Mandarin Breeding

[Dwayne]

I have a 125 that is supporting a plump and active mandarin. Could/Should I attempt to establish a pair for breeding? As this been done before and and to what level of success?

I guess a good reference book would be in order, suggestions?

Dwayne

[billsreef]

A 125 should be able to support a pair. Breeding is the easy part, if they are fat and happy they will do what comes natural. Unfortunately they are pelagic spawners which makes collection of the eggs and raising larvae difficult. There was recent mention of some success writen in a german publication.

------------------
Bill

If damsels grew as big as sharks, the sharks would run in fear!
My dive photos (http://hometown.aol.com/billsreef/)
ICQ 56222784

[Dwayne]

Bill - Thanks for the reply.

Any information on the article (name, author,etc...)?

Dwayne

[billsreef]

Best I can come up with is www.datz.de/ (http://www.datz.de/)
Larry tried it on Alta Vistas translation site without much luck though. I didn't fare any better. If you speak german you have a chance. Unfortunately I don't know any one that speaks german.

[Dwayne]

The german is not a problem. I imported my wife and two oldest kids from Germany. :)

Thanks for the link.

Dwayne

[billsreef]

Cool, you'll have to report back to us with the translation.

------------------
Bill

If damsels grew as big as sharks, the sharks would run in fear!
My dive photos (http://hometown.aol.com/billsreef/)
ICQ 56222784

[Dwayne]

Anybody have a copy of the article?

Datz wants a fee for the article. I don't mind paying for the info, but I incurr 'costs' for translations. :)

I could always provide JimHobbs(I think it was him) a copy to send to everybody. ;)

Dwayne

[Doug]

Hi Everyone,

With all this talk about Mandarin breeding you have peaked my interest.

Do any of you think is would be possible to to use a tank as small as a 30g long to breed Mandarins if I load it up with live rock and a refugium?

Here is what I was thinking as far as equipment:

30g long tank.
At least 60 pounds of live rock.
A refugium with a dsb and 10-20 pounds of live rock.
I don't think I would use a skimmer.
The only fish in the tank would be the two Mandarins.

Would is be possible or should I not even try this because a 30g tank is just too small.

TIA

Doug

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Doug's Reef and Fish Page (http://38.222.244.200/dougw)

[Dwayne]

What a bonehead I am. :rolleyes:

Did a better search on the site and I came up with the article I wanted.

Thanks again for the tip.

Dwayne

[Larry M]

Well, don't hold out on us, Dwayne. I want to know what's in that damn article!!
:)

------------------
Larry M

"My Dad could build--or fix--anything. Just give him a hammer, a saw, a piece of wire, and a stick. Then get the hell out of the way."
In response to the question, "Where did you learn how to do that?"

See my tanks at Northern Reef (http://www.reefcentral.com/northernreef/index.htm)

[Dwayne]

Larry - the article talks about breeding and raising mandarins. I thought you'd have known that. :D

Dwayne

[This message has been edited by Dwayne (edited 08-26-2000).]

[Dwayne]

I did find and read the article from Datz Online, which is at www.datz.de (http://www.datz.de)

With my limited translation skills and a lot of help from the professional translator (my wife), I put together a short summary of the article:

--------------------------------------

From – Datz.de

Title - Nachzucht des Mandarinfischs gelungen

Author - Wolfgang Mai

Shortly after lights out, the mandarin start their mating sequence. Searching each other out and starting at the bottom they swam in circles upwards in the water column. They repeated this several times. You have to watch the fish closely because it will look like they are mating when they are not. Then one of these practice sessions ends up being the real thing. It is important to be ready to remove the eggs and sperm immediately to prevent them from being skimmed or eaten. The author reccommends turning wavemakers or PH off.

For the next 72 hours the egg/sperm mix was kept in a 2 liter bottle. It is important to keep the eggs in motion, but only a gentle motion. ( In this stage and the next, the author reccommends keeping the eggs/larvae from settling on the sides or bottom of the tank.) In the first 24 hrs half of the eggs did not develop.

After 72 hours the larvae were put in a 15 liter tank. The water makeup included 5 liters of green algae broth and 5 liters of aquarium water. The author fed Euplotes, Vorticella and Copepods, which had been cultivated for months before.

After one week there were about 100 young fish swimming throughout the green algae broth. The green algae broth had visibility of about 10 centimeters, which made seeing the fish difficult. After the second week, the author added Brachionus (I think this is Brachiopod), but the Brachionus ate much of the algae depleting food for the young fish. And the young fish did not accept the Brachionus as a food source.

After 14-18 days the mandarin fish starting living on the substrate as a brown worm-like animal. Their movement was of a stop/start nature. Moving to a new place on the substrate and staying there for a minute or two before moving again.

The author now has 20 healthy young fish. (The losses were due to non-development, larger copepods feeding on the larvae, loss of young in removing the Brachionus, and other such factors).

After 16-18 days the young fish starting eating Artemia Nauplius. The young had special interest in the Salinenkrebschen (brine shrimp) on the substrate. The artemien and copepods had to be removed when they grew too large or they would try to eat the young fish.

The first colors started showing in the fourth week. Not typical mandarin color, but patterns with a brown background.

The green color started showing from the second month on. The fish at this time were 1-1.5 centimeters. At this time the fish started having territory fights and a seperation or dispersion into other tanks became necessary. At two months the fish were 2 centimeters. As the fish grew it became necessary to separate the fish more and more. As the fish were seperated it was important to provide hiding places and peaceful tankmates.

--------------------------------------


What's a Brachiopod?


Dwayne

[Larry M]

I don't know what a brachiopod is, but I got tears in my eyes reading it. *sniff* So cool!! :D I hope someone on this side of the pond can repeat that success now.

------------------
Larry M

"My Dad could build--or fix--anything. Just give him a hammer, a saw, a piece of wire, and a stick. Then get the hell out of the way."
In response to the question, "Where did you learn how to do that?"

See my tanks at Northern Reef (http://www.reefcentral.com/northernreef/index.htm)

[billsreef]

Dwayne,
Thanks for that translation, be sure and thank your wife for us! Hopefully the price was not to steep :D That was fantastic reading.

That might just my next project! Already have a pair of mandarins, just need some time and some cultures.

Doug,

It might be possible in a 30 long the way you are planning. Also be sure and include a DSB inside the tank. IMO the life in the DSB is just as important or maybe more so than the LR. My current pair of Mandarins are in a 40 breeder with DSB, LR rubble, and plastic eggcrate shelves, the tank is used for coral propagation. They share the tank with a foxface and a damsel, the LS was very active for about a year before the mandarins were added.

------------------
Bill

If damsels grew as big as sharks, the sharks would run in fear!
My dive photos (http://hometown.aol.com/billsreef/)
ICQ 56222784

[Doug]

Bill,

Thanks for the input. I was thinking about a dsb in the tank also. I was thinking since the mandarins would be the only fish in the tank they would have a good chance.

The only hard part is trying to talk my wife into letting me put another tank in the house. :rolleyes:

Thanks

Doug

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Doug's Reef and Fish Page (http://38.222.244.200/dougw)

[Martyn]

HI guys Here is a link to the Phylum brachiopod's
http://homepage.cistron.nl/~biosyssm/centre.htm

Dwayne
Thanks for the transalation this is great stuff hey.

Martyn



[This message has been edited by Martyn (edited 08-27-2000).]

[Dwayne]

Any suggestions on where to MO a male mandarin?

There are none to be had in the Twin City area.

Dwayne

[jimhobbs]

Premium aquatics shows a mandarine on their weekly list...Click Here and scroll down (http://www.premiumaquatics.com/Merchant2/merchant.mv?Screen=CTGY&Store_Code=PA&Category_Code=Weeklist)
E-mail jason and see if he can sex it...Best regards...jim

[Dwayne]

Just wanted to update this thread, hope ya'll don't mind.

Oct 4 - I finally found a male mandarin on a recent trip to Chicago. Tropi-Quatics Pet Centre in Lombard had one and boxed it up for the plane ride home.

Oct 9 - After a few days of socializing and getting to know one another, I witnessed the pair mating.:D;):D It was really kool. The 'dance' was just as had been described. (It was probably the excitement of Randy Moss catching TD passes that set the mood). Unfortunately, I did not anticipate such a quick response and I was not ready to capture the 'fruits' of thier labor. I'm ready for next time.

Thanks for letting me ramble.

Dwayne

[Vern]

Congratulations!!!:D:D

Good luck on next attempt!!

[billsreef]

Cool!
Definately keep us up to date.

[fish farmer]

Hi,

I'm fairly new here, but I read this thread back when it was first posted and I wasn't a member and wanted to clarify that the article probably means that the first food to feed the newly-hatched larvae should be rotifers, not brachiopods. Brachionus is the genus name for a specific type of marine rotifer. Brachiopods are sessile/attached organisms and are definitely too large to feed to larvae.

You might have already figured this out, if so, I apologize, just wanted to make sure.

I'd definitely be interested in hearing about your mandarin pair and their activities! :-)

[Dwayne]

Thanks all for the support. Never thought I'd be excited about seeing fish spawn. :eek:

The pair went through the exercise again tonight. I was able to video tape it. I am in the process of editing the tape (young viewers) and posting it. Unfortunately, tonight's activities did not end successfully. :( See what happens tomorrow.

Fish Farmer - you are correct. The brachiopods are for a week or so after the mating sequence. For the initial food, if I get to that point, I will use cryopaste.

Dwayne

[Dwayne]

YEAH!!! :D :D :D :D :D

Last night (10-14-00), I was able to syphon out some eggs(about 40-50, alot of eggs were not syphoned out) and put them in a cup of tank water with an air stone. This evening I checked on the eggs and...They have tails! :D They are even moving around the cup in a typical mandarin stop/start motion.

Tomorrow I'll add some green water and the eggs er.. larvae to a goldfish bowl for the next step.

Also, if anyone is interested I have a 1 minute 2mB video file available at http://www.usinternet.com/users/dsapp/video1.avi The video is of the mandarin pair going through the mating sequence. It is low quality, but still recognizable.
(Some folks have experienced problems viewing the video because of compression compatibilities. :( )

Just me rambling again.

Dwayne

[Agu]

Dwayne, Way to go!! Couldn't view the video, something to do with compression? Glad I got to see it at the club meeting. If you need tanks or equipment to raise those babies let me know. I have a whole bunch of tanks,airpumps,etc, that you can borrow.

Agu

[Dwayne]

Another Update. (I hope yall dont mind me making these updates, maybe somebody somewhere will find it useful.)

OK. Never attempt something important with something unknown. Yesterday, I lost all the larvae I had grown from eggs. Blasted heater quit working and water dropped to the low 70's. That batch is history.

All is not lost, thanks to an active pair, I was able to get more eggs tonight (10-17-00). I went out this afternoon and bought a new heater and a better container for the eggs. (I just don't think a sports sippy cup was the right choice for the long term.)

So, I begin again. :D

Agu - thanks for the offer, I might take you up on that if I can get a batch far enough along.

Dwayne

[Larry M]

Thanks for the updates, Dwayne. Fascinating stuff. :) I finally got a chance to view the video, way cool.

[Biosystems]

I like Larry am interested in your journal. Please keep us posted.

Thanks,
Tim

[aLittletank]

thanks for the updates!

Allen

[Doug]

Hi Dwayne,

That is awesome! The video is great!

Thanks for sharing that with us and thanks to the happy couple for letting us watch.

Please keep us updated.

Doug

[Runic]

How about spotted mandarins? Does anyone have any information on these guys? I KNOW I have a male and female pair in my reef and they're in need of a Jenny Craig diet it seems. I have never noticed any such behavior from these two. The only odd behavior I would say they display is when the male is being followed by the female from one rock to another in that stop and go motion. It happens at night when the daylights and actinics go off.

WOuld it be safe to assume they would display the same type of behavior as their green mandarin counterparts?

[billsreef]

I would expect the spotted mandarins to behave simularly to the psychedelic ones. Breeding behavior usually occurs at twilight, try leaving just the actinics on for an hour or two after the daylights go off. Also they seem more inclined to do this in a deep tank, apparently they need enough water column to do their mating dance.

[Dwayne]

Water movement seems to be a motivator as well.

I noticed if I turn off the powerheads and return pump, they seem to spawn. They may only use the upper half of the tank.

I'm going after batch #5. I'm learning things as I go, unfortunatley I'm loosing batches of fish. :(

When, I have something substantial, I'll update this thread.

Dwayne

[Phillstone]

You go..... Dwayne blaze us a trail.

Phill

[Merlin]

update?

[Dwayne]

Update? Three words - Trial And Error.:D

I've been able to get eggs to hatch on a continuous basis (every time I try anyway). The problem I'm having is getting the larvae to eat. I tried artemia, they proved to be too large (should've seen that coming). Next I tried rotifers; unfortunately, I not well experienced with them. I'm learning. I believe the concentration was too small and made it difficult for the larvae to find them.

Now, after reading Joyce Wilkerson's book for the 15th time and corresponding with other professionals, I set up a culture station. This should provide me more rotifers to provide a higher concentration to feed the larvae.

As everyone I spoke to or read information from has said, one rotifer in your algae culture can and will multiply and eat that culture - some things some people just have to learn for themselves. (I have new cultures started);)

I have also improved on water chemistry by making it more uniform throughout the system. I did notice that I had a reduction in egg hatching by having too high a salinity or too low. Seems to work good between 30-37 ppt, this is just my experience and does not mean it's the only way. Joyce Wilkerson's book recommends a lower salinity. I chose something closer to my tanks parameters.

I'll be trying another batch as soon as I get enough algae and rotifers to provide more than I could ever imagine the larvae eating.

Just more of my rambling.

Dwayne

[Flame*Angel]

If you're using the Windows Media Player to view the movie be sure you have the latest version and go under "Tools" and "Options" and be sure that "Enable automatic codec download" is selected and when you try to view the movie the player will download what it needs to play the movie.

The movie is a bit small but you can clearly see the two mandarins doing the mating dance - very beautiful!

[chet-tonja]

I read several posts mentioning a DSB for success with mandarins and I couldn't figure out what it is. Could you please help the misinformed like myself? Thanks

[Merlin]

DSB=Deep Sand Bed

[billsreef]

[welcome]

The key to the DSB is the various worms and other critters that make it a home. It is this life in the sand bed that the Mandarins eat. There are some good links to articles on sand beds in the RC library, the link to the library is at the top of this page.

[Dwayne]

Update.

As with all things in life, we cannot appreciate the ups without knowing the downs.

After spending the last month learning and practicing to raise microalgae, rotifers, and brine shrimp, I now have enough 'culture' developed to support raising larvae and small fry.

Unfortunately, my female Mandarin has disappeared, missing for 18 hrs now. I suppose a pic on the back of zooplankton bottles might be in order.;) I suspect the large (5" legspan)and only Sally Light Foot in the tank to be the culprit. It is somewhat disappointing, the pair were spawning every third night, if not every other night. I'll give her another day to re-appear. If not, guess it's off to the LFS for a female Mandarin and hope the new pair is as active as the original.

FWIW

Dwayne

PS - Anybody want a SLF crab?

[billsreef]

:( bummer.
Sally's do tend to get large and problematic unfortunately.

BTW how are collecting the eggs?

[Dwayne]

Collecting Eggs: Siphon them out.

Explanation:
My tank has 2 250 MH lights set to come on and go off at different intervals. (1 on-2 on-1 on). When the first light goes out, I de-activate the timer for the second light. This leaves the second light on indefinately. Then I pull the plug on all powerheads and return pumps. This allows the water to sttle down to a point of minimum movement.

Now with the water calm and the "sun setting" the pair would start dancing. (It is not important to stop water movement for the pair to spawn, I watched them spawn under normal tank conditions) When the eggs are released it is close to the water surface, but the fish can create quite a stir during the action. This causes some eggs to "float" down into the water column, given a couple of minutes they do float back to the surface.

With the eggs floating on the surface, it is easy to siphon the eggs out with a turkey baster. Then squirt them into a holding container.

Dwayne

[Northern Reef]

Very cool stuff, Dwayne. Thanks again for the updates. I should really come up and see the action some night. :)

My limited experience with Mandarins has taught me that they are very--make that very susceptible to gettting into overflows, drain pipes, etc. Before you buy another female I would go over your entire system with a fine-toothed comb to make sure she is really gone.

But then, I'm sure the Mn Mandarin King already knew that. :D

Good luck,

[Dwayne]

Yeah Larry, I stuck my hands down in each of the overflows and felt around. Looked as best I could with a flashlight in each overflow and checked all the overflow tubes. I checked the sump, the skimmer, and the return lines just in case. I moved half my rock work looking for her. Looked all around the stand in the event she was carpet surfing.
NOTHING!

5 minutes ago I was in the stand adjusting my moonlight timer. I look down in the sump and BOOYA BABY!!!!:D There she is, happily swimming around in the sump. There's nothing in that section of the sump but a heater and a Mag7 for the skimmer, don't know why I didn't see her before. Missing for 48hrs. Go figure.

Dwayne

P.S. - I think I'm still pulling that SLF out. He just looked too guilty.

[Northern Reef]

hee hee, good news. I had the same thing happen to me once, only it was three weeks before I found him. Sneaky little devils. :)

[dragon0121]

Hi Dwayne!
Great thread by the way! The future of SW fish and Mandarins in captivity are in the hands of people like you!

There is a similar thread on Clownfish (don't remember the type) going on Aquatstink - ooops - I mean Aqualink, from a person who goes by SRADMIN. He had his little tikes make it to like day 30+ and they all died of sudden fright syndrome. Don't know if this is a problem in Mandarins, but a heads up never hurt! :D HUFA! HUFA! HUFA! Faint chant heard round the world by the owners of small tanks full of little fish! :D SRADMIN also had a period of trials and tribulations trying to grow microalgea and raise rotifers, you might contact him if you would like to converse with another person on this, then again you might have this stage licked!

Damn! If it takes, like a 100lbs of rock to support 1 mandarin, foodwise what will it take to feed 20-30 hungry juveniles! :eek:

[Dwayne]

As requested, here's an update (of sorts).

I'm still having success hatching eggs. I did have a couple of batches not hatch, like none, nada, zip. I don't know why that was, but the eggs are hatching once again as before.

I've had correspondence with Dr. G. Joan Holt about her studies on "Alternative Prey Items", replacing rotifers and artemia as first foods due to the low levels or non-existent levels of PUFAs. I'm intrigued by this idea, as it would make the first food closer to what I believe is the preferred food in the wild. It also might provide an answer to my problems with rotifers, like doing something other than rotifers (I'm really developing a dislike for rotifers, which stems from them constantly crashing). Dr. Holt also did a study on the effect of salinity on raising larvae/fry, which I was glad to see the benchmarks I established met her findings. Sometimes luck is better than skill.:)

Once again, just me rambling.

Dwayne

[Staceon]

Hello Dwayne,

Thanks for the update! A couple of questions:

What are you using to put the sperm and eggs in once you remove them?

Is rotifers the only option here? Are there any other types of zooplankton that would work? Does it have to be zooplankton?

How often are you still getting eggs, and any idea how many?

[Dwayne]

To gather eggs, I turn all watermovement devices (pumps, powerheads, fans, etc.) off. Then they do the dance. The eggs are released into the water and float to the top. I then use a turkey baster to 'syphon' the eggs out of the water. I empty the baster into a 2-liter bottle with part of the top removed. I then put this 2-liter bottle into a container of heated water. This keeps the water the same temp as the tank. A couple of rigid airlines provide circulation within the 2-liter bottle. I'm able to gather eggs every 2-3 days. I would say the number of eggs probably averages around 100. Hatch rates vary from 30% to 80%, excluding a couple of batches that did not hatch.

Since the larvae/fry are predators the first food needs to be live and small enough to be caught and eaten. I tried artemia - too large, Golden Pearls - no response. So rotifers seem to be the answer. The documentaion I've found says to use rotifers. I think ciliates might work as well, but then there is the whole culture issue again. I'm going to order live rotifers and resting rotifers again. Maybe I can get some to live long enough to at least watch a larvae eat one time. That would be kewl. :D

Dwayne

[Staceon]

Hello Dwayne,

You said in the past that you have seen them mate even with pumps on right? So the pumps off is mostly for collections reasons?

I watched that short video clip you have on your site. Do they actually release the sperm and eggs in the clip? Sorry its hard to see anything.

Where can you order live rotifers? How do you think ordering the live rotifers will work? Do you think you could keep ordering rotifers, or do you really need a culture to continue or at least produce a lot of fry? What is the cost of the live rotifers?

What food do you plan for after the rotifers?

Thanks....

[Dwayne]

I have seen them spawn with the pumps on. I turn the pumps off for collection reasons, makes it easier to get them when they aren't being sucked into the overflows.

Yeah the video is poor quality. No they do not release eggs/sperm in that clip. When they release, they seem to pause for a moment just under the water's surface.

There are a couple of places that offer live rotifers. Price depends on quantity. It is possible to have a regular shipment estsablished. I did order live rotifers before, but we'll just say there is a learning curve and leave it at that.;)

Rotifers should suffice for the first week or so, I hope. If it looks like I can make it past the rotifers, I'll order some small pods. If I make it past that point, I have a 40 gal tank that is just sitting and producing worms and pods. I guess I could extract pods from the 40, but I want to use a more qualified food source than an open tank.

Dwayne

[exodus]

Dwayne,

Completely fascinating and amazing!!! Once I get my clownfish to breed, mandarins may be next on my list! Heh. :)

As I was reading your posts, I noticed that you said you hadn't seen any of the larvae eat... as you can read in the Wilkerson book, this may be due to the fact that the rotifier density is not great enough. If the rotifiers aren't dense enough, the fish will not be able to eat enough and/or won't be able to accurrately strike the rotifiers since they are so far apart.

I wish you the best of luck and will be following this thread.

Cheers,

[Dwayne]

Exodus - I agree the rotifer density may be an issue. The problem has been getting the rotifers to a high enough density and having hacthing eggs at the same time. This has been complicated by my travel schedule lately. I'm hoping to order live rotifers for Friday delivery and have eggs hatch Saturday. Yeah, best laid plans. :)

Dwayne

[johnny]

dwayne,

just wanted to take some time to say GREAT JOB!

A few questions:

How old/what size were your mandarins before they started breeding?

How can you tell the difference in sex between mandarins?

Good luck to you, we're all wishing you the best..

Nick

[Dwayne]

The age of my fish at the start of this project is unknown. I had the female for a few months before I got the male. It only took 4 days before they were spawning. Both were approx.1 1/2" - 2" long when the spawning started.

The male has a large 'spike' on the dorsal fin. It can be difficult to tell the difference when the fish are young.

Dwayne

[Dwayne]

Been a little while since I updated this thread.

I have been able to get rotifers to culture. Yipee!:)

Now it seems I'm having trouble gettting the eggs to hatch. :(

I was able to get 4 eggs hatched from a Wednesday night batch. I have those now in a small container with greenwater/rotifers. They are still alive to this point. This isn't ground breaking yet, I've had the larvae live this long. The big test will be if they are alive this evening. If they are, I will be partying. :D:D:D:D

Dwayne

[johnny]

congrats on the rotifiers and good luck with the larvae!!! we'll be waiting for your success! :)

Nick

[Dwayne]

Well so far so good. The larvae have developed pec fins to the point of being able to identify them. They should start feeding on the rotifers today, maybe tomorrow. I only have two larve still living, but this is the farthest point of progress todate. :)

Dwayne

[billsreef]

Fantastic :)

[Dwayne]

I guess my excitement can be told be the increased number of posts. :)

I have a single living larvar/fry. Not sure if its a larvae or a fry. Guess I should check into that definition sometime. :)

This larvae is showing pec fins and I can actually see the tail 'wiggle' when it moves. Looking through a 8x eyepiece, I can see dark spots for internal organs, eyes (seen those for a day or so), and I can see what appears to be a point snout or mouth. This thing is still only a couple millimeter long at best.

Still got my fingers crossed!!!:D:D:D:D

Dwayne

[Genyochromis Mento]

Fascinating and dramatic thread....

This is my first post. Cangrats, Dwayne - this is more
interesting than watching "Survivor"!

[Lars E]

Genyochromis Mento - Welcome to ReefCentral!

Dwayne - Thanks for doing the research and pursuing this. The more ways we have to lessen the environmental impact of the hobby the better!!

I've got a mandarin on the list of animals to go in my tank. Now I'm not going to buy one. I'll wait until I can get a tank-raised one from you :)

Lars.

[Dwayne]

Ever notice sometimes the light at the end of the tunnel is an on-coming train. :eek1:

Oh well, time to gather more eggs.

Dwayne

[johnny]

bummer dwayne! Hey, you're getting closer though!! Any ideas on the causes for death?

Nick

[billsreef]

Sorry to hear the train got you this time :(
You already got further than most so keep the faith ;) Maybe the next batch will be one :)

[Dwayne]

Well, there were some close calls and it was a constant threat. It finally happened, my female went carpet surfing and did not survive.

I think some progress, at least for me, was made in a hobbyist ability to breed mandarins. I learned alot about several different aspects of raising any type of fish. I hope this thread was/is/will be of value to someone and their efforts in captive breeding.

Dwayne

[billsreef]

Sorry to hear about your female :(

You can take comfort in the fact that you most definately added much good info to the hobbyiest data base for breeding mandarins.

tagged for the archives

[johnny]

Dwayne,

Are you going to get another female and keep trying?

Nick

[Staceon]

Hi Dwayne,

I have never heard of a mandarin that jumped! Did she do that during the mating, or just in general? I am sorry about your loss. I do think a lot can be gained by this, and at the very least you have promted others like myself to at least think about trying this.

I have had a male for a while now and I have been thinking about getting a female, but how do you sex the female? The male was easy, he has a very large apendage coming from the first dorsal fin. Will a female have no apendage what so ever? Not even a stub, it will look rounded? Any other way to sex them?

Thanks again for all your time and effort that you put into this. I hope one day you will be trying this again.

[exodus]

Just wanted to convey my condolensces for your loss...

[Dwayne]

Alright, I had some time to think about this.

I will look for another female and continue my efforts. I got some eggcrate to 'seal' the back of the tank. I'll not only enclose the rear of the tank, but also around the overflows to prevent any future waterslide rides.

The female can be identified by not looking like a male. I know that sounds simple, but it's reality. The big danger is getting another male instead of a female. The mistake will be realized when the two are put in the same tank. They will fight and probably fight to the death.

So, I'll go back under my rock until I have larvae that have lived for a week. Yeah, like I'll stay gone that long.

Dwayne

[Tactstat]

Well, you have inspired me!

I think I am going to start a set up, and see if I can repeat your success.

How high is your tank, and does the pair utilize the entire height for their dance?

-Tac

[johnny]

Dwayne,

I know a fellow reefer who is looking to possibly get rid of his mandarin in New York... if you want I can sex it or have him sex it and see about shipping it to you?

Nick

[Dwayne]

Originally posted by Tactstat
Well, you have inspired me!

Glad to hear it!:D

I think I am going to start a set up, and see if I can repeat your success.

Hopefully you will be inclined to exceed my progress and actually raise some fry. ;)

How high is your tank, and does the pair utilize the entire height for their dance?

My tank is a standard AGA 125 gal. The pair danced all the way to the water surface.

-Tac

Dwayne

[Tactstat]

So roughly 20" of vertical swiming room? (asuming space for you sand bed, and base rock)

Hmm... now to find a tank I like thats 24" tall or so...

They will get there own tank, wohoo! I want an excuse to set me up another one!

-Tac

[johnny]

Tactstat,

Go with a 150g, it's the same dimensions as a 125 just 28" tall instead of 24".

Nick

[OrionN]

Any update Dwayne?

[Dwayne]

Minh - nothing worth reporting. I ended up lossing my male due to stupdity on my part. I left the cover off a powerhead intake and he got stuck inside.

I did get another female and she is still in the tank and thriving.

I still grow the phyto and such for tank feedings.

I recently changed jobs and have less time to dedicate to the breeding process, but one day I'll see a healthy male and get the urge to try again.

It was alot of fun and I learned a ton, not just about mandarins. The whole home grown culture information was very worthwhile and I've been able to share that knowledge with others.

And that is what its all about, freely exchanging information and hoping the next person is more successful than the last.

Dwayne

[FMarini]

Dwayne wrote:
that is what its all about, freely exchanging information and hoping the next person is more successful than the last.


Absolutely..what a great thread.
I recently checked out the breeders registry and you guys really have the ONLY real mandrin breeding info out there (including doing web searches).
I'll just sit back and keep reading
frank

[OrionN]

Dwayne,
Goodluck to you with your new job. I certainly know the feeling of not having enough time in the day to do things that we need to do. I got several species of fish spawn in my tank but really too busy to catch the larves and raise them.

[Dwayne]

Frank - Yeah, I couldn't find much info on them. I did manage to get that copy of a german article. Only significant info I could find. Some of the info on the registry was conflicting with my finds. Another reason I keep thinking about trying again.

Minh - thanks and good luck with your efforts.

Dwayne

[revoohc]

Dwayne,

Let me start off by saying a big THANK YOU, for your attempts and the running diary you provided.

I was wondering if you would detail the setup you were running. I'm most interested in what food cultures you were running (rotifers, etc) and how that setup worked. Also, if you could start over with what you know now, what changes would you make?

Once again, thanks so much for your efforts. You have really peaked my interest into possibly trying this myself.

revoohc

[Agu]

Regarding the food cultures, have you seen this http://www.reefcentral.com/diy/culture_station.htm ?

Agu

[fishymissy]

Dwayne~

first let me say that I have thoroughly enjoyed reading this thread! How far you have come! This is so awesome that you have shared your successes and mistakes, thank you!

Next I wanted to say how sorry I was to hear about the fish dying, I too have lost fish to the dumbest accidents! I once had an uptake tube that was fairly old, and when I was cleaning, I accidently broke the tube above the strainer. Since it was late at night, I thought no problem, I would get a new tube the next day. In the meantime, one of the fish thought it would be a good time to go on a little adventure!:(

The last thing was I went to see Diver Dan! hahahahahahahaha!!!!!!!!


I used to watch Diver Dan on the Ray Rayner show (in Chicago) and I loved it!
Jeez....that makes me feel so old

[Dwayne]

Hahaha! Agu, you must be the reason I get so many emails about the culture station. (its no problem, glad to help)

What would I do different?

Succeed, stay with a "low paying, low satisfaction" job until I had baby mandarins. I can't say I would really do anything different. I think the process was developing itself, even though it was trial and error.

Food Culutres?

Well, I can't say for sure I was on track with the larvae food, but I felt it was in the right direction. It might actually take something smaller than rotifers for the initial feedings.

The cultures were/are great for the tank as a whole. I noticed incredible pod growth, but due to high nutrients there was nuisance algae. The tank really looked good as a result of the live food feedings.

Diary?

Reading this forum is what gave me the idea to try. I figured the least I could do, in keeping with the Reef Central philosophy, was to report back my trial and tribulations.


If anyone can use this information, please do. I only ask, if you do use this information, let me know how you do and what you do differently.

Dwayne

[67muscle]

As far as size of the food you might wanna try freshwater fleas or daphnia (sp?) the adult ones might be too big but they have babies as well that are small but it sounds like they might even be too big. I've never seen rotifers so. And yes they are freshwater creatures but...might be worth a look. Also I'm not sure but your mortality rate might be because of not so clean water maybe? Just a thought. All that green water and dying off rotifers causing an ammonia spike?
Also with the cultures (if anyone decides to try again) you might try using 5 or even 3 5gal water jugs (the ones in offices and use the same set-up on a larger scale as the article) so you can take a fine brine shrimp net or something even finer like a hankercheif etc and net out the rotifers for a super concentrated batch of rotifers to put in with the larvae. I have done the daphnia thing and they were really easy to keep don't know about the rotifers though. I did the water fleas on a small scale as well except I had a continuous supply of green water from a 10gal with 3 decent sized goldfish fed maybe once every other day and airpumps for a little circulation. Lights were on 24/7 but it also got sunlight cause it was next to a window in the basement. I used one 18" flourecent.

To switch it over to saltwater you could use basically the same thing with some hardy fish like damsels etc and even throw in a piece or 2 of shrimp etc to decompose. It was a bare bottom tank with just a small airpump very little circulation. I don't think circulation would matter much but it doesn't hurt. No powerheads. I did start it off with a little green water culture and it took off from there. Also make sure to scrape the glass and not have algea growing on the glass cause it will compete with the micro growing in the water. The idea is to have alot/excess nutrients constantly producing for the micro algea to comsume. I took 5gals of fresh green water a week and replaced it with tap water. Let me tell you...I've never seen healthier goldfish ever. Also it was sitting next to a west window in a basement so it got a couple good hours of sunlight. An east or west window would do the trick.

Maybe this will help someone maybe not but that's my experience with cultures.

edit
Just one last thing...it took the water fleas like a week (more than a couple days) to turn the green water almost clear and that's when they were concentrated.

[Dwayne]

Hey 67,

Thanks for reading this thread, rumor says it cures insomnia. :)

I think the lose of larvae was due to changing the water too frequently. Maybe the water was too clean.

I had the larvae live to the point of the yolk sac being depleted and the larvae needing to fend for themselves. I'm not sure if death resulted in food being too large or water params being inadequate. I really lean towards water being to clean. This is based on conversations with folks that have seen Mandarins in their native habitat. Dr. Ron was here once and saw my set-up, he said "it looks like mandarin habitat". Of course this was his opinion and others may differ. Knowing I was hatching/rearing eggs in a different environment ( differnet tank than the mating pair), makes me think, possibly the water was too clean. In this context, clean means nutrient deficient or at least lacking the 'correct' nutrients.

The cultures were never really a problem. They seemed to be like Energizer Bunnies and just keep going and going and going and....etc. I was offered the advise to try daphnia and (something that escapes my memory but starts with "cil") as alternatives to rotifers. I just never got to the point of trying them.

I think if/when I try again, I will concern myself with the 'right' culture once I can consistantly successfully raise larvae to the point of yolk sac depletion.

Dwayne

[67muscle]

If you do try again I was reading a couple baggai breeding posts and maybe prawn eggs would be a suitable food source. It's hard to say but you've probly got further than most. Wish I had a bigger tank so I could try. Definitly good stuff. Did you net out the rotifers so there was a large concentration to feed em? That's about the only thing I could think of besides the rotifers maybe being too big. There are also some cultures that are terestrial (feed on oatmeal) and some that you culture in apple cider vinegar both are very small. I used those for some freshwater fry I had a couple years ago. I got an old book on cultures that I can look through if your interested, covers pretty much everything. I could probly scan it also.

PS this thread definitly cured my insomnia last night :)

[LiquidShaneo]

67muscle,

The terrestrial cultures you're referring to are microworms (grow like MAD in damp oatmeal or even on wet bread http://members.optushome.com.au/chelmon/microwrm.htm ) and vinegar eels (grown in 50% acetic acid http://members.optushome.com.au/chelmon/vinegar.htm ). I've used both for rearing of M.boesemani rainbowfish (freshwater Australian fish) and they both work well. Not sure what would happen to them if they were used for marine culture of fish -- not sure if the worms would die/explode from salinity shock or what would happen). If you or anyone is interested in a culture I can provide one. E-mail me offlist (addy is in my profile). Microworms are *incredibly* easy to culture FWIW. Drop them in damp oatmeal and keep them in the dark at room temperature and you can pretty much ignore the culture for 6-8 weeks before it crashes.

FWIW,

Shane (aka 'liquid' on #reefcentral)