Problem with two year old 6 line wrasse?

[Martyn]

I 'm not sure what to do or what is the problem. :(
He is nearly 4" including the tail and really good colour so I presume up until now he has been well happy and feed well.
He has been over the last couple of weeks been acting a bit more stranger than normal.
His belly was slightly more swollen than normal and swimming more than normal with his head down tail up and twitching more than normal.
But seemed like he was hunting for food as he was finding food.
I assumed he had just been eating more than normal.
Today I noticed around the anal and abdomen area swelled up with a red thread like thing just poking of the anus does not look normal.
He is now swimming a lot head standing and some times upside down near the water surface he also swims in circles he also twitches and shimmys.
He still swims normally at times and soon darts into cover if I get to close to or move to fast or the flame occasionally darts at him.
I am guessing he has some kind of internal worm OR could it be an internal fungus infection?
His colour is normal and no sign of anything external no dark nodules under the skin scales seem normal?
His abdomen may be filled with fluid?
I am guessing and need help :(
I do not know how I am going to catch him in the 150g Aquarium with 75 kilos of rock I can isolate a tank off in the propagating system if I can catch him.
He was feeding yesterday did not feed when I fed the flame angel and purple tang.
So far the flame and tang seem and look fine but I am concerned this may be infectious.
if its worms what treatment is best and can it be used in a reef aquarium same applies if it is an internal fungus.
Thank you for any help or advice any one can give me.
Martyn


[This message has been edited by Martyn (edited 09-16-2000).]

[billsreef]

The prospects are grim I'm afraid. Bloating like that usually is the result of gasses building up inside the abdominal cavity due to an internal bacterial infection. The head down posture is also indictitive of a bouyancy problem that would result from such a gas build up. Such internal problems are best treated with an antibiotic feed in order to get the antibiotics into the fishes bloodstream. Of course this will not work if the fish has stopped eating. In this case about the only possibility left is a bath in a tissue soluable antibiotic such as nitrofuran or tetracyline. Unfortunately I know of no reef safe treatments available to use if you can't catch him, the antibiotic in the food would probably come the closest.

How the infection started is another matter. A secondary infection to internal parasites is a good possibility, see if you can get a fecal sample to check under your microscope. Of course if the fish does not make it be sure and do a necropsy to check for any parasites that might be a concern for the other fish.

HTH

------------------
Bill

If damsels grew as big as sharks, the sharks would run in fear!
My dive photos (http://hometown.aol.com/billsreef/)
ICQ 56222784

[Martyn]

Antibiotics?
Which ones?
Chloramphenicol (Chloromycetin)
Erythromycin ?
Or what is available from pet stores (LFS) that May help ETC

Thank YOU BILL :)
You have reinforced my thoughts on this.
I have done some reading up on it the closest I could find was this what do you think ?
If the fish dies one way or other I shell examine him uder the microscopes and do some Photomicrography of what I find.
Thanks again Bill.

The nearest I can find to the symptoms he is showing are these of internal Fungus disease.
Fungus diseases in fish, especially internal infections, are not uncommon and are very difficult, if not impossible, to cure.
internal fungus infections, are usualy caused by Ichthyosporidium hoferi.
As this fish has perfect water conditions and has a good diet nutrition these where not the stressing factor.
I think the stressing factor was the flame angel he does from time to time chase the six line about but up until now the sixline has seemed fine over the nearly two years that these two have been together.
many fish seem able to contain this parasite and evidently live for many years with this tiny parasitic time bomb ticking away inside there vital organs.
stress may weaken the defenses of the fish and realease the fungus to destroy the spleen, liver, brain, and other organs.
SYMPTOMS:
Of Internal fungus infections do not appear until the disease is well advanced.
(the symptoms that have matched what I have seen in my fish)
the infection soon passes to the nervous system and causes loss of equilibrium.
the fish swims in random circles often swimming upside down.
this gives this disease the common name of staggers disease and whirling disease.
the abdomen may also fill with fluid.
there is nothing that can be done for the fish in the later stages of the disease.

Hence the nearly frozen water to kill the fish to put the fish out of its pain.

Martyn



[This message has been edited by Martyn (edited 09-16-2000).]

[billsreef]

Hi Martyn,
As usuall you've done your homework :D
Chloramphenical is an excellent antibiotic if you can get it, it is suposedly off the market in the US. Erythomycin is not effective at the high pH of a marine tank so not a good choice. The Furans, id nitrofuran is good, Neomycin is another good choice as are tetracycline and it's derivitives. If you can get antibiotics from a pharmacy instead of a LFS they are most likely to be better. The key is to find tissue soluble broad spectrum antibiotics, particularly ones effective against grahm negative bacteria.

------------------
Bill

If damsels grew as big as sharks, the sharks would run in fear!
My dive photos (http://hometown.aol.com/billsreef/)
ICQ 56222784

[Martyn]

Bill you are top man :D
I now have a plan of action and alternatives.
Thank you this gives me a plan instead of getting up set about it.
I hope you do not mind but I have cut and pasted some of your very helpful advice on to the other threads on other boads that I had started on this subject and have given full reconition that this helpful advice has come from you and not myself.
I hope you do not mind I think it could help some others on those board should they have similar problems.

Highest Regards
Martyn

[billsreef]

Glad to be of help. I don't mind your cutting and pasting as it is in the same spirit that I post here ;)

------------------
Bill

If damsels grew as big as sharks, the sharks would run in fear!
My dive photos (http://hometown.aol.com/billsreef/)
ICQ 56222784

[Martyn]

Bill A pleasing Update so far :)
So far so good my 6 line wrasse is swimming much more normal and his stomach is not as swollen.
Some thing came to my mind since the info from Ron Shimek on his tests on food in particular Golden pearl.
I started adding them in my feeding schedule about a month ago and wonder if they are to rich for the 6 line???
To get the antibiotic mentioned above I would have to capture the 6 line take him to the vet that has these antibiotics for him to legally subscribe them Well to catch the 6 line and every thing else including extra stress etc No way.
The other treatments from the LFS they do not have them :(
Anyway below is what I have been doing since my last post in this thread.

Characteristics of the Antibacterial Substances and their avctivity of algae's.

I have had no luck on capturing my sixline wrasse he is not larthargic one bit.
So it looks like his in there to stay.
I do not want to risk foods soaked in antibiotics so I have been thinking hard what else I can do to try and aid him.
Two things I have decided to do.
(1) As I stopped introducing iodine some months ago I have decided to start adding again and testing with a salifert test kit as I use to do before just for the duration of trying to get my 6 line well again.
And see if this helps any.
(2) I remembered reading about antibiotics derived from marine algae's I have plenty of Caulerpa (racemosa) and some Rhodophyceae (red algae)

From Baensch Marine Atlas
Characteristics of the Antibacterial Substances and their avctivity.

Acrylic acid.
A highly soluble, unsaturated acid that is produced by oxidizing acrolein.

Carbonyl compounds.
Liquid and evaporative complex compounds formed with a carbonyl group bonded to iron, nickel, or cobalt.

Terpenes.
Unsaturated hydrocarbon liquid found in essential oils.
Many compounds exist with highly differing chemical structures.

Fatty acids.
Various kinds and structures.

KATAYAMA (Japan) was the first scientist (1953) that isolated the above mentioned substances from marine algae's.
They proved to particularly active against Escherichia coli (E coli bacteria) and staphylococcus aureus.

Acrylic acid is a strong antibiotic with a broad spectrum.
The use of Caulerpa which I have loads in my propagation system now introduced temporary in to my show aquarium.
(1) may produce compounds against pathogenic bacteria.
(2) It could also give protection to the skin, intestines, and gills of fishes that is granted by the plant excretions.

I decreased the lighting period to encourage secretion of racemosa.
I also squeeze a hand full twice a day and add the juice to the aquarium.
I also soak some food in the juices.

I will take notes and observe all life and every thing in the in the aquarium.
Well its worth a try if the fish recovers it will be good but who can say if what I am trying will of helped the fish if it does recover or would it have recovered with out doing anything.
Still I will have to wait and see the full outcome.
But so far every thing in the aquarium look well and the 6 line seems so far to be recovering.

Martyn

[Martyn]

YES YES Punches the air in delight. :D :D
Just had to report what has happend to my hardy little six lined wrasse.
His back to normal stomach normal swimming normal it's great to see. :)
Don't know if he would have recoverd with out my aid but the main thing is he seem to be better "fantastic". :D
Oh And I should add every thing in the system seems "FINE"
Martyn
BTW Comments please on the method I used and your conclusions.


[Edited by Martyn on 09-26-2000 at 07:57 AM]

[billsreef]

Fantastic!!
I all ways like good news :)
Your methods and reasoning with the algaes do make sense. I would be most interested if you or any one else can duplicate those results. I shall certainly give it a try myself. While it seems we have readier acess to antibiotics in the US I am not sure how much longer that will last.

Bill

[FMarini]

Guys:
As Bill mentioned I suspect your fish got a parasite(or worms)(did you say that?), and the secondary bacterial infection was the clincal manifestation, resulting in the swelling/bouency problems. But i question the plants being the solution, and suspect the time required for a rigorous antibody reponse generated by the fish as a real solution. There are many toxic compounds found in plants, including alkaloids (prevent animals from eating them), and this acrlyic acid (as you mention) as suchs some of them can and do kill bacteria. But if I'm not mistaken 6-line wrasses don't partake of much plant material, and the only way these antibacterial agents would be effective is if the fish got a decent concentrated dose.Fish don't absorb liquids from the water directly(but it might be effective against extrenal parasites, and unless plant squeezing can release this chemical (since many of the chemical are found concentrated in the tissues), and thru extraction are released or are you implying that the copepods your 6-line is eating contains lots of plantmaterial?
However in humans at least; anti-immune (B-cell) response take approx 10-14 days to occur, and T-cell responses occur w/in the first 3 days. So if I read your post correctly your fish was acting werid for about 1 week, then having clincally observable symptoms for 3plus days, and now its back to normal.
My point is that well established animals who maintain feeding responses, are capable of fighting off infections, and probably do (a good reason why ich is so prevalent in newly introduced fish, and not in established fish). SO a big congrats Martyn on keeping this fish so robust.
my opinion
frank

[Edited by FMarini on 09-26-2000 at 11:26 PM]

[Martyn]

About a week or so of different behaviour than normal before swelling/bouency problems
Some kind of internal parasite or worms I think.

09-16-2000 02:41 PM
The secondary bacterial infection was the clincal manifestation, resulting in the swelling/bouency problems

09-22-2000 03:26 PM
First signs of slight improvement

09-25-2000
Still had a swollen belly and swimming problem but not as bad as previously.

09-26-2000
Back to normal.

Frank.
Very good opinion that makes a lot of sense to me thanks for the view.
I soaked brine shrimp in the squeezed juices very little plant material if any soaked into the brine shrimp.
The 6 line wrasse did spend a lot of time in the stands of racemosa when he had swelling/bouency problems and does not go into the stands and stay in them now? .
I was never sure if the fish was helped by the algae's or if he healed himself I think after you views on this subject that the fish healed its self.
How do you think he picked up the worms or parasites are they naturally in the aquarium and he eat them and could he get a problem again if he does do I do nothing or do the same as I did?
It is so good to see him back to his normal ways again.
I think it is worth looking more into algae's and there benefits all round in the reef Aquarium.
Martyn