are medical grade and when dosing medicines you need to be precise because with some medications even slight overdoses have bad consequences some even lethal so that would work perfectly

Thanks, that's what I'm hopeing.



- Chad

[mightymouse]

this sounds very interesting i cant wiat to see it but how are you going to frag the corals when they grow too big? and my hat is off to you i wouldnt have the cajones to spend that much money on something so far out also what will you do for lighting?

[ninjafish]

I would have to keep zoos and mushrooms - mostly because my lighting will not be very intense - mostly because cleaning the glass is going to be time consuming! When the corals are out of control and have crept accross the rock and the sand and are on the glass. And I am unable to trim them with a blade on a chopstick or something I will probably have to break the container and start over (the container will only be worth a couple bucks anyways). The pico reef can just be tossed into my 20gal tank where it will be a particularily interesting rock.

Here is my plan for lighting:

http://reefcentral.com/gallery/data/500/46130lighting.jpg

The flask reef will be on a turntable in a shelf with recessed sides and top. Hidden inside the lip will be walmart under the cabinet t5 fixtures, actinics on each side and daylight on the top. The actinics will be on one timer and the daylight will be on another timer. Baisically I will be lighting the interior of the shelf as opposed to lighting the flask. I know that I will need to experiment and find the right sized/shaped container so that I am able to provide the necessary maitenance with the tools that I have; however, I am really exceited about having the neck of the container smaller than the reef. I've always been captivated by those ship-in-a-bottles or that "Ripley's Believe It or Not" rooster that was in a glass jug with an opening only big enough for an egg to fit through :confused:

- Chad

[skipm]

Top off will need to be done on both of the tanks because there will be evaporation from both and the level in the display tank will not be constant like in the case of an overflow.
The second pump you showed the pic of is a medical infusion pump( the Imed) and will do wha you want it to do, the other I am not sure is as accurate.
Glass cleaning, and coral pruning will be a pain but I think you have already considered that.
I don't think you will need the overhead light, the side lights should be sufficient with the shape of the flask.
It is a pretty novel idea, I would be interested as to the outcome if you proceed with your plans. Good luck, Skip

[YodaHart]

What about cleaning coraline off the glass? That would be pretty much impossible.

[ninjafish]

Thanks skip,
Right now the cost of a two channel pump is what is delaying the start of the project. Wanted to do some brain storming with you guys while I save up. I'm glad that you think the top light isn't necessary- that will simplify things. I have thought about it, and still think that freshwater top offs will not be necessary in the pico as long as they are done in the sump. The pico is, for all intents and purposes, an 'open-system'. It will evaporate fresh water but as long as the salinity is correct in the sump it will be correct in the pico because the entire water volume is being cycled through the system. Kinda like how I add top up water to my 20gal sump and it still keeps my 23gal main the correct salinity.

Thanks for the insight everyone.
- Chad

[ninjafish]

Originally posted by YodaHart
What about cleaning coraline off the glass? That would be pretty much impossible.

Amen to that. I wasn't really worried about it because I've never been able to get coraline to grow on my glass (or anywhere else exposed to light), despite all my efforts.
Just my luck though, it would probably take off in this tank :p :mad:

- Chad

[won digity]

Instead of those medical pumps, you could try maybe an aqualifter? They should cost around $15 @ an lfs and you could add a valve to it if you need even less current.

[ninjafish]

I'm afraid I'm not familiar with aqualifters... do they pump and return equal amounts of water? $15... there's got to be a catch.

- Chad

[daFrimpster]

You could do top offs by pinching the suction tube until the level rose to where oyu wanted, couldn't you?
I don't think an aqualifter will match inflow and outflow like the medical pumps.

[ninjafish]

Frimpster,
Good idea about the top offs. Too bad that the aqualifter won't work - woulda been awesome to only put out $15... oh well... wouldn't have felt safe using something that operated via "flappers" anyways.

I got a pm from "swims withthe fishes" who brought up the point that with the gass exchange and oxygenation occuring in the sump, there isn't any reason why the pico flask couldn't be corked, which would reduce/prevent evaporation. Thanks for the tip bro!
Now I'm thinking, maybe I won't use a flask, maybe I'll use a round orb like a "snow globe".
Reef globe anyone? :cool: If I could find one that just unscrews from the base, I could build the sandbed and reef on the base, hold the whole thing underwater, get the airbubbles out of the orb, and then screw it on. I could then take the unit out and dry it off for the shelf. To do maitenence I would just hold the tank under water and unscrew the glass. The only worry would be people trying to shake it :lol: . It still all hinges on how precise the pump is - a faster or slower rate from one of the tubes would cause a higher or lower pressure fluctuation within the globe. I'll get looking at snowglobes now!
- Chad

[skipm]

I see what you are saying about maintaining salinity levels by just adding top-off water to the sump, what I was saying is that the return side is only going to match the drain side of the pump so any water that evaporates will show as the level being that much low in the flask. If you were to place a stopper in the top like you mentioned this would not be an issue.
On the lights if you had a problem with shadows at the top you could angle the lights in at the top to get light shining on the top of the reef. Skip

[YodaHart]

If you want a sphere-like aquarium, check this out:
http://www.fishstuff.net/marinelandbettasphere.php

[ninjafish]

Skip,
Now I see what you meant. I agree that whatever is lost to evap in the pico will drop the water level in that tank. I had considered that when I thought of using the neck of the flask as a reserve so that I wouldn't need to top it up every day but rather go a few days between adjustments. Now that I am thinking about a sealed container though, I don't need to worry about that as much.
I fired off a message to tanksalot to get some info on the pumps he sells.
Here is something I found:

http://www.nationalartcraft.com/images/sub-0055-06t.jpg

It is only 6" in diameter so that would be about 1/2 gallon. I'll let you know how it goes.

- Chad

[swims withthe fishes]

ahh i can post again.... so here's the 2nd pm i sent ninja earlier

i'm loving this project.....

if both lines(return and send) are always submerged under water at both ends then the globe will never drain even with no flow through the tubes. there-for you only need to have a pump at one end, and it doesn't matter which, allowing you to use a more cost effective dosing pump either to suck water out, or push it in and also eliminating the possibility of building pressure in the tank.
but if one line does leach or suck air you will drain the globe to the equal amount. so it might be wise to put a "just in case" plugged hole in the top/center of the globe cause that's where the air is gonna go.

chris.

[CPT. MURPHY]

very cool idea :)

[ninjafish]

Originally posted by swims withthe fishes
ahh i can post again.... so here's the 2nd pm i sent ninja earlier

i'm loving this project.....

if both lines(return and send) are always submerged under water at both ends then the globe will never drain even with no flow through the tubes. there-for you only need to have a pump at one end, and it doesn't matter which, allowing you to use a more cost effective dosing pump either to suck water out, or push it in and also eliminating the possibility of building pressure in the tank.
but if one line does leach or suck air you will drain the globe to the equal amount. so it might be wise to put a "just in case" plugged hole in the top/center of the globe cause that's where the air is gonna go.

chris.

Are you saying that as long as both lines are submerged, and the pico is enclosed, I would only need to pump water in and as a result water would automatically be forced out of the other line? That seems like it would work.... even if some air got in wouldn't it just form a bubble at the top but continue to function properly? I could clear it out the next time I did maitenance....
I think you/r on to something!

- Chad

[Agu]

Since we're getting extravagant here....

If you drilled it and ran a piece of rigid tubing up to the height that you wanted your water level you'd just need a simple pump to get water into the tank, and evap would be restricted to the sump. However you'd also need an anti siphon valve if your input line was too low. You didn't need that on your current tank because it is a closed loop.

So run two tubes up through the bottom, one as a drain and one with an L bend at the tip as your return. Instead of putting pieces of lr in the tank then use diy argocrete to create the live rock and at the same time completely enclosing all but the ends of the plumbing. with practice you could make a pretty realistic piece of fake lr. You could also add dye to the wet mixture so it looks like coraline algae on the rock . Vary the dye amounts and you'll vary the color intensity


fwiw,

Agu

[Nataku]

i would just cork the flask. all the evaporation will be from the sump. and the sump would supply nutrients / remove waste. besides no worry about overflow, too. :)

[ninjafish]

Good posts guys. I think that swtf's idea of an enclosed container means that I don't have to have an overflow and can still do it with only one pump - what's more it will be completely safe (as long as both ends remain submerged).
This would function like a closed loop except halfway through the loop there will be a glass bubble that you can see into.
I am talking with a company that builds custom "water globes" i'm hoping that they have something that unscrews off the bottom and doesn't need to be resealed with silicone each time.
Keep up the good ideas

- Chad

[skipm]

Building on Agus idea, you could also drill LR and have the tubes come up through the center of the reef structure.
Also, if you use the one pump method then you don't have to spend the $$$ on an accurate pump because no matter how much it does pump the same amount will return. One of the Aqualifters could be a good pump for this since accuracy is no longer that important.
Macroalgaes could also be added for o2, I base this on the biospheres I have seen with a tiny piece of macro and several of the little red shrimp found in volcanic caves, the macro lives off of the shrimps waste and the shrimp off of the macros waste. Thsi would lessen the worries about gas exchange some.

[mightymouse]

those are usually brine shrimp in those little orbes they are crazy expensive though like a few hundred dollars for a good sized one

[daFrimpster]

I have an Ecosphere. It is egg shaped and about 5 inches tall. I have had it for 26 months. The two shrimps are alive and well still. Pretty cool. I tihnk my wife paid about 100 bux for it.

[ninjafish]

Update:
I just bought this pump off of ebay. It is a milton roy metering pump and is supposed to pump from 0.002 to 8 gallons per hour. It is nice that it is adjustable and the higher settings should give me a pretty decent turnover rate. If this project doesn't work out, I can still use this pump to dose kalk in my big tank.

http://images.auctionworks.com/fullView.asp?img=http://images.auctionworks.com/hi/63/62589/112904-19.jpg


Still waiting to hear back on a tank.

- Chad

[Ronald]

If you are going to seal the container you need only one pump to circulate and have a stopper with 2 outlets. a short inlet attached to the pump and a longer drain tube (to about 1-2 inches below the top) will act as a drain/siphon to control water level. i had a similar system as a kalk reactor for 4 years, never overflowed h20 level was constant. Good luck

Ron

[vanmo92]

135 dollars yikes. but it would work good

[dantodd]

also, if you keep the bottle completely full and rely upon your "reservoir" for oxygen exchange you won't get any evaporation in the display.

[ninjafish]

Hi all!
I didn't realize that people had started up this old thread. Incase you were wondering about my outcome, I did end up using the metering pump and connected it to a "water globe" via the pumps tubing. Here is a link to a couple photos:

http://www.nano-reef.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=57470&perpage=&pagenumber=1

The tank ran all right but proved to be a major pain on maitenance.

Cheers,

- Chad

[mightymouse]

throw some zoo frags int here and you got urself an AMAZING little tank you could have the first pico tank of the month in rc history if i were you id splurge and make it a PPE globe